A rather rhetorical question for the "Hell is FOREVER" crowd

[Behold]

I believe in the word of God.

1 Corinthians 15:28 When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all.

Except for John and Judas.......all the apostles were murdered.

Why?
Because they were telling the world that there is a Heaven to be gained and a Hell to be avoided.

If Hell was not to be avoided, and everyone was going to Heaven, then there would be no reason for the Apostles to die, or for a GOSPEL to be preached to the LOST< as there would be no lost.


You have to think.

 

[PinSeeker]

I believe in the word of God.

As do I.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Patrick1966]

Ah, so you are a universalist, is that right? That I would strongly disagree with, because the Word of God clearly says that universalism is not true. If you are a universalist, then how do you reconcile that with Romans 8-11, where this same Paul who wrote his letter to the Ephesians writes:

"For those whom He foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom He predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified... not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel... He says to Moses, 'I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.' So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, Who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, 'For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed in all the earth.' So then He has mercy on whomever He wills, and He hardens whomever He wills... Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump done vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show His wrath and to make known His power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of His glory for vessels of mercy, which He has prepared beforehand for glory ~ even us whom He has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?... Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And in this way all Israel will be saved..."

Again, I'm refraining from making any assumptions about what you believe, but do you not see from what Paul says here that Israel is a subset of all humanity?

Grace and peace to you.

Why give you my petty words instead of God's?

1 Corinthians 15:28 When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all.

 

[Patrick1966]

Because they were telling the world that there is a Heaven to be gained and a Hell to be avoided.

Yes, Hell exists. Yes, it is to be avoided. Those who are faithful in Christ are spared from Hell. Those sent to Hell will, eventually, join God in his kingdom.

Romans 11:32 esv
For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.

 

[Patrick1966]

As do I.

If you believe this then you too believe in universal salvation.

Luke 3:6 and all flesh shall see the salvation of God

 

[PinSeeker]

Why give you my petty words instead of God's?

1 Corinthians 15:28 When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all.

You're avoiding my question. Yes, the Word of God is what it is. But I'm asking you how you reconcile what seem to be, to you, two passages from God's Word (and even coming from the same person, Paul) contradictory. Of course, they're not contradictory at all, and you would agree with that, I'm sure, but still, I know you don't mean to, but, how ever inadvertent, you're making the Ephesians passage you cited out to be contradictory to the Romans passage I cited. How do you, personally, reconcile the two? It shouldn't be a hard question for you to answer.

If you believe this then you too believe in universal salvation.

Luke 3:6 and all flesh shall see the salvation of God

Nope. Again ~ and this is not the first time I've asked you this question, Patrick ~ what do think Luke means with respect to the word 'see' there? I'll give you two alternatives:

1. 'see,' as in obtain,​

2. 'see,' as in understand and acknowledge​

Although you may claim there is no difference there, those are two different things. One may understand and acknowledge something, but yet still never actually obtain it. Such is the case with the salvation of God; God's Word is crystal clear in enunciating that. Since you quote Luke here, we can even look also at what Luke himself writes later in his gospel. In Luke 23, Jesus, on the cross, says to the thief crucified on His right, "Surely you will be with Me in paradise this day," while to the thief crucified on His left, he says nothing. And in Jesus's parable in Luke 16, Jesus quotes Abraham telling the deceased rich man, "between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us."

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Patrick1966]

Patrick ~ what do think Luke means with respect to the word 'see' there?

That all will receive salvation.

 

[Patrick1966]

Romans 8-11

Where does Romans contradict universal salvation? I read it. I don't see it.

 

[PinSeeker]

Yes, Hell exists. Yes, it is to be avoided. Those who are faithful in Christ are spared from Hell. Those sent to Hell will, eventually, join God in his kingdom.

Romans 11:32 esv
For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.

Ah, but you're (inadvertently) taking Romans 11:32 out of the context of that very passage, specifically 11:25-32. Let's look at it:

Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written,​

​

“The Deliverer will come from Zion, He will banish ungodliness from Jacob and this will be my covenant with them when I take away their sins.”​

​

As regards the gospel, they are enemies for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. For just as you were at one time disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience, so they too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may now receive mercy. For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.​

Yes, He may have mercy on all, but that does not mean that He does have mercy on all; He does not, but only Israel, which is not all people. And here, it is very clear that the partial hardening on Israel, will be at some point removed, and all Israel will be saved. So, all Israel ~ His Israel ~ not all people. As Paul writes just a few verses earlier, not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. And Israel itself is a subset of all people. It's a hard truth, but truth it is.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

That all will receive salvation.

Nope. See above.

Where does Romans contradict universal salvation? I read it. I don't see it.

Again, see above. I understand that you don't see it...

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Patrick1966]

but you're (inadvertently) taking Romans 11:32 out of the context of that very passage, specifically 11:25-32. Let's look at it:

Your point is well taken. Thank you for sharing that with me.

 

[Patrick1966]

Nope. See above.


Again, see above. I understand that you don't see it...

Grace and peace to you.

What about 1 Timothy 4:10? If Jesus doesn't actually save all men, then he is not the savior of all men, right?

1 Timothy 4
English Standard Version
Some Will Depart from the Faith
4 Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons, 2 through the insincerity of liars whose consciences are seared, 3 who forbid marriage and require abstinence from foods that God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. 4 For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, 5 for it is made holy by the word of God and prayer.

A Good Servant of Christ Jesus
6 If you put these things before the brothers,[a] you will be a good servant of Christ Jesus, being trained in the words of the faith and of the good doctrine that you have followed. 7 Have nothing to do with irreverent, silly myths. Rather train yourself for godliness; 8 for while bodily training is of some value, godliness is of value in every way, as it holds promise for the present life and also for the life to come. 9 The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance. 10 For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe.

11 Command and teach these things. 12 Let no one despise you for your youth, but set the believers an example in speech, in conduct, in love, in faith, in purity. 13 Until I come, devote yourself to the public reading of Scripture, to exhortation, to teaching. 14 Do not neglect the gift you have, which was given you by prophecy when the council of elders laid their hands on you. 15 Practice these things, immerse yourself in them,[c] so that all may see your progress. 16 Keep a close watch on yourself and on the teaching. Persist in this, for by so doing you will save both yourself and your hearers.

 

[St. SteVen]

Would the DEVIL want you to believe that there is no Hell?

I find it interesting that both Christians and Satanists believe in hell.

 

[St. SteVen]

... east Tx a couple of hours north of gulf. ...

I was born in Tyler.

 

[Taken]

I was born in Tyler.

I wasn’t , but I’ve been there, don’t think I saw any of your relatives.

 

[PinSeeker]

What about 1 Timothy 4:10? If Jesus doesn't actually save all men, then he is not the savior of all men, right?

1 Timothy 4
English Standard Version
Some Will Depart from the Faith
4 Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons, 2 through the insincerity of liars whose consciences are seared, 3 who forbid marriage and require abstinence from foods that God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. 4 For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, 5 for it is made holy by the word of God and prayer.

A Good Servant of Christ Jesus
6 If you put these things before the brothers,[a] you will be a good servant of Christ Jesus, being trained in the words of the faith and of the good doctrine that you have followed. 7 Have nothing to do with irreverent, silly myths. Rather train yourself for godliness; 8 for while bodily training is of some value, godliness is of value in every way, as it holds promise for the present life and also for the life to come. 9 The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance. 10 For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe.

11 Command and teach these things. 12 Let no one despise you for your youth, but set the believers an example in speech, in conduct, in love, in faith, in purity. 13 Until I come, devote yourself to the public reading of Scripture, to exhortation, to teaching. 14 Do not neglect the gift you have, which was given you by prophecy when the council of elders laid their hands on you. 15 Practice these things, immerse yourself in them,[c] so that all may see your progress. 16 Keep a close watch on yourself and on the teaching. Persist in this, for by so doing you will save both yourself and your hearers.

Great question. In one sense (a), He is the Savior of all men, and died for all, but in another (b), He is not and did not:

(a) He is the only one through Whom we or anyone can be reconciled to the Father; this is the general, outward call of the gospel and Scripture, to repent and believe. Jesus is the only Savior, and there is no other way to the Father except through Him. And, His sacrifice is sufficient for all.

(b) The specific, inward call is only issued ~ by God through the work of His Holy Spirit, each at his/her God-appointed time ~ to those whom God chose before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:1-14, especially verse 4) to be conformed to Christ Jesus. These are God's Elect, His true Israel, and a subset of all humanity. These are the ones for whom Jesus's sacrifice was efficacious.

To speak specifically to what you quoted, we could substitute the word 'effectually' for 'especially' in 1 Timothy 4:10. In John 6, Jesus says,

"All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and whoever comes to Me I will never cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will but the will of Him Who sent Me. And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that I should lose nothing of all that He has given Me, but raise it up on the last day."​

In what Jesus says here, there is the strong implication that the Father did not give Him all human beings, but only some/many. So, not all are members (or destined to be members) of God's Elect. As Jesus says in John 5:

"...an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear (the Father's) voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment."​

Later, in John 10, Jesus says:

"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, Who has given them to Me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one."​

Again, the strong implication is that not all are His sheep.

I welcome your thoughts. Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

Your point is well taken. Thank you for sharing that with me.

You are most welcome, my friend. Very kind of you to say. Grace and peace to you.

 

[Windmillcharge]

Verse please?

Matthew 13:41-43

 

[Jack]

That may be true. It's also true that they will come out of the Lake of Fire as new creatures. They too will inherit God's kingdom after being purified by fire and brimstone.

Revelation 20
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

 

[rwb]

Many of you believe that our loving creator sends much of his creation to suffer horribly in Hell FOREVER. Here is my question. How many different forms of torture do you believe our loving creator uses to torture his creation?

Hell if forever for all who die in unbelief. It begins in the grave where the physical body of the one in unbelief decomposes in darkness and silence. And the spirit in man returns to God without the life-giving Spirit from Christ in them. Then when the seventh trumpet sounds that time shall be no longer that body shall be resurrected to stand before the GWTJ of God to be judged according to what is written in the books and the book of life. Since the names of the dead without Christ are not recorded with the living in Christ, they will be cast into the lake of fire. Whether or not that soul is tortured and suffers without end is not the purpose. Because Scripture tells us the lake of fire is the second death. I will not speculate about what that entails, because the Bible in some verses seems to indicate the suffering is real and forever, and in other places the Bible seems to indicate it is the lake of fire that is real and forever, but this much is certain the one who has part in the second death shall NEVER again know life in any form. That's enough information for me to know without doubting that faithful saints ought to warn our fellow man about the dangers of going there, by proclaiming the Gospel of Christ to the lost, that they might believe and according to grace through faith have ETERNAL/NEVER ENDING/FOREVER/IMMORTAL life with Christ on the new earth.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 (KJV) Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Revelation 10:5-7 (KJV) And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Revelation 20:11-15 (KJV) And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.