What does "until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in" mean?

[JunChosen]

Again in Greek the phrasing is different to English so translation is at fault here....

And therefore, you are saying the English Translation Bible (2Peter 1:21) is NOT trustworthy because God does not do things perfectly?

So it doesn't really say what trinitarians want it to say.....this is speaking about "the great God" whom the apostles already acknowledged as "the Father"......"

And yet, we already learned in Genesis 1:1 that there were at least two or more persons involved in the creation of the world, as the word "God" there is the plural Hebrew word "Elohim" in which, BTW was substantiated in verse 26.

 

[Aunty Jane]

And therefore, you are saying the English Translation Bible (2Peter 1:21) is NOT trustworthy because God does not do things perfectly?

Is that what I said? Please do not put words in my mouth. I spoke about phrasing which is demonstrated in Greek to English Interlinears.

2 Peter 1:20-21 says.....”knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit. (NKJV)

2 Timothy 3:16-17 reinforces the same thought...
“All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.” (NKJV)

Please remember that it is scripture as written by the original writers that was inspired by God ......translations however are a different kettle of fish. If the devil can get in there and confuse people’s perceptions about what the Bible teaches, then biased translating will fail to convey the true meaning of what was originally written.

All English translations are the product of a corrupt church system. They are not a true representation of the original texts and scholars have been arguing about these things for centuries. It is the very thing that divided Christendom’s churches. There was to be no division in Christianity....(1 Cor 1:10)

The essence of what God inspired is there but undertones of corrup teaching are grafted over ambiguous verses to convey ideas that God’s word never taught.....ideas that surfaced in the early centuries and were never eradicated by the church, but adopted as gospel truth. Jesus warned that this corruption would take place. He said that the devil would sow “weeds” of a counterfeit “Christianity” and both the “wheat and the weeds” would grow together in the world until it was time for God to harvest his anointed ones.
That time is almost upon us.

The “wheat” still exist in the world....we just have to find them, and connect ourselves to them. How do we do that? The answer is “we” don’t....it is God who “draws” us to them, in spite of the fact that they are a hated and persecuted minority, just as the Christians were in the first century. (John 6:44; John 15:18-21)
Just as it took courage to separate from apostate Judaism in Jesus’s day, so today in an even more divided religious system, we need the courage to separate from what has become a sad joke in the world

And yet, we already learned in Genesis 1:1 that there were at least two or more persons involved in the creation of the world, as the word "God" there is the plural Hebrew word "Elohim" in which, BTW was substantiated in verse 26.

Yes, it is evident from Colossians 1:15-17 that Jehovah was not alone in his creation. But agency does not make Jesus a Creator. His Father alone brought the raw materials into existence, and the Son was used to fabricate those materials into all that exists....both in heaven and in the material Universe.

Jesus’ words at Matthew 19:4-6 reveal who he said the Creator is....
“And He answered and said to them, “Have you not read that He who made at the beginning ‘made them male and female,’ and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’? So then, they are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate.” (NKJV)

He does not include himself here as Creator, but gives all credit to his God and Father.

 

[JunChosen]

He does not include himself here as Creator, but gives all credit to his God and Father.

He does not need to!!!

Isaiah 9:6 attests to the Son:

"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulders: and his name shall be called WONDERFUL, COUNSELOR, THE MIGHTY GOD, THE EVERLASTING FATHER, THE PRINCE OF PEACE."

Have you ever read any where in Scripture the term "Prince of Peace" attested to the Father? No! Only to the Son.

The call to the world by the Father is...."This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him."

Question. Hear ye him of what?

Jesus made staggering claims about His ability to meet the spiritual needs of others. In the gospel of John there is a great succession of “I am” statements made by Jesus. “I am the light of the world. He who follows me will not walk in darkness.” “I am the bread of life.” “I am the door.” “I am the good shepherd.” “I am the resurrection and the life.” “I am the way, the truth and the life,” and so on. Why are these “I am” statements significant? Because when Jesus makes each of these statements, He is claiming that He and He alone could meet every individual’s need for forgiveness, peace, security, and direction. And He alone could bring them into a living, eternal relationship with God. He is not simply making interesting statements. He is actually affirming certain convictions about who He is. “Follow Me,” He says, “and you’ll never walk in darkness.” “Eat the bread of life and you’ll never hunger again.” “Follow Me, walk with Me, and I’ll take you directly into heaven.” It is difficult to imagine how anyone in his right mind could make even one of these claims without believing himself to be God. Imagine a man walking onto the stage of human history and saying, “I am the way, the truth, the life. Nobody comes to God the Father but through me.” That man is either a bad man telling lies, or a madman totally deluded or he is the Godman. He is actually who he claims to be.

And here's the kicker....

"I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am (he), ye shall die in your sins."

NOTE, the word in parenthesis above means that the printer is telling the English reader that the italicized word was not in the original manuscripts. IOW, Jesus is the great I AM!

To God Be The Glory

 

[Aunty Jane]

He does not need to!!!

Isaiah 9:6 attests to the Son:

"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulders: and his name shall be called WONDERFUL, COUNSELOR, THE MIGHTY GOD, THE EVERLASTING FATHER, THE PRINCE OF PEACE."

Have you ever read any where in Scripture the term "Prince of Peace" attested to the Father? No! Only to the Son.

This is a very important prophesy concerning the roles played by the (then) coming Messiah.....

Jesus was a superlative "Counselor", no doubt about that.....his wise words are recorded for us all to read in God's word.

He was a "mighty god" as well, in the true definition of the word "theos" in Greek. (this word does not only pertain to Jehovah, but also to those who represent him with his divine authority. John 10:31-36) Jehovah himself called his appointed judges in Israel "gods" because they represented him. Messiah was not "Almighty God" however....in the whole Bible, that designation only applies to the Father.
To the Jews, calling anyone but the Father "Almighty God" would have been blasphemy.

How is Jesus an "everlasting father"?

The word in Hebrew means....

• father of an individual
• of God as father of his people
• head or founder of a household, group, family, or clan
• ancestor

A father is also a "life giver".....Jesus wasn't ever anyone's father....he was the son of his Father....but he was a life giver and the head of the Christian "household". His disciples were called his "brothers", never his "sons".

And as for the "Prince of Peace".....what is a Prince? He is the son of a King.
That prophesy does not say what those in Christendom want it to say.....

The call to the world by the Father is...."This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him."

And those who have listened to the son, will obey the Father whose truth he taught. (John 8:28)

Question. Hear ye him of what?

Jesus made staggering claims about His ability to meet the spiritual needs of others.

Of course....he was sent as his Father's most trusted and "holy servant"...anointed for his role as Messiah. (Acts 4:27)

In the gospel of John there is a great succession of “I am” statements made by Jesus. “I am the light of the world. He who follows me will not walk in darkness.” “I am the bread of life.” “I am the door.” “I am the good shepherd.” “I am the resurrection and the life.” “I am the way, the truth and the life,” and so on. Why are these “I am” statements significant? Because when Jesus makes each of these statements, He is claiming that He and He alone could meet every individual’s need for forgiveness, peace, security, and direction. And He alone could bring them into a living, eternal relationship with God. He is not simply making interesting statements. He is actually affirming certain convictions about who He is. “Follow Me,” He says, “and you’ll never walk in darkness.” “Eat the bread of life and you’ll never hunger again.” “Follow Me, walk with Me, and I’ll take you directly into heaven.” It is difficult to imagine how anyone in his right mind could make even one of these claims without believing himself to be God. Imagine a man walking onto the stage of human history and saying, “I am the way, the truth, the life. Nobody comes to God the Father but through me.” That man is either a bad man telling lies, or a madman totally deluded or he is the Godman. He is actually who he claims to be.

Who told you that God's name was "I AM"?
If you look at the Jewish Tanakh, you will see that "I AM" is not the only meaning of God's name.

Exodus 3:13-15 does not say what most English translation state.....

And Moses said to God, "Behold I come to the children of Israel, and I say to them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you,' and they say to me, 'What is His name?' what shall I say to them?"		יגוַיֹּ֨אמֶר משֶׁ֜ה אֶל־הָֽאֱלֹהִ֗ים הִנֵּ֨ה אָֽנֹכִ֣י בָא֘ אֶל־בְּנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵל֒ וְאָֽמַרְתִּ֣י לָהֶ֔ם אֱלֹהֵ֥י אֲבֽוֹתֵיכֶ֖ם שְׁלָחַ֣נִי אֲלֵיכֶ֑ם וְאָֽמְרוּ־לִ֣י מַה־שְּׁמ֔וֹ מָ֥ה אֹמַ֖ר אֲלֵהֶֽם:
14 God said to Moses, "Ehyeh asher ehyeh (I will be what I will be)," and He said, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'Ehyeh (I will be) has sent me to you.'"		ידוַיֹּ֤אמֶר אֱלֹהִים֙ אֶל־משֶׁ֔ה אֶֽהְיֶ֖ה אֲשֶׁ֣ר אֶֽהְיֶ֑ה וַיֹּ֗אמֶר כֹּ֤ה תֹאמַר֙ לִבְנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵ֔ל אֶֽהְיֶ֖ה שְׁלָחַ֥נִי אֲלֵיכֶֽם:
15 And God said further to Moses, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'The Lord God of your forefathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.' This is My name forever, and this is how I should be mentioned in every generation.		טווַיֹּ֩אמֶר֩ ע֨וֹד אֱלֹהִ֜ים אֶל־משֶׁ֗ה כֹּ֣ה תֹאמַר֘ אֶל־בְּנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵל֒ יְהֹוָ֞ה אֱלֹהֵ֣י אֲבֹֽתֵיכֶ֗ם אֱלֹהֵ֨י אַבְרָהָ֜ם אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִצְחָ֛ק וֵֽאלֹהֵ֥י יַֽעֲקֹ֖ב שְׁלָחַ֣נִי אֲלֵיכֶ֑ם זֶה־שְּׁמִ֣י לְעֹלָ֔ם וְזֶ֥ה זִכְרִ֖י לְדֹ֥ר דֹּֽר:

Do you see that the divine name means so much more than self identification....?
Even Strongs Concordance reaffirms this....at Exodus 3:14 saying that "the name of God, YHWH, rendered LORD, which is derived from the verb HAYAH, to be." Not "I AM".

Exodus has no connection whatsoever with John 8:58.

And here's the kicker....

"I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am (he), ye shall die in your sins."

NOTE, the word in parenthesis above means that the printer is telling the English reader that the italicized word was not in the original manuscripts. IOW, Jesus is the great I AM!

The kicker??? No sorry.....
If you read that scripture in context it isn't saying what you want it to say....

"Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, [the promised Messiah] you will die in your sins.”
25 Then they said to Him, “Who are You?”
And Jesus said to them, “Just what I have been saying to you from the beginning. 26 I have many things to say and to judge concerning you, but He who sent Me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I heard from Him.”
27 They did not understand that He spoke to them of the Father.
28 Then Jesus said to them, “When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and that I do nothing of Myself; but as My Father taught Me, I speak these things." (John 8:24-28)

Jesus spoke about who he was...the promised seed of Abraham....the one the Jews were expecting.....not God, but his representative.

.....Jesus never once said "I am" as his name.....he said "I am" in the same way as we would say it.....there were no capital letter in Greek, so it was only Trinitarians who pushed that agenda....making Jesus say what he never once did.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Romans 11:25
English Standard Version
The Mystery of Israel's Salvation
25 Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers:[a] a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

Romans 11 clearly shows the distinction between the Jews (bloodline) and the Gentiles. Branches (unbelieving Jews) were broken off of the Vine (Jesus) so that the Gentiles could be grafted in. The rest were blinded until this time. Then it goes on and says in the end times when God has marked all who are in the Book of Life ( the numbers of the Gentiles are complete), then He will also open the eyes of a remnant Jewish population of which there are some 15 million and they will believe.
Matthew 24:14 supports this phrase, "when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in" -- the GOSPEL is preached to every nation and tribe and then the END WILL COME.

 

[Behold]

.....Jesus never once said "I am" as his name.....he said "I am" in the same way as we would say it.....there were no capital letter in Greek, so it was only Trinitarians who pushed that agenda....making Jesus say what he never once did.

Which Greek text?
There are about 30 of them. 'extant".
Did you check them all?
No you didnt.
You read a commentary that said.."trinitarians messed with the greek"., and you believed it.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Which Greek text?
There are about 30 of them. 'extant".
Did you check them all?
No you didnt.
You read a commentary that said.."trinitarians messed with the greek"., and you believed it.

All explained in post #44.
The Jews had one God, not three gods in one head. (Deuteronomy 6:4)
Show me where Jesus ever said that he was “God” in human form....? That would have been the ultimate blasphemy to the Jews. They tried to charge him with blasphemy for claiming to be “the son of God”.

John 10:31-36 read in Greek shows the definite article quite clearly, and yet it is missing from the English translation.....”theos with the definite article always means Jehovah. “Theos” without the definite article (in the same passage) can mean those divinely authorized by him, as he said of the judges in Israel, calling them “theos” (gods)......

“Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, “Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?” The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.”[theos] Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, “You are gods”[theos] ’? If He called them gods, [theos] to whom the word of God [ho theos] came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’ [ho theos]? (NKJV)

John 1:1 is the primary “proof text” for those who want to believe in Christendom’s god, but read in Greek, it is not how it is translated into English.....one small omission of that word “ho” (the definite article identifying the one, then nameless, God of the Jews) is left out entirely, rendering that verse a biased mistranslation.

It’s such a little word, but applied to the Almighty, identifies him in contrast with his son and others who are called “gods” by the Almighty himself.....Jesus was identified by the apostles as God’s most trusted “holy servant”. (Acts 4:27) Jesus is never identified with the definite article.

Who are you believing?

 

[Behold]

All explained in post #44.
The Jews had one God,

And the Jews rejected Their Messiah and they wrote the prophecies concerning Him.

Do you have a New Testament?

Just read one verse.

John 1:10.

That's Jesus.
Check it out.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

Romans 11:25
English Standard Version
The Mystery of Israel's Salvation
25 Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers:[a] a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

I will explain this unto you, I read through this thread and no one quite gets to the bottom of what this "Until the FULNESS of the GENTILES comes in" actually means.

Why is that line even used by Paul? Well, if one reads Romans chapters 9-11 very carefully Paul is telling the Romans basically nit to become high minded and haughty, he's saying that God Himself CHOOSES WHO He will. So, in other words these three chapters are all about SERVICE unto God (very, very important) and thus Paul says who knows why the Potter (God) chooses to make that which He wills, then Paul speaks about Esau and Jacob, and says before either were born God chose the younger (Jacob) over the Elder (Esau), he mentions that God stated via Isaiah that He would use a people He had not heretofore known as His people. So, these three chapters are all about SERVICE unto God !! Why did God chose the Gentiles? Because of FAITH ALONE, why did God cast off Israel for nigh 2000 years? Because of their lack of faith and thus their trust in THE LAW. So, what has all this to do with the "Time of the Gentiles?" Well, Paul is showing us three phases, a time when Israel were used by God, to show a people separated unto God, who many times failed, the birth the Messiah of the whole world, mission complete. Now they needed to usher in the Kingdom Age, but because of lack of faith they couldn't, they had learned to place the LAW about their FAITH, and only faith makes us Righteous, not our works.

So, God turned unto the Gentiles, this the "Time of the Gentiles" has to do with SERVICE, not with Gentile Rule as so many wrongly think. Think about it, the Gentiles have always been stronger than Israel over all, but a specific time period where the Gentiles are CALLED by God unto service, cn be a Time of the Gentiles, which is thus fulfilled by a Rapture of the Church which ends our SERVICE on earth unto God and makes way for Israel's SERVICE to be restored, thus Paul says their CALLING is without repentance, in other words Israel will rule with Christ during the Kingdom Age, of course, but not until the Gentiles Time [of service] has come full.

This in no way has anything to do with the Gentile Church taking the place of Israel !! As a matter of fact in Gal. 3 Paul is chastising them because they are trying to keep the Law in order to make it to Heaven, thus he calls them foolish, and says why having arisen by FAITH (Spirit) have you now started serving the Flesh or LAW? So, when Paul says were are neither Greek, nor Jew, Male or Female, he is not saying we are all the same, we know we still have Males and Females right? Just the opposite of what many put forth, he is telling the Galatians to STOP trying to be Jews (keeping the Law) in order to make it into Heaven, that is not needed, both Jew and Greek both come unto God/Christ in the exact same manner, by FAITH ALONE, as do both Females and Males, no one tries to insist that Paul is saying all Males and Females are now ONE SEX do they? Because he is simply saying we are all one in how we must come unto God, by Faith Alone. Israel's calling is to rule with Jesus during the Kingdom Age, we will not rule with him at that time, Revelation 20:4 proves that, only those who REFUSED the Mark of the Beast and thus becomes Martyrs will live and reign with Jesus for 1000 years, so that is only a select few who die during the 70th week !! My assumption is we go back to Heaven to finish off the New Jerusalem, thus as it descends it is called the Bride of Christ. Amen.

In short, when you see Time of the Gentiles, it means the Pre Tribulation Rapture has to come and end the Gentile Church Age before the 70th week can start up.

 

[Davy]

Romans 11:25
English Standard Version
The Mystery of Israel's Salvation
25 Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers:[a] a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

The reason why the majority of Jews have been blinded by God, the 'spirit of stupor' put upon them, is so The Gospel would go to the Gentiles. That's what Paul said in Romans 11.

But Paul warned us (believers), to not be conceited with our belief on Christ against them, because when the fullness of the Gentiles is complete, then their blindness will be removed.

When Revelation speaks of those who at Christ's coming will wish for the hills and mountains to fall upon them, that is about those blinded Jews suddenly realizing Who Jesus is. At the end of Zech.12, the Jews will mourn for Jesus like a long lost son. (but don't confuse these with the false Jews of the synagogue of Satan that are actually the 'tares' sown by the devil, i.e., the crept in unawares of Jude).