A Form of godliness

[Earburner]

2 Tim 3:5,

Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.​

​

Clearly the folks Paul is talking about are not actually godly at all. Note verses 1-4 make that clear. However it is equally clear they have a "form" of godliness. Apparently someone being in the "form" of something else does not make that person to actually be that something.

Phil 2:6,

Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:​

​

What is it that makes this verse's usage of "form" any different? Why is it that here one person, i.e., Jesus, being in the "form" of someone else, i.e., God, make Jesus to actually be God?

​

Having a form of godliness means that one has Religion, and/or a pius religious appearance/behavior about them, but is NOT a partaker of God's own divine nature, being void of the Holy Spirit of God.
2 Peter 1:3-4, Rom. 8:8-9, 1 John 5:12-13.

 

[Johann]

What is “equal” …is it alike …or “it is enough the student becomes as the teacher” as …will be like?

Php 2:4 Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others.
Php 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Php 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

Strong's #3444 - μορφή - Old & New Testament Greek Lexical Dictionary - StudyLight.org

Strong's #3444 - μορφή in the Old & New Testament Greek Lexical Dictionary on StudyLight.org

www.studylight.org

We have these tools, why not use them?

Transliteration: isa
Morphology: Adj-ANP
Adjective - Accusative Neuter Plural
Strong's no.: G2470 (ἴσος)
Meaning: Equal, equivalent, identical.


Php 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

Transliteration: ekenōsen
Morphology: V-AIA-3S
Verb - Aorist Indicative Active - 3rd Person Singular
Strong's no.: G2758 (κενόω)
Meaning: (a) to empty, (b) to deprive of content, make unreal.

Php 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Transliteration: heuretheis
Morphology: V-APP-NMS
Verb - Aorist Participle Passive - Nominative Masculine Singular
Strong's no.: G2147 (εὑρίσκω)
Meaning: To find, learn, discover, especially after searching.

Php 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
Php 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
Php 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

 

[Wrangler]

I don’t understand. “Thought not IS”
Do you mean “He thought it not robbery to be equal with God.”
Not “IS” equal to God?

How do we define “equal” ? I meanGod asked them often how they said His ways were not equal…but God then asked them to consider it was their ways which were not equal.

What is “equal” …is it alike …or “it is enough the student becomes as the teacher” as …will be like?

You got it. "Like" is not equal. Equal has already been defined.

Two of the most different life forms remain "like" in that they are living. "Is" affirms identity, which is different from someone thought something. I thought Joe to be at lunch is not the same factual statement as it IS the case. Simple.

In Scripture, many incorrectly take what someone says or thinks to be equal to the narrative. For instance, no one thought or said that God said, "Let there be light." That is a narrative declaration. This is different than Thomas exclaming, my god, or Abigal calling David her lord. This is incorrectly taken to be a narrative declaration that the person before Thomas or David is the LORD God.

Perhaps another example from Scripture is Adam and Even thinking the fig leave would hide their sin from God - as opposed to IS hiding their sin from God.

Hope this helps.

 

[Rich R]

Interesting-where was Jesus BEFORE He became 2Aorist?
Since Jesus had NO beginning and no ending?
Johann.

The same place we were all at before we were born.

Matt 1:18,

Now the birth (genesis) of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.​

In any case, few, if any, scholars would say not that John was somewhat unique in his style of writing. I wouldn't say some of what he said was exactly "cryptic," but something like that.

However I think he was clear when saying why he wrote his Gospel:

John 20:31,

But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.​

​

To say Jesus is God would require we abandon the normal meaning of the word "son" and "father" which I suppose we could do, but then we'd have to wonder what other simple words God may have redefined.

Also Jesus actually being the son of God and not God Himself would fit the with truth that Jesus has the same Father and God we all have:

John 20:17,

Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and [to] my God, and your God.​

If Jesus were God, we'd have to wonder who the God and Father of God is. I would have no idea who that might be.

In any case, all these verses and more like them need to fit with John 1:1-14. We certainly can't just throw away verses that don't fit with orthodox doctrine. There's something about that in Revelation and it's not very pretty! :)

 

[Johann]

The same place we were all at before we were born.

Cannot be in agreement with you-

Micah 5:2

“But as for you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,
Too little to be among the clans of Judah,
From you One will go forth for Me to be ruler in Israel.
His goings forth are from long ago,
From the days of eternity.”

John 1:1

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 8:58

Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.”

John 17:5

Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

John 17:24

Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.

Colossians 1:17

He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

Hebrews 7:3

Without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like the Son of God, he remains a priest perpetually.

Revelation 22:13

I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”

Colossians 1:15

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.

Hebrews 1:11-12
They will perish, but You remain;
And they all will become old like a garment,
And like a mantle You will roll them up;
Like a garment they will also be changed.
But You are the same,
And Your years will not come to an end.”

1 John 1:1-2
What was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we have looked at and touched with our hands, concerning the Word of Life— and the life was manifested, and we have seen and testify and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was manifested to us—

John 1:1-2
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God.

John 1:15

John *testified about Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.’”

Revelation 1:17-18
When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man. And He placed His right hand on me, saying, “Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last, and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades.

Revelation 2:8

“And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: The first and the last, who was dead, and has come to life, says this:

Now just because I am not agreeing with you, showing you courtesy-does not mean I am against you.

Shalom
Johann.

 

[Rich R]

Having a form of godliness means that one has Religion, and/or a pius religious appearance/behavior about them, but is NOT a partaker of God's own divine nature, being void of the Holy Spirit of God.
2 Peter 1:3-4, Rom. 8:8-9, 1 John 5:12-13.

Exactly! Now apply that to Phil 2:6,

Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:​

​

Jesus having the form (appearance) of God does not make him God, any more that an ungodly man who has the form of godliness make him godly. One thing having the form of something else does not make it to actually be that something else.

Jesus changed his "form" after his resurrection, so much so that some of his disciples did not recognize him. Was he therefore no longer Jesus? Of course not! It was only his outward appearance that changed, his form. He was Jesus all along. The same with him having the form of God.

Then there's this. I would guess Jesus had in mind that he was in the form of God. Are we not told to have the same mind? Yes we are:

Phil 2:5,

Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:​

​

Whatever Jesus thought about being in the form of God is what we are also to think. Are you and I and all other Christians therefor God? I sure wouldn't want to go there!

I'm not saying one way or the other that Jesus is or is not God, but I just don't think Philippians 2:6 is a valid proof verse that He is. I dare say many of the proof verses used to show Jesus is God fall into the same category. In general I think there are more verses that would preclude him from being God than visa versa. All verses have to fit one way or the other though. Can't just abandon those that don't fit with our own ideas.

 

[Rich R]

Cannot be in agreement with you-

Micah 5:2

“But as for you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,
Too little to be among the clans of Judah,
From you One will go forth for Me to be ruler in Israel.
His goings forth are from long ago,
From the days of eternity.”

John 1:1

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 8:58

Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.”

John 17:5

Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

John 17:24

Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.

Colossians 1:17

He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

Hebrews 7:3

Without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like the Son of God, he remains a priest perpetually.

Revelation 22:13

I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”

Colossians 1:15

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.

Hebrews 1:11-12
They will perish, but You remain;
And they all will become old like a garment,
And like a mantle You will roll them up;
Like a garment they will also be changed.
But You are the same,
And Your years will not come to an end.”

1 John 1:1-2
What was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we have looked at and touched with our hands, concerning the Word of Life— and the life was manifested, and we have seen and testify and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was manifested to us—

John 1:1-2
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God.

John 1:15

John *testified about Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.’”

Revelation 1:17-18
When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man. And He placed His right hand on me, saying, “Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last, and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades.

Revelation 2:8

“And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: The first and the last, who was dead, and has come to life, says this:

Now just because I am not agreeing with you, showing you courtesy-does not mean I am against you.

Shalom
Johann.

Thanks brother! I share the sentiment of your last sentence. This debate has been going on for 2,000 years and it's not likely to end today unless everybody suddenly believed what I say (or you for that matter), and I don't see that happening anytime soon! :) I think Romans 10:9-10 is the deciding factor for who is saved and who isn't and there's nothing there about Jesus being God or not being God. He's my Lord and your Lord and I assume we both agree that God rose him from among the dead. We will come to complete agreement about this and man other long debated matters in the scriptures when we see Him face to face! Maybe later today? I'd be for that!

I still have to wonder how all those verses you quoted fit with John 20:17 & 31, and many others, not the least of which what it means to be someone's son.

 

[Johann]

Thanks brother! I share the sentiment of your last sentence. This debate has been going on for 2,000 years and it's not likely to end today unless everybody suddenly believed what I say (or you for that matter)

I just go by what stands written and the grammatical construction of words.

Job 37:23-24 "As touching the Almighty, we cannot find him out." Who can understand the greatness and majesty of GOD? No one can. The greatness of GOD is unsearchable.
Baruch 3:18
For those who wrought in silver, and who were so careful, and whose works are unsearchable,

Ephesians 3:8
To me, the very least of all saints, was this grace given, to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ,

Isaiah 40:28
Haven't you known? Haven't you heard? The everlasting God, the LORD, The Creator of the ends of the earth, doesn't faint. He isn't weary. His understanding is unsearchable.

Job 36:26
Behold, God is great, and we don't know him. The number of his years is unsearchable.

Proverbs 25:3
As the heavens for height, and the earth for depth, so the hearts of kings are unsearchable.

Psalms 145:3
Great is the LORD, and greatly to be praised! His greatness is unsearchable.

Romans 11:33
Oh the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and the knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past tracing out!

Shalom
Johann.

 

[Rich R]

I just go by what stands written and the grammatical construction of words.

Job 37:23-24 "As touching the Almighty, we cannot find him out." Who can understand the greatness and majesty of GOD? No one can. The greatness of GOD is unsearchable.
Baruch 3:18
For those who wrought in silver, and who were so careful, and whose works are unsearchable,

Ephesians 3:8
To me, the very least of all saints, was this grace given, to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ,

Isaiah 40:28
Haven't you known? Haven't you heard? The everlasting God, the LORD, The Creator of the ends of the earth, doesn't faint. He isn't weary. His understanding is unsearchable.

Job 36:26
Behold, God is great, and we don't know him. The number of his years is unsearchable.

Proverbs 25:3
As the heavens for height, and the earth for depth, so the hearts of kings are unsearchable.

Psalms 145:3
Great is the LORD, and greatly to be praised! His greatness is unsearchable.

Romans 11:33
Oh the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and the knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past tracing out!

Shalom
Johann.

All very true! But none of those verses help me understand who God's God is (understanding that John 20:17 says Jesus has the same God as you and I). Any verses that might help me with that?

 

[Johann]

All very true! But none of those verses help me understand who God's God is (understanding that John 20:17 says Jesus has the same God as you and I). Any verses that might help me with that?

Not necessary-I have read your posts and remarks between you and @marks-things can go ugly, quickly, when there are disagreements.
Have a good day.
Johann.

 

[Wrangler]

One thing having the form of something else does not make it to actually be that something else.

LANGUAGE USAGE: Using the term "form" is how one knows it is NOT what it is in the form of. 'My uncle's swimming pool was in the form of a kidney.' It remained a swimming pool.

If something IS a thing, there is no purpose to say it is merely in the form of that thing.

• My birthday cake WAS chocolate because they know I like chocolate so much.
• My birthday case was in the form of a football because they know I like football so much.

If you told someone that your birthday cake was in the form of chocolate, it would confuse rather than edify.

 

[Jack]

Not an answer to @face2face question, now is it?

The deity of Christ really has nothing to do with the point.

Sure it does.

Gen 1:26 God said, "Let US make man in OUR image according to OUR likeness

Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Agreed, YHWH is the Creator WHO created but HOW he created is not detailed. One more point, is the word there is not "God" but heavenly being.

In the beginning Elohim created heaven and earth. (NOG)

If the entire argument boils down to what sense of the word "Elohim" is invoked in v1, it is a weak argument. So, it is not unreasonable to conclude the Angels were involved with Creation in some way.

To be clear, are you saying angels created us?

Genesis 5
1 In the day that God created man, He made him in the likeness of God.
2 He created them male and female, and blessed them and called them Mankind in the day they were created.

 

[Wrangler]

@Keturah you know this right? God uses His angels to do all manner of tasks.

So you deny the deity of Jesus

Not an answer to @face2face question, now is it?

Sure it does.

Gen 1:26 God said, "Let US make man in OUR image according to OUR likeness

Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Let's not turn this into the forbidden subject. The "us in question being discussed is Angels. Let's stick to that.

 

[Jack]

Let's not turn this into the forbidden subject. The "us in question being discussed is Angels. Let's stick to that.

Angels created man??? The only creating I see in the Bible is by God.

 

[Johann]

To be clear, are you saying angels created us?

Sure sounds like that.

Let's not turn this into the forbidden subject. The "us in question being discussed is Angels. Let's stick to that.

Forbidden subject?
Did God have a conversation with "angels?

 

[Keturah]

Let's not turn this into the forbidden subject. The "us in question being discussed is Angels. Let's stick to that.

Lol. I'm done here anyway!

 

[Wrangler]

To be clear, are you saying angels created us?

To be clear, I am putting AGENCY on the table.

Agency is a principle used throughout Scripture and is a way to use language even to the present. When people say, "Hitler killed 4M Jews," they don't mean it literally. Rather, he ordered his agents to do it.

On the detailed HOW of Creation, Scripture is silent. However, one can envision it as a process flow.

1. He created all the things - including heaven and Earth - and then made heavenly and Earthly beings.
2. He created heaven and heavenly beings - who then carried out the details of creating not in heaven.

As another poster wrote, this is not a big point of doctrine; just a consideration of the use of angels consistent with Scripture. Incidently, it could be argued that the "us" in GE 1:26 were to untold numbers of Angels or other heavenly beings. I think you have to concede that Scripture is silent on this detail.

 

[Wrangler]

Angels created man??? The only creating I see in the Bible is by God.

The you see dimly for the word is Elohim, which means heavenly Being.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

You got it. "Like" is not equal. Equal has already been defined.

I don’t know. Here is a question:

Is God and Christ equally yoked together?
Or is God and Christ unequally yoked together?

 

[Johann]

As another poster wrote, this is not a big point of doctrine; just a consideration of the use of angels consistent with Scripture. Incidently, it could be argued that the "us" in GE 1:26 were to untold numbers of Angels or other heavenly beings. I think you have to concede that Scripture is silent on this detail.

I think you have to concede that you are in error-Period.
J.