A rather rhetorical question for the "Hell is FOREVER" crowd

[St. SteVen]

Actually, it is God who is the final authority, I believe.

That's a great point, Bob.
Opinions about what the Bible says, or means, vary widely.
Ultimately it is up to God.

 

[St. SteVen]

You will see for yourself when you meet him face to face..

I have a theory that everyone will be surprised at where they end up in the afterlife.
Love this quote from Jesus to the religious people of his day.

Matthew 21:31 NIV
... Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, the tax collectors and the prostitutes
are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you.

 

[St. SteVen]

The prevailing view among most Christians is that God is a LOSER and that he is cruel and unforgiving and incapable of persuading his children to follow him.

Exactly.
And they put the "will" of humans ahead of the will of God. as if He is INCAPABLE of saving all.
Offering us a God who painted himself into a corner.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I have a theory that everyone will be surprised at where they end up in the afterlife.
Love this quote from Jesus to the religious people of his day.

Matthew 21:31 NIV
... Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, the tax collectors and the prostitutes
are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you.

He also said this.

Matt 7: 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

There will be a departure.. They will be cast to outer darkness. And it will be for all eternity.

He who believes is not condemned, He who does not believe is condemned already.

 

[Jack]

Hell will be filled with people who don't believe in Hell!

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Exactly.
And the put the "will" of humans ahead of the will of God. as if He is INCAPABLE of saving all.
Offering us a God who painted himself into a corner.

God is capable of doing everything.

But he will not force people against their will. If he did that people would be mad he made them robots. And is nto a god of Love. Just like satan says he is..

 

[Taken]

The ESV translation is erroneous. How do I know? If it's true that souls are damned FOREVER then 1 Timothy 4:10 (and many other verses) is FALSE.

1 Tim 4:
[10] For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

In Context...
WE...who believe... LABOR (speak our belief IN the Lord God)

WE...who believe... SUFFER (others speaking their denial, disapproval of our belief)

WE...who believe... SUSTAIN (the disapproval of others,) and CONTINUE to speak our belief IN the Lord God.

WE...who believe...TRUST (ONLY the Lord God IS the Savior of all men).

WE...who believe...TRUST (the Lord God IS the Savior of ALL men that believe).

Your challenge is ....
DOES the Lord God ..... SAVE “ALL” men...or NOT “ALL” men.

The FACT is:
WE...who believe...TRUST “ANY MAN” ALL MEN, who RECEIVES the GIFT of Salvation, IS a Gift, ONLY GIVEN BY THE LORD GOD HIMSELF.

The FACT is:
WE....who believe...Personally, Individually, KNOW our OWN TRUE BELIEF...(and what others TRULY believe...is simply (an others) Indicative, Guesswork, Suspect.

ONLY, the individual AND the Lord God.....TRULY know an individuals BELIEF.

The FACT is:
The Lord God IS the ONLY Savior....of ALL, ANY, men.

The FACT is:
The Lord God “SHALL” Save....WHOM “HE” WILL.

The FACT is:
Those WHO believe...shall be Saved.
Those WHO believe AND confess their belief....are Saved.

The question is: DEFINE “WHO”.../(what exactly...IS BELIEVING...and condition thereof.

WHO....a mans flesh body > Believing > condition ALIVE> its life >BLOOD
WHO....a mans soul > Believing > condition ALIVE> its life Gods BREATH.

The question is:
DO..WILL..ALL men’s FLESH LIVING BODY’S....BELIEVE in the Lord God? No.
DO..ALL men’s SOULS...BELIEVE in the Lord God? No.
WILL...ALL mens’ SOULS...BELIEVE in the Lord God? YES!
WILL..ALL mens’ believing SOULS...thereafter BE given a Glorified BODY? No.

Gods ORDER and WAY for a man to RECEIVE Gods GIFT of SALVATION...
REQUIRES...a mans....BODY and SOUL to heartfully BELIEVE...(in the Lord God)...
BEFORE THE MANS BODILY PHYSICAL DEATH.

WHY?
Because AFTER a mans BODILY PHYSICAL DEATH...his body KNOWS, nothing. A man KNOWING NOTHING, can not confess a BELIEF to anything.

Dead body’s of the UNBELIEVING man ... SHALL BE RAISED UP ... WHEN it’s Living soul “returns to it’s body”. (The body’s BLOOD (life), not not return to it’s dead body.
The BODY and SOUL shall be JUDGED.
The Living soul, SHALL SEE the JUDGE (Lord God), BELIEVE, cause the BODY to bow down and WORSHIP the Lord God.

(This FULFILLS Gods PROPHECY....)
ALL SHALL “BELIEVE”...ALL SHALL “WORSHIP” the Lord God)
ALL....SOULS...fulfill BELIEVING.
ALL....BODYS...fulfill WORSHIPING (bowing down to).

However ^^ that DOES NOT fulfill Gods “ORDER and WAY” to receive SALVATION.

Gods “ORDER and WAY” to receive the Lord Gods GIFT of SALVATION...
REQUIRES...AN ALIVE BODY WITH it’s LIVING SOUL IN that ALIVE BODY.....Heartfully BELIEVING IN the Lord God.

And WHO assuredly KNOWS...IF an alive body, with it’s Living Soul IN that Alive body...
Heartfully BELIEVES IN the Lord God?
The individual and the Lord God Himself.

ALL souls SHALL believe.
ALL body’s SHALL worship.
ALL souls shall NOT be Saved.
ALL body’s shall NOT be Saved.
ALL whose spirits are quickened (born again, ie baptized of the Holy Spirit)...
SHALL be, soul saved, spirit born again, body glorified.

All living body’s that physically DIE rejecting the Lord God, IS their LIFE (BLOOD) dead. Is the Breath of Life shall depart their soul and return to God. Is their lifeless (void of Blood) Body and their lifeless (void of Gods Breath) Soul...be destroyed in hell and forgotten....(and their natural spirit? Never born again also destroyed.)

 

[Taken]

Thank you.
The church is so uncomfortable with the hell fire and brimstone doctrine that it has
softened it to "eternal separation" from God. Whatever that means to you.
Yet this is in direct conflict with God's omnipresence.

Furthermore, it is a questionable solution to God's justice. An eternal punishment for a finite crime.
Especially for a God who is in the business of reconciling humankind to himself.

God is a God........OF.......the LIVING.
Gods omnipresence Does not mean God is “WITH” or “IN” every individual.

 

[Wrangler]

Non-existence is not a place.

Here's a curious thing.
The same chapter, that the apologetic for unconscious nonexistence
in the afterlife comes from, also contains this verse below.
(as in "the dead know nothing" vs 5)

Ecclesiates 9:10 NIV
Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might,
for in the realm of the dead, where you are going,
there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom.

I did not say "the realm of the dead" is not a place. I said nonexistence is not a place.

 

[Taken]

Here's a curious thing.
The same chapter, that the apologetic for unconscious nonexistence
in the afterlife comes from, also contains this verse below.
(as in "the dead know nothing" vs 5)

Ecclesiates 9:10 NIV
Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might,
for in the realm of the dead, where you are going,
there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom.

ALL scripture is TRUE.

Scripture is a BOOK OF KNOWLEDGE...about the Lord God Almighty, about His “Creations”, about who, what, how, when, why...He “Makes” something particular, exclusive to His Individual Creations.

ALL scripture DOES NOT apply the same to EVERY individual.

Individuals FREELY decide, choose, what, when, why...God WILL “MAKE” something particular APPLY to that Individual...

The Individual CAN Freely CHOOSE to BELIEVE the Knowledge...repeatedly revealed in Scripture...
“IF” a man “DOES” “THIS”...”THEN” the Lord God in Response shall “DO” “THAT”, as Scripture reveals the Knowledge thereof.

ALL the DOING....this and that...is revealed in Scripture....YET, specific, DOING, “this and that”....is ONLY applicable to the INDIVIDUAL himself, who does “this or that”.

WHEN...Scripture teaches....to do this, and I do....ALL the Scriptures that warn men about doing that, which I don’t do....Has NO application or relevance to me.

Scripture teaches EXACTLY, PRECISELY....
HOW TO....be “WITH” the Lord God...and inturn He will be WITH you.
HOW TO....be “IN” the Lord God...and inturn He will be IN you.
HOW TO....be “WITHOUT” the Lord God...and inturn He will be WITHOUT you.

So does SOME Scripture APPEAR contradictory?
ONLY “IF” you are TRYING to APPLY a position of Scripture TO THAT WHICH it DOES NOT APPLY.

Some men ARE REJECTING God and His Word, adhering to their OWN word, that God and His Word is NON-existant.

Some men ARE in wonderment, unsure, vacillating, maybe, maybe not.

Some men (unsure, sure) and ARE HOPING to become (soul) SAVED, (spirit) quickened and (body) glorified.

Some men ARE assuredly (soul) SAVED, (spirit) quickened and IN WAITING (not hoping, rather trusting in God is faithful), and SHALL glorify their body, according to HIS order and way.
^^^^ And for THAT man, the majority of Scripture DOES NO LONGER APPLY.

It is not that Scripture is contradictory...It is rather, a false application thereof.

 

[Taken]

Thank you.
The church is so uncomfortable with the hell fire and brimstone doctrine that it has
softened it to "eternal separation" from God. Whatever that means to you.
Yet this is in direct conflict with God's omnipresence.

Furthermore, it is a questionable solution to God's justice. An eternal punishment for a finite crime.
Especially for a God who is in the business of reconciling humankind to himself.

Punishment is neither a crime or injustice.

Gods OWN WORD foretells...DO this, expect that...whether the DOING, is with or against God....The Expected Result is not Secret.

Gods Results (with or without God)....were spoken, written, published, FOR any man to know.

Eternal Separation from God...IS in fact a RESULT for any individual man WHO has freely chosen to REJECT God.

God HAS openly revealed, His GRACE, of Forgiveness to ANY, ALL men (alive in their body’s), being AGAINST God, THEN CHOOSING TO BE WITH GOD...
By Gods GRACE, He forgives, and TAKES that individual INTO HIS FOLD.

God HAS openly revealed, His MERCY, for ANY, ALL men (who REJECT Him)...
THAT He WITHHOLDS giving them EVERLASTING LIFE!
THEY NOT being GIVEN Everlasting LIFE.....MEANS their Eternal Separation FROM GOD....IS NOT Eternally LIVING WITHOUT GOD.

The ONLY “beings” that can EXPERIENCE ETERNAL LIVING WITHOUT GOD...
Are “CREATED and MADE” holy celestial angel spirits....CREATED and MADe “WITH” Gods TRUTH....WHO freely chose to go Against Gods Truth...full well knowing....they forfeited THEIR HOLINESS, and there is NO FORGIVENESS for a celestial angelic spirit....Created and Made HAVING Gods TRUTH....and freely Choosing to REJECT Gods Truth.
....THEY WHO REJECT....CAN NOT DIE....YET CAN and WILL FOREVER remain ALIVE...AND Separated from God FOREVER.

Earthly Terrestrial men...are NOT created “WITH” Gods Truth....THEY individually decide, IF, they want to hear it, learn it, believe it, reject it....
REJECT? Forever they will BE DEAD and SEPARATED from God and from the Living...return to dust and forgotten.

 

[Wrangler]

Have you read Luke 16? The rich man died but was tormented in the fire.

Does it make sense to compare a parable to reality in that way?

 

[Grailhunter]

Exactly.
And the put the "will" of humans ahead of the will of God. as if He is INCAPABLE of saving all.
Offering us a God who painted himself into a corner.

No one said He could not save all.....He is just not going to do that.
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’ Matthew 7:21-23

I have about 30 other verses if you want them.

 

[Jack]

Does it make sense to compare a parable to reality in that way?

What parable?

 

[Michiah-Imla]

 

[Wrangler]

What parable?

Luke 16 is a parable. The NLT section beginning v19 is specifically called a parable.

It is unique in that it has a persons name, Lazarus. However, the rich man remains unnamed in the parable, as does Lazarus’ brothers.

 

[Grailhunter]

“For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it. Matthew 7:14

 

[Grailhunter]

Last thing I remember, I was running for the door. I had to find the passage back to the place I was before. "Relax," said the night man. "We are programmed to receive. You can check out any time you like, But you can never leave."

 

[dev553344]

Well I've read the bible and I'm not sure spirit prison is eternal. But clearly the lake of fire is.

 

[Grailhunter]

Universalism....
I just wish the fantasy religions would show more imagination.....if the scriptures don't mean anything to them, the sky is the limit. Maybe mix Christianity with the Lord of the Rings and Ancient Aliens....Christ could be the master of the ring and an alien UFO pilot that falls in love with Hilary Clinton. Together they spread the Good News! Peace, Love, and smoke pot. Bread, wine, pot, and orgies. And Christ saves them all and they go to Heaven stoned!

A kinder gentler Christianity?