Faith without works is dead

[RichardBurger]

seekandfind said:

If a person is saying such and such is true and biblical, that person would have no problem pointing others to the written word to see if it is so. God's word stands. Paul once wrote, "let God be true and every man a liar."That is not to say that every man is a liar, it means search it out to see if is so. If someone is teaching something and not pointing others to search it out themselves prayerfully, we should take issue with that.

My comment: There are many that say such and such is true. That does not make it true.

Romans 8:13-17
13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

Great verse and true! and Paul also wrote that no sin will enter in:

My comment: The scriptures also say that flesh and blood will not enter heaven. That means no mater how hard you try to make it sinless it is still sinful

1 Corinthians 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
1 Corinthians 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Note: All of the things listed in the above verses that "shall not inherit the Kingdom of God," are involved with living according to the flesh. Can any righteousness be found in any of those things?

My comment: You are talking about the righteousness of man = self righteousness. You fail to see that every child of God is ACCOUNTED AS RIGHTEOUS and given the righteousness of God solely because they believe God. How do we become righteous, by our works of trying not to sin, or by placing our faith in Jesus' work on the cross. In simple words we are righteous only because we believe God's word.

Those that believe God's promise of salvation by faith in Jesus; those that have faith, trust, confidence in Jesus' work on the cross have the righteousness of God and will enter heaven; not by their own righteousness but by the imputed righteousness of God given to then because they trust in God, not themselve.

God accounted Abraham righteous solely for his faith in God's Promises, and not by anything that he did.　 There is nothing in Genesis 15 that mentions any works that Abraham did. Paul accurately reports this.

 

[Episkopos]

seekandfind said:

If a person is saying such and such is true and biblical, that person would have no problem pointing others to the written word to see if it is so. God's word stands. Paul once wrote, "let God be true and every man a liar."That is not to say that every man is a liar, it means search it out to see if is so. If someone is teaching something and not pointing others to search it out themselves prayerfully, we should take issue with that.

My comment: There are many that say such and such is true. That does not make it true.

Romans 8:13-17
13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

Great verse and true! and Paul also wrote that no sin will enter in:

My comment: The scriptures also say that flesh and blood will not enter heaven.

1 Corinthians 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
1 Corinthians 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Note: All of the things listed in the above verses that "shall not inherit the Kingdom of God," are involved with living according to the flesh. Can any righteousness be found in any of those things?

My comment: You are talking about the righteousness of man = self righteousness. You fail to see that every child of God is ACCOUNTED AS RIGHTEOUS and given the righteousness of God solely because they believe God. How do we become righteous, by our works, or by placing our faith in Jesus' work on the cross. In simple words we are righteous only because we believe God's word.

Those that believe God's promise of salvation by faith in Jesus; those that have faith, trust, confidence in Jesus' work on the cross have the righteousness of God and will enter heaven; not by their own righteousness but by the imputed righteousness of God given to then because they trust in God, not themselve
God accounted Abraham righteous solely for his faith in God's Promises, and not by anything that he did.　 There is nothing in Genesis 15 that mentions any works that Abraham did. Paul accurately reports this.

On the one hand you say you agree with the bible that those who do bad things (sin) are not righteous and therefore will not inherit life. But on the other hand you say salvation has nothing to do with what we do...which does not agree with the bible. This is a false balance.

1 Corinthians 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
1 Corinthians 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.


So how can you agree with visible works determining whether a person is saved or not? Doesn't this go exactly contrary to your doctrine of a non-responsibility for our own actions?
Do you not claim to be unrighteous yet saved by a bait a switch righteousness that you cannot live up to yourself?

Would you not say... fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
1 Corinthians 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God....if they put their faith in Jesus' work on the cross.

Wouldn't you say the issue is not about what you DO but what you believe?

 

[RichardBurger]

On the one hand you say you agree with the bible that those who do bad things (sin) are not righteous and therefore will not inherit life. But on the other hand you say salvation has nothing to do with what we do...which does not agree with the bible. This is a false balance.

1 Corinthians 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
1 Corinthians 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.


So how can you agree with visible works determining whether a person is saved or not? Doesn't this go exactly contrary to your doctrine of a non-responsibility for our own actions?
Do you not claim to be unrighteous yet saved by a bait a switch righteousness that you cannot live up to yourself?

Would you not say... fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
1 Corinthians 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God....if they put their faith in Jesus' work on the cross.

Wouldn't you say the issue is not about what you DO but what you believe?

Not at all. Those are your conclusions and you will always find fault with what I write. Those in Christ are sinless only because the shed blood of Jesus has paided for their sins. These have placed their belief, faith, trust and confidence in Jesus' work on the cross. God has called them righteous because of their faith in His promises.

In this age we are not saved by having our own righteousness. We are saved because we believe God who sent Paul with the message of grace, salvation by faith in God; believing God's promises.

Since you just love to redicule me let me ask you a question. Do you have the imputed righteousness given to those who have faith in what God has already done on the cross, or are you only righteous because of what you do in the flesh? There is no middle ground. You can't have faith in God and also in yourself. Salvation is the work of God, not man's works. Trying to claim sinlessness in the flesh is to claim you can make your flesh sinless and acceptable to God by your works. God calls these people self-righteous.

 

[seekandfind]

Interesting RichardB,


RichardBurger said: “God accounted Abraham righteous solely for his faith in God's Promises, and not by anything that he did.　 There is nothing in Genesis 15 that mentions any works that Abraham did. Paul accurately reports this.”

I don't think that I ever mentioned Genesis at all in my response. I did mentioned Abraham based on Hebrews 11.

I'm fine with it if you'd like to look more closely at it....

Let's take a look further on into Genesis and see what God did say.

Genesis 26:3 Sojourn in this land, and I will be with thee, and will bless thee; for unto thee, and unto thy seed, I will give all these countries, and I will perform the oath which I sware unto Abraham thy father;
Genesis 26:4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
Genesis 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Now, let's look at Hebrews 11, and see if it lines up.

Hebrews 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
Hebrews 11:9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:

Do you think that Abraham just sat there saying, "I believe, I believe, I believe?" Nope....He believed God and he acted on that belief.

Faith without works is dead.

 

[Episkopos]

God can declare any man righteousn as He ses fit. The problem is when men read the bible...compare themselves favourably to those whom they read about...then declare themselves righteous! That is the essence of self-righteousness! The Pharisees did exactly the same thing.
The reasoning goes...Abraham was declared righteous...I am just like Abraham...so I am righteous!!! Foolproof???

 

[seekandfind]

God can declare any man righteousn as He ses fit. The problem is when men read the bible...compare themselves favourably to those whom they read about...then declare themselves righteous! That is the essence of self-righteousness! The Pharisees did exactly the same thing.
The reasoning goes...Abraham was declared righteous...I am just like Abraham...so I am righteous!!! Foolproof???

Hi Episkopos,

The truth is, and I know this personally, that when I read about those who God called righteous in the bible, I do not see myself as walking anywhere near the righteousness that they did. Those things should bring conviction when we examine ourselves by the standards set by those who God called righteous.

God did call some righteous as He did with Abraham and there are examples of why He said that they were righteous . If you look at the account where the Pharisees asked Jesus why He ate with tax collectors and sinners, Jesus responded that He came for the sinner and not for the righteous. He said this to the Pharisees, yet He spoke many times about their self-righteousness and the works involved with that for examples of what it means, and the leaven involved with that, which is hypocrisy.

Luke 5:32 I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

I believe that it comes down to this. If we believe that we are righteous by our own standards and that we know everything what more is there to learn? How can He work with that?

When we examine ourselves, what standards do we go by? The world sets standards for worldly things, and God sets the standard for His things. We should absolutely consider those things in the scriptures.

I do not see righteousness as having anything to do with being lifted up in our own hearts but it has more to do with humility. Knowing that we are still learning and growing is one part. Not leaning on our own understanding but believing God is also involved.

On the one hand you say you agree with the bible that those who do bad things (sin) are not righteous and therefore will not inherit life. But on the other hand you say salvation has nothing to do with what we do...which does not agree with the bible. This is a false balance.

1 Corinthians 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
1 Corinthians 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.


So how can you agree with visible works determining whether a person is saved or not? Doesn't this go exactly contrary to your doctrine of a non-responsibility for our own actions?
Do you not claim to be unrighteous yet saved by a bait a switch righteousness that you cannot live up to yourself?

Would you not say... fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
1 Corinthians 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God....if they put their faith in Jesus' work on the cross.

Wouldn't you say the issue is not about what you DO but what you believe?

I would say the issue isn't about what I believe...we can believe all kinds of things that are not true. It's about believing the truth.
I'd say that it's about whom we believe.

Since God writes His laws upon our hearts and minds, there would be an outward sign of an inward thing.

We can hear a person say all kinds of profound things, but when we go directly to God and ask HIM for wisdom and understanding in a matter and leave our own ideas aside, He does answer, and when HE answers and shows us what something means there is no mistaking it. That is when it's written on our hearts.

Even in the examples of those who God called righteous we see that even they were still learning and growing and yes, they still made mistakes. In the case of King David, God said that he was "a man after his own heart." He loved David, yet David still made some bad choices. He was still learning and being changed. David cried out to God, and he always called God his God and repented with sorrow throughout the Psalms he was still learning, Ch.119 is a great example of that.

In comparison with King Saul, you won't find passages where he cries out to God in repentance. What I've seen in the scriptures is that when ever Saul spoke with Samuel regarding God, Saul referred to God as "the Lord your God." See the difference there between he and David?

We are being changed...I'm not perfect yet and i know that full well. But I do believe what the scriptures say, "He is faithful to finish the good work that He has begun in us."

Jeremiah 13:23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil.

The only changes that happen are with HIM because of HIM by abiding in HIM. If we believe Him we will do the things that HE said to do.

Acts 3:26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

 

[RichardBurger]

Luke 18:9-14 ------ The Parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector
9 Also He spoke this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
10 "Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector.
11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself,'God, I thank You that I am not like other men — extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector.
12 I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.'
13 And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me a sinner!'
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted."
NKJV

The scripture never says the Tax collector gave up his job or stopped sinning in the flesh.

This Parable is alive and well on this forum because there are so many claiming to be sinless. They can claim it before man but God sees into their hearts. They sin just like all the rest of us.

On the one hand you say you agree with the bible that those who do bad things (sin) are not righteous and therefore will not inherit life. But on the other hand you say salvation has nothing to do with what we do...which does not agree with the bible. This is a false balance.

1 Corinthians 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
1 Corinthians 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.


So how can you agree with visible works determining whether a person is saved or not? Doesn't this go exactly contrary to your doctrine of a non-responsibility for our own actions?
Do you not claim to be unrighteous yet saved by a bait a switch righteousness that you cannot live up to yourself?

Would you not say... fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
1 Corinthians 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God....if they put their faith in Jesus' work on the cross.

Wouldn't you say the issue is not about what you DO but what you believe?

You just can't seem to understand the truth. All men are sinners in the flesh. According to the scriptures I will enter heaven with the righteosuness of God attributed to me. Not by my own righteousness.

The scriptures tell us that those who place their faith in Jesus (His work on the cross for them) have the righteousness of God IMPUTTED TO THEM. So how can you say I can't enter heaven if I still sin in the flesh. I am accounted as righteous soley because I place my faith in God; not in my works but His works. I have God's righteousness, not my own.

It seems that the religious will never be able to see this. In the Parable below who was justified before God? The self-righteous Pharrisee or the sinner?

Luke 18:9-14 ------ The Parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector
9 Also He spoke this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
10 "Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector.
11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself,'God, I thank You that I am not like other men — extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector.
12 I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.'
13 And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me a sinner!'
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted."
NKJV

Interesting RichardB,


RichardBurger said: “God accounted Abraham righteous solely for his faith in God's Promises, and not by anything that he did.　 There is nothing in Genesis 15 that mentions any works that Abraham did. Paul accurately reports this.”

I don't think that I ever mentioned Genesis at all in my response. I did mentioned Abraham based on Hebrews 11.

I'm fine with it if you'd like to look more closely at it....

Let's take a look further on into Genesis and see what God did say.

Genesis 26:3 Sojourn in this land, and I will be with thee, and will bless thee; for unto thee, and unto thy seed, I will give all these countries, and I will perform the oath which I sware unto Abraham thy father;
Genesis 26:4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
Genesis 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Now, let's look at Hebrews 11, and see if it lines up.

Hebrews 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
Hebrews 11:9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:

Do you think that Abraham just sat there saying, "I believe, I believe, I believe?" Nope....He believed God and he acted on that belief.

Faith without works is dead.

I believe what the scriptures say and do not add to them like you do. You said Abraham did more that believe; PROVE IT BY THE SCRIPTURES using the same chapter where God accounted Abrahams belief as righteousness.


Genesis 15:4-6
4 And behold, the word of the Lord came to him, saying, "This one shall not be your heir, but one who will come from your own body shall be your heir."
5 Then He brought him outside and said, "Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them." And He said to him,"So shall your descendants be."
6 And he believed in the Lord, and He accounted it to him for righteousness
NKJV


Romans 4:1-4 Abraham Justified by Faith (Genesis 17:10)
1 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh?
2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.
3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."
4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.
NKJV

But you just can't accept this scripture as it is written can you

 

[seekandfind]

Luke 18:9-14 ------ The Parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector
9 Also He spoke this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
10 "Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector.
11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself,'God, I thank You that I am not like other men — extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector.
12 I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.'
13 And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me a sinner!'
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted."
NKJV

The scripture never says the Tax collector gave up his job or stopped sinning in the flesh.

This Parable is alive and well on this forum because there are so many claiming to be sinless. They can claim it before man but God sees into their hearts. They sin just like all the rest of us.



You just can't seem to understand the truth. All men are sinners in the flesh. According to the scriptures I will enter heaven with the righteosuness of God attributed to me. Not by my own righteousness.

The scriptures tell us that those who place their faith in Jesus (His work on the cross for them) have the righteousness of God IMPUTTED TO THEM. So how can you say I can't enter heaven if I still sin in the flesh. I am accounted as righteous soley because I place my faith in God; not in my works but His works. I have God's righteousness, not my own.

It seems that the religious will never be able to see this. In the Parable below who was justified before God? The self-righteous Pharrisee or the sinner?

Luke 18:9-14 ------ The Parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector
9 Also He spoke this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
10 "Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector.
11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself,'God, I thank You that I am not like other men — extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector.
12 I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.'
13 And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me a sinner!'
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted."
NKJV



I believe what the scriptures say and do not add to them like you do. You said Abraham did more that believe; PROVE IT BY THE SCRIPTURES using the same chapter where God accounted Abrahams belief as righteousness.


Genesis 15:4-6
4 And behold, the word of the Lord came to him, saying, "This one shall not be your heir, but one who will come from your own body shall be your heir."
5 Then He brought him outside and said, "Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them." And He said to him,"So shall your descendants be."
6 And he believed in the Lord, and He accounted it to him for righteousness
NKJV


Romans 4:1-4 Abraham Justified by Faith (Genesis 17:10)
1 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh?
2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.
3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."
4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.
NKJV

But you just can't accept this scripture as it is written can you

RichardB,

I really don't think that you even read the messages. I'm not going to carry on a one sided debate.

Since you don't read and you simply want to justify your sin. Carry on

 

[Episkopos]

Luke 18:9-14 ------ The Parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector
9 Also He spoke this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
10 "Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector.
11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself,'God, I thank You that I am not like other men — extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector.
12 I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.'
13 And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me a sinner!'
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted."
NKJV

The scripture never says the Tax collector gave up his job or stopped sinning in the flesh.

This Parable is alive and well on this forum because there are so many claiming to be sinless. They can claim it before man but God sees into their hearts. They sin just like all the rest of us.



You just can't seem to understand the truth. All men are sinners in the flesh. According to the scriptures I will enter heaven with the righteosuness of God attributed to me. Not by my own righteousness.

The scriptures tell us that those who place their faith in Jesus (His work on the cross for them) have the righteousness of God IMPUTTED TO THEM. So how can you say I can't enter heaven if I still sin in the flesh. I am accounted as righteous soley because I place my faith in God; not in my works but His works. I have God's righteousness, not my own.

It seems that the religious will never be able to see this. In the Parable below who was justified before God? The self-righteous Pharrisee or the sinner?

Luke 18:9-14 ------ The Parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector
9 Also He spoke this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
10 "Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector.
11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself,'God, I thank You that I am not like other men — extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector.
12 I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.'
13 And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me a sinner!'
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted."
NKJV



I believe what the scriptures say and do not add to them like you do. You said Abraham did more that believe; PROVE IT BY THE SCRIPTURES using the same chapter where God accounted Abrahams belief as righteousness.


Genesis 15:4-6
4 And behold, the word of the Lord came to him, saying, "This one shall not be your heir, but one who will come from your own body shall be your heir."
5 Then He brought him outside and said, "Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them." And He said to him,"So shall your descendants be."
6 And he believed in the Lord, and He accounted it to him for righteousness
NKJV


Romans 4:1-4 Abraham Justified by Faith (Genesis 17:10)
1 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh?
2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.
3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."
4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.
NKJV

But you just can't accept this scripture as it is written can you

You twist what we say the way you twist the bible to your purposes. We are saying that the bible teaches that Christ overcomes sin. If we abide in Him then we become overcomers. The way in is by faith. It is all there plain and simple in your bible.

 

[RichardBurger]

You twist what we say the way you twist the bible to your purposes. We are saying that the bible teaches that Christ overcomes sin. If we abide in Him then we become overcomers. The way in is by faith. It is all there plain and simple in your bible.

But you are indicating that you overcome by trying not to sin; by being sinless. You indicate that you are sinless in the flesh. You find it difficult to say you still sin in the flesh even though you know you do. One reason is that you might be seen as a sinnier., Being seen as righteous and without sin is important to the religious.


Genesis 15:4-6
4 And behold, the word of the Lord came to him, saying, "This one shall not be your heir, but one who will come from your own body shall be your heir."
5 Then He brought him outside and said, "Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them." And He said to him,"So shall your descendants be."
6 And he believed in the Lord, and He accounted it to him for righteousness
NKJV

Not of works but of belief.

 

[Episkopos]

But you are indicating that you overcome by trying not to sin; by being sinless. You indicate that you are sinless in the flesh. You find it difficult to say you still sin in the flesh even though you know you do. One reason is that you might be seen as a sinnier., Being seen as righteous and without sin is important to the religious.


Genesis 15:4-6
4 And behold, the word of the Lord came to him, saying, "This one shall not be your heir, but one who will come from your own body shall be your heir."
5 Then He brought him outside and said, "Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them." And He said to him,"So shall your descendants be."
6 And he believed in the Lord, and He accounted it to him for righteousness
NKJV

Not of works but of belief.

Not by effort at all...it is by location...and relationship to God. It is those who deny the power of grace that overcomes sin that are trying to be good on their own.

I can just see the venom pouring out of your mouth towards me.

Everyone seems to talk about doing work and it is in reference to the reward of salvation as if it can be bought by a person's works. That is a selfish reason called gaining by your payment of works.

Works for God under grace is to preach the gospel of grace that was given to Paul by Jesus for the Gentiles. No other Apostle was specifically sent to the Gentiles.

You must be imagining snakes. I am using actual biblical language to describe what you are doing. You are building with untempered mortar (whitewash) that will not stand on the day of judgment. What you think of those who point that out to you is not important.

 

[haz]

Not by effort at all...it is by location...and relationship to God. It is those who deny the power of grace that overcomes sin that are trying to be good on their own.


You must be imagining snakes. I am using actual biblical language to describe what you are doing. You are building with untempered mortar (whitewash) that will not stand on the day of judgment. What you think of those who point that out to you is not important.

Hi Episkopos,

Sadly you have no relationship with God. You are one of those who say you know him, but then you deny Him through your false gospel of works of the law.

Gal 2:16
knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

You deny the gospel of grace by mixing it with works of the law. You are self-condemned
To use your own words, "You are building with untempered mortar (whitewash) that will not stand on the day of judgment."

 

[Episkopos]

Hi Episkopos,

The truth is, and I know this personally, that when I read about those who God called righteous in the bible, I do not see myself as walking anywhere near the righteousness that they did. Those things should bring conviction when we examine ourselves by the standards set by those who God called righteous.

God did call some righteous as He did with Abraham and there are examples of why He said that they were righteous . If you look at the account where the Pharisees asked Jesus why He ate with tax collectors and sinners, Jesus responded that He came for the sinner and not for the righteous. He said this to the Pharisees, yet He spoke many times about their self-righteousness and the works involved with that for examples of what it means, and the leaven involved with that, which is hypocrisy.

Luke 5:32 I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

I believe that it comes down to this. If we believe that we are righteous by our own standards and that we know everything what more is there to learn? How can He work with that?

When we examine ourselves, what standards do we go by? The world sets standards for worldly things, and God sets the standard for His things. We should absolutely consider those things in the scriptures.

I do not see righteousness as having anything to do with being lifted up in our own hearts but it has more to do with humility. Knowing that we are still learning and growing is one part. Not leaning on our own understanding but believing God is also involved.



I would say the issue isn't about what I believe...we can believe all kinds of things that are not true. It's about believing the truth.
I'd say that it's about whom we believe.

Since God writes His laws upon our hearts and minds, there would be an outward sign of an inward thing.

We can hear a person say all kinds of profound things, but when we go directly to God and ask HIM for wisdom and understanding in a matter and leave our own ideas aside, He does answer, and when HE answers and shows us what something means there is no mistaking it. That is when it's written on our hearts.

Even in the examples of those who God called righteous we see that even they were still learning and growing and yes, they still made mistakes. In the case of King David, God said that he was "a man after his own heart." He loved David, yet David still made some bad choices. He was still learning and being changed. David cried out to God, and he always called God his God and repented with sorrow throughout the Psalms he was still learning, Ch.119 is a great example of that.

In comparison with King Saul, you won't find passages where he cries out to God in repentance. What I've seen in the scriptures is that when ever Saul spoke with Samuel regarding God, Saul referred to God as "the Lord your God." See the difference there between he and David?

We are being changed...I'm not perfect yet and i know that full well. But I do believe what the scriptures say, "He is faithful to finish the good work that He has begun in us."

Jeremiah 13:23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil.

The only changes that happen are with HIM because of HIM by abiding in HIM. If we believe Him we will do the things that HE said to do.

Acts 3:26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

Amen! Your heart is true!

Hi Episkopos,

Sadly you have no relationship with God. You are one of those who say you know him, but then you deny Him through your false gospel of works of the law.

Gal 2:16
knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

You deny the gospel of grace by mixing it with works of the law. You are self-condemned
To use your own words, "You are building with untempered mortar (whitewash) that will not stand on the day of judgment."

Haz you might be really good at computer games as the youth all seem to be. But you have no understanding whatsover of spiritual things. Instead of coming here to learn something you assume you are the champion like in a video game where you are trying to outscore your "opponents". You are way out of your league here.

 

[RichardBurger]

Not by effort at all...it is by location...and relationship to God. It is those who deny the power of grace that overcomes sin that are trying to be good on their own.



You must be imagining snakes. I am using actual biblical language to describe what you are doing. You are building with untempered mortar (whitewash) that will not stand on the day of judgment. What you think of those who point that out to you is not important.

I back up everything I say with the scriptures. The power of grace is that it is powerful enough to save sinners. But you don't need grace do you? All you need is to say you are walking in the spirit and do not sin and you just can't see that you still sin in the flesh.

To continue to reply to you will not further anything but more arguing so I will stop. I have better things to do.

 

[haz]

Haz you might be really good at computer games as the youth all seem to be. But you have no understanding whatsover of spiritual things. Instead of coming here to learn something you assume you are the champion like in a video game where you are trying to outscore your "opponents". You are way out of your league here.

Hi Episkopos,

You assume too much in saying I'm a youth with a computer games champion mentality. But we see this same fantasy and assumption in your understanding on scriptures too. Even your fantasy that your an overseer over the church, reveals your error.

You are wrong saying that I'm out of my league with you. Your lack of understanding on scriptures proves that.
The reality is that we are in different leagues. Either we walk according to the Spirit OR the flesh.
Those led by the Spirit are not under the law (Gal 5:18).

But your in the league of being in the flesh as you judge righteousness by works of the law. Therefore your own lawlessness condemns you. You are in unbelief and if you don't repent and turn to God you will not enter His rest.

 

[dragonfly]

Hello haz,

Even your fantasy that your an overseer over the church, reveals your error.

This is your construction. No-one deserves this kind of harrassment for a username. This is a forum - for friendly disucssion... you know?

Jesus said we judge a tree by its fruit. Matt 7:16. It's not the sole province of an overseer. And just on that point, how would you know whether God has made Episkopos an overseer, or not, unless you are part of his local church, or, unless you start hearing from God through him?

That you don't understand what he explains, and you (and others) keep accusing him of promoting a works-for-salvation gospel, as if Ephesians 2:10 is not in your own BIble, is a mystery.

There is a law in the New Covenant, of a higher standard than in the Mosaic law, which Christians are believed by God to have been equipped to keep through His gift of the Holy Spirit; who has written it in our hearts, and which He gives to those who obey Him. Matt 7:21.

 

[haz]

Hello haz,



This is your construction. No-one deserves this kind of harrassment for a username. This is a forum - for friendly disucssion... you know?

Jesus said we judge a tree by its fruit. Matt 7:16. It's not the sole province of an overseer. And just on that point, how would you know whether God has made Episkopos an overseer, or not, unless you are part of his local church, or, unless you start hearing from God through him?

That you don't understand what he explains, and you (and others) keep accusing him of promoting a works-for-salvation gospel, as if Ephesians 2:10 is not in your own BIble, is a mystery.

There is a law in the New Covenant, of a higher standard than in the Mosaic law, which Christians are believed by God to have been equipped to keep through His gift of the Holy Spirit; who has written it in our hearts, and which He gives to those who obey Him. Matt 7:21.

Hi dragonfly,

Again you are answering on behalf of Episkopos without first understanding what he is saying.

Episkopos has said he knows of nobody with similar understanding of the truth like he has. Therefore he find's it lonely as he has nobody to fellowship with. From this we can see that he is not fellowshipping in a church, as you suggested he might be, therefore he is not even an overseer within a local fellowship like you suggested.

His claim to be an overseer over the church is a fantasy claim as his false gospel confirms that he has no ministry from God.

I note however that you allign yourself with Episkopos and his false gospel, even to the point of ignoring his ridicule of others he disagrees with on this forum. This is quite a hypocritical stance you take.

 

[dragonfly]

Hello haz,

Thanks for acknowledging my post.

The gospel Episkopos is proclaiming, is the same as Paul proclaimed. He may not be doing it as elquently as Paul, but no-where does Paul state that there is no law to be kept because of grace. The whole of Romans 6 is about this - yeilding our bodies as instruments of righteousness unto holiness, that we may bear fruit unto God. Jesus said we can do nothing unless we abide in Him, and He knew we cannot be abiding in Him if we are sinning. This is why He began His preaching ministry with the word 'Repent'. Repentance is a real spiritual event by which our attitude toward sin remains changed. This is one of the steps to receiving the power (Holy Spirit) to overcome the world, the flesh and the devil. I've proved this gospel.

You can say what you like about it if you must, but it won't change the spiritual dynamic by which God saves those who believe.

 

[haz]

Hello haz,

Thanks for acknowledging my post.

The gospel Episkopos is proclaiming, is the same as Paul proclaimed. He may not be doing it as elquently as Paul, but no-where does Paul state that there is no law to be kept because of grace. The whole of Romans 6 is about this - yeilding our bodies as instruments of righteousness unto holiness, that we may bear fruit unto God. Jesus said we can do nothing unless we abide in Him, and He knew we cannot be abiding in Him if we are sinning. This is why He began His preaching ministry with the word 'Repent'. Repentance is a real spiritual event by which our attitude toward sin remains changed. This is one of the steps to receiving the power (Holy Spirit) to overcome the world, the flesh and the devil. I've proved this gospel.

You can say what you like about it if you must, but it won't change the spiritual dynamic by which God saves those who believe.

Hi Dragonfly.

I'm curious whether you follow the same doctrine of Episkopos that if you are not perfectly obeying the 10 commandments then your not abiding in Christ?

Using your own life as an example, have you perfectly kept the 10 commandments since you became a Christian having repented?

 

[dragonfly]

Hi haz,

I'm curious whether you follow the same doctrine of Episkopos that if you are not perfectly obeying the 10 commandments then your not abiding in Christ?

You keep asking about the 10 commandments, but I have not seen you mention the New Covenant.

Could you please note for me the key differences between the Old and the New Covenant? (No need to explain in detail. Bullet points okay.)