2 Samuel 14:4 We must all die; we are like water spilled on the ground, which cannot be gathered up again. But God will not take away life, and he devises means so that the banished one will not remain an outcast.
A rather rhetorical question for the "Hell is FOREVER" crowd
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The "Hell is FOREVER" crowd often become triggered when presented with the word of God.
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
Seems they have a difficult time separating themselves from their beliefs.
A discussion of differing opinions is too often taken as a personal attack.
I go where the word of God takes me, not where my ego might want to go.
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
Well, they have a biblical defense as well. Even if we don't agree with it.
As I have often said, I respect anyone that has done their homework and come to a decision.
I know that positions can change. I have certainly changed my position over time.
Most likely, so have you. Which means... education is key.
Keep up the good work, brother.
It's not as much me disagreeing with their interpretation as much as it is their rejection of a plethora of God's statements. It doesn't get any clearer than this.
2 Samuel 14:4 We must all die; we are like water spilled on the ground, which cannot be gathered up again. But God will not take away life, and he devises means so that the banished one will not remain an outcast.
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
No reason to separate themselves from the their beliefs or the scriptures...
Hebrews 6:4-8
4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame. 7 For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; 8 but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.
Hebrews 10: 26-31
26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge His people.” 31 It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
2nd Peter 2:1-30
But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves. Many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of the truth will be maligned; 3 and in their greed they will exploit you with false words; their judgment from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.
2nd Corinthians :5:10: For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
1st Corinthians 6:9-10 “Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor those habitually drunk, nor verbal abusers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God”
Galatians 5:19-21 Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: sexual immorality, impurity, indecent behavior, idolatry, witchcraft, hostilities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions,
envy, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Matthew 3:12 His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor and gather his wheat into the barn, but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire.”
Matthew 5:22 But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire.
Matthew 5:29 If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell.
Matthew 5:30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body go into hell.
Matthew 8:12 While the sons of the kingdom will be thrown into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”
Matthew 13:41-42 The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 13:50 And throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 18:9 And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into the hell of fire.
Matthew 23:33 You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell?
Matthew 24:51 And will cut him in pieces and put him with the hypocrites. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 25:41 Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
Matthew 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
Mark 9:43 And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire.
Mark 9:45 And if your foot offend you, cut if off: it is better to you to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched.
Mark 9:48 where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.
Luke 3:17 His winnowing fork is in his hand, to clear his threshing floor and to gather the wheat into his barn, but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire.”
Luke 12:5 But I will warn you whom to fear: fear him who, after he has killed, has authority to cast into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him!
Luke 16:19-31 “There was a rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. And at his gate was laid a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores, who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man's table. Moreover, even the dogs came and licked his sores. The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried, and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side.
John 5:28-29 Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.
2nd Thessalonians 1:8-9 In flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,
Jude 1:7 Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.
Hebrews 6:4-8
4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame. 7 For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; 8 but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.
Hebrews 10: 26-31
26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge His people.” 31 It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
2nd Peter 2:1-30
But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves. Many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of the truth will be maligned; 3 and in their greed they will exploit you with false words; their judgment from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.
2nd Corinthians :5:10: For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
1st Corinthians 6:9-10 “Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor those habitually drunk, nor verbal abusers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God”
Galatians 5:19-21 Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: sexual immorality, impurity, indecent behavior, idolatry, witchcraft, hostilities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions,
envy, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Matthew 3:12 His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor and gather his wheat into the barn, but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire.”
Matthew 5:22 But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire.
Matthew 5:29 If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell.
Matthew 5:30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body go into hell.
Matthew 8:12 While the sons of the kingdom will be thrown into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”
Matthew 13:41-42 The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 13:50 And throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 18:9 And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into the hell of fire.
Matthew 23:33 You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell?
Matthew 24:51 And will cut him in pieces and put him with the hypocrites. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 25:41 Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
Matthew 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
Mark 9:43 And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire.
Mark 9:45 And if your foot offend you, cut if off: it is better to you to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched.
Mark 9:48 where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.
Luke 3:17 His winnowing fork is in his hand, to clear his threshing floor and to gather the wheat into his barn, but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire.”
Luke 12:5 But I will warn you whom to fear: fear him who, after he has killed, has authority to cast into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him!
Luke 16:19-31 “There was a rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. And at his gate was laid a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores, who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man's table. Moreover, even the dogs came and licked his sores. The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried, and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side.
John 5:28-29 Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.
2nd Thessalonians 1:8-9 In flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,
Jude 1:7 Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
Revelation 14:10 He also will drink the wine of God's wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.
Revelation 19:20 And the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who in its presence had done the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped its image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur.
Revelation 20:10 And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Revelation 20:12-15--- 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.
Revelation 21:8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.
Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.
Revelation 19:20 And the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who in its presence had done the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped its image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur.
Revelation 20:10 And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Revelation 20:12-15--- 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.
Revelation 21:8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
That saw cuts both ways. Could not the other side of this discussion say the same thing about us?
All three of the biblical views of the final judgement are in conflict with each other. We can agree that UR is the preferable view.
But the others won't readily accept that they are rejecting the clear statements of the Bible.
Thanks for pointing out that scripture. I don't recall seeing it before.
Added to my UR notebook.
Young's Literal Translation (YLT) - Version Information - BibleGateway.com
www.biblegateway.com
Young's Literal Translation - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
Okay, thank you.
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
Here's an example.
Matthew 25:46 YLT
And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
Banished one....what?
2nd Samuel 14:14 .... Apples and oranges! You a Jew now?
There is ALWAYS a “this and that” choice, in ALL things.
THAT “this and that”, by default Effects a DIVISION.
Spiritually, the “this and that”, is the DIVISION....WITH or WITHOUT the Lord God Almighty.
The “CHOICE” one makes IN “ALL” things HAS Consequences. (Positive and Negative).
Choose the Lord God....= Positive Consequences VIA Lord God.
Choose the Lord God....= Negative Consequences VIA anti-Lord God crowd.
Choose anti-Lord God....= Positive Consequences VIA anti-Lord God crowd.
Choose anti-Lord God....= Negative Consequences VIA Lord God.
POINT BEING...
An individual man IS ALWAYS subject to ... positive and negative consequences....
WHO the individual man CHOOSES to STAND “WITH”, determines WHO WILL be FOR and AGAINST him.
Consequences have a RANGE....
”TEMPORARY Divisional Punishment”...based on ones “choice”...(designed to give one opportunity to make an other “choice”)
“Sentencing”....follows TEMPORARY “division” Punishment....(which is designed to DETERMINE a PERMANENT “division” VIA “forever Separation”.)
Scripturally...
~ Against the Lord God....an admonishment.
Secularly...
~ Against secular law.......a feather tap.
Scripturally...
~ Against the Lord God.....Divided FROM the Lord. Divided FROM God.
Secularly...
~ Against secular law........Divided FROM Society.
Scripturally...
~ With the Lord God.....With the Lord...With God.
Secularly...
~ With secular law........With secular society.
Scripturally...
~ BOUND (via ones heartful WORD, via GIVING your LIFE) to the Lord God.
FOREVER divided AND Separated WITH, unto ONLY, the Lord God Forever.
secularly...
~ BOUND (via ones WORD, SIGNATURE, OATH agreement) to Societal Law...
a free for all, maybe, maybe not, intended lie, unknown to the people at large. It’s an After the Fact, guesswork of whether or not ones WORD, SIGNATURE, OATH agreement IS upstanding or underhanded.
Point is, REGARDLESS of what an individual chooses....there IS ALWAYS positive and negative consequences....
The Difference IS; WHO is the POWER which Pronounces the positive and negative consequences.
The Reality IS;
* Human men are LIMITED to control, kill, divide, forgive, separate, ONLY the Bodily Portion OF a Human man.
* God...the Lord...have NO LIMIT pertaining to controlling, killing, punishing, forgiving, dividing, separating, keeping....the Body, Soul, Spirit....OF a Human man.
God Himself effected DIVISION of His Creations.
...(Heaven/Earth; Earth/Hell; With Him/WITHOUT Him; etc.)
God Himself effected EXPRESS DIVISION of People.
...(Hebrew, Tribes, ISRAEL, Jews FROM Gentiles)
The Lord Himself effected EXPRESS DIVISION of People.
...(With Him/WITHOUT Him; IN Him/OUTSIDE of Him, without regard to Hebrews, Tribes, ISRAEL, Jews OR Gentiles).
IN the END of DAYS (as we humans are accustomed to LIFE on EARTH....
HE with GREAT POWER.... SHALL commence effecting HIS POWER, FOR SEPARATING the DIVIDED...”WITH and WITHOUT” HIM.
* HE the Lord, (aka the Lamb,) with Great Power, BEGINS His SEPARATING.
(Rev 6:16)
* HE satan, (aka the Devil,) with Great Power, Secondly Begins His SEPARATING.
(Rev 12:2)
HE God, (aka Creator), with Great Power, Thirdly and Lastly Begins His SEPARATING.
(Rev 16:1)
Point Being...
Human men MAKE their own freewill choices...
In a world of Mortal men; Power, Tribulations, Oppressions will always be effected by men over men.
In the end of days, a mans POWER shall be MOOT, and ALL power OVER men SHALL Be effected BY SPIRITUAL Means.
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
I choose not to believe that. - LOL
You do have a point about choices leading to consequences.
But God, by his mercy can choose all.
Thanks for the detailed post. That took some effort.
I respect your right to a position on this. Glad you are here.
Thank you.
There are CHOICES, (with or without), God, the Lord, even society, that which
Is evident, ONLY during a mans BODILY Life (blood) time.
From my understanding, the Lords timeframe FOR a saved man (during the Last Great tribulation sent down from Heaven), parallels Gods timeframe FOR a Saved man (as was during the First Great tribulation sent down from Heaven.)
Gen. 7
[16] And they that went in, went in male and female of all flesh, as God had commanded him: and the LORD shut him in.
[17] And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lift up above the earth.
Matt 7
[21] Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
[22] Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
[23] And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
1 Thes 4:
[16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
[17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
In other words, the CAVEAT;
WHO, begins their WRATH first? The Lord
WHO, rises WHO, up to Him? The Lord, the saved, up off the face of the Earth.
Wrath of: the Lamb, the Devil, God....are Spiritual responses to REJECTION...OF men ON the face of the EARTH.
Great Tribulation IS: Tribulations, sent down from Heaven, with Great spiritual power, (unto the Lamb, the Devil, God) AGAINST unrighteousnessUPON the Men, UPON the face of the Earth.
Rom 1:
[18] For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Great Tribulation, Great meaning Spiritual Powers, sent down from Heaven.
Great Tribulations, OF THOSE days, notifies us, of the revealed, “sets” of tribulations...ie 7 SEALS, 7 TRUMPS, 7 VIALS...and WHO is etheir WRATH (anger) for rejection.
It’s more in-depth and rather difficult to put into a forum space.
However, it was the Lord who revealed the Good News of a new better Testament, for a man to BE MADE “WHOLE”, body, soul, spirit, VIA crucifixion with Christ, while remaining alive in his Blood Life, and thereafter NOT appointed to suffer Wrath sent down from Heaven.
Such man are already ACCOUNTED as having given their LIFE (body) unto the Lord ....
Nothing indicates they (LIKE Noah), remain on the face of the Earth to suffer, the Lambs, the Devils, Gods Wrath.
Certainly men ON the face of the Earth, will experience tribulations, and SOME will be willing to bodily DIE, “for” their belief in God, belief in Jesus...and THOSE...shall be SAVED, and risen UP to the face OF a new EARTH...after the millennial .... oops lightening hit gotta go check...
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
Behold
Well-Known Member
Reader.
Let me ask you a some questions..
Is God real?
Is Jesus risen?
Does God believe the Devil exists?
Do you?
So, if you believe in a literal Devil, then here are 3 more questions for you.
Would the DEVIL want you to believe that there is no Hell?
If that is True, then How would the DEVIL post a Thread that taught about Hell to try to convince you that Hell does not Exist. ?
Who would He use to do that?
Let me ask you a some questions..
Is God real?
Is Jesus risen?
Does God believe the Devil exists?
Do you?
So, if you believe in a literal Devil, then here are 3 more questions for you.
Would the DEVIL want you to believe that there is no Hell?
If that is True, then How would the DEVIL post a Thread that taught about Hell to try to convince you that Hell does not Exist. ?
Who would He use to do that?
Yipes that was loud and shaking. Was pitch dark, raining, swift moving water on the ground and think it hit the barn. Animals scattered out of the barn and cuddled under their open pasture “playpen” decks. Bulbs blew out of sockets and switches toasted. About an hour later had another round of incredible seconds lasting lighting bolts a bit to the east of us. We are in a very hilly and forestry area, our buildings sit high and get regular high winds and ponds fill and over flow quickly…typically on the edge of severe storms and tornados…but last night worst of cells passed directly over. Daylight coming and will assess any structure damage and fix wiring issues. Bodily we and animals all okay.
More storms in forecast for next few days, east Tx a couple of hours north of gulf.
Thank you for inquiring.
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