‘I SAID, YOU ARE GODS’?

[Karl Peters]

He doesn't live in our flesh!

Right now you are in the flesh!!!

And you are the temple of God!

You read this and contradict it, and right at the beginning of what you write.

Even if you were to think about the verses you used, and sought the Lord about them, you could easily see you are wrong! Now look at the last thing you wrote - it contradicts the first thing you wrote:

"And be not afraid of those killing the body, and are not able to kill the soul, but fear rather Him who is able both soul and body to destroy in gehenna." Matt.10:28
Here we have a distinction between body and soul. I like what CS Lewis said, We are a living soul, we have a body. What is a living soul. A plant or tree is not a living soul. It does not have consciousness, a mind, emotions, will, personality. Animals have souls, but they do not have a spirit.

The very fact that when the fleshy body is killed our spirit will god on to another place clearly indicates we are living in our fleshy body right now!! How did you miss that - or are you just being argumentative and trying to be clever by your own understanding.

I can appreciate even being cleaver. God is wise and He uses parables. Is there not one comparing us with a clay jar. But don't use His wisdom, it would show you that you are indeed now living in your flesh.

Now we could go over what is written between the first and last of what you wrote, but it would be better if you talked to Him, the First and Last, and listen to Him a bit!!

Do it by faith. It would seem you have at least the very little faith in Him to actually believe He is with you, right???

And that while you are in that clay jar that we call the flesh.


If anyone cares to believe it, The Lord asked me to preach Him as the Word of God because He will speak to us, and indeed wants to speak to us!! He has talked to my many times and in many ways, and made it clear that is His purpose for me, at least at this time. He once had me go to Ezekiel 3 and ask me to read, and as I read He spoke to me personally giving me a similar instruction to what He gave to Ezekiel - telling me that He was going to send me to a people that should listen to me, but that they would be unwilling to listen to me because they are unwilling to listen to Him!! And you should know and understand that I find Him speaking to me from within me!! I find Him near me, in my heart and sometimes I even find His words coming out my mouth. And that is the Word of God I am preaching to those people, who should be willing to listen to Him but are not!!

And I find them where He takes me to - that being on this Christian forum!!

Is not your heart, that place where you find His words spoken to you, in you??

So how is it any Christian would write:

He doesn't live in our flesh!

Did they not even read:

Roman 10:8 But what does it say? “THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,

So I guess I could point out all the things gotten wrong in the middle, like:

* The spirit and soul are the heart of man. It is highly integrated, yet separate, part of us is pure and the other part not. When we die our pure spirit moves on leaving the flesh behind.

* The Most Holy Place is our spirit, where God dwells - In Christ.

But of course for now all contained in our fleshy body - so Ronald David Bruno is just be argumentative - with statements like :It is highly integrated, yet separate"! Perhaps He didn't read:

Ecc 7:16 Do not be excessively righteous and do not be overly wise. Why should you ruin yourself?

or

Rev 3:20 ‘Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.

Did he miss the "I will come in to him"?

No, I think that he wouldn't miss that, but instead wants to just argue over the fact that our spirit and soul (which happens to be in that jar we call the flesh) in somehow separated from our spirit and soul but then he has to confess that it is somehow all integrated right now, but that in being integrated is does not mean in that clay jar.

That is being "excessively righteous" as opposed to actually seeking the Lord's voice by faith!!

Still the Word of the Lord we preach is found near us - in our hearts - and if we indeed open up to Him He will "come in to us".

It is amazing what we will do and say to avoid not seeking Him and His voice!!

We will be excessively religious - and do we not understand that our religion is our understanding of Him and not His understanding!! So being religious means leaning on our understanding instead of actually seek Him. And that is why He winds up sending me to His people who should listen to Him but are unwilling to do so. And why He told me that He was making my head as hard as their head. It is just not easy to get through to some people. Which is like me also. To get through to me, He keeps having me write: "Hear, O Israel" I too have to keep being reminded, and I too am hard headed - even made that way to accomplish the Lord's purpose, which is to get all of us hard headed Christian to actually turn back to Him and listen!!

He says He loves us, even when we argue and dispute silly little things like 'Is He in our flesh when He comes into us? Or perhaps our spirit and soul are separate but integrated with our flesh?' Oh My God - how silly we must sound to you!?

Never-the-less - I will try to do what He has asked me to do, because He words are spirit and are life to those of us who will actually listen to Him - whether we be hard headed or not!

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Right now you are in the flesh!!!

And you are the temple of God!

You read this and contradict it, and right at the beginning of what you write.

For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish.
We are a new creature, spiritually pure that is separate from our flesh -YET - being high integrated ( body, soul and spirit), we function both in flesh and spirit. Both war against eachother. We are to render our old self as dead yet fall back ( backsliding) into our old ways.
The Bible over and over again encourages us to walk in the spirit and not allow the lusts of the flesh to tempt us. Why? They are still there, remnants of our old ways.
Know that our spiritual compartment is where the Holy Spirit dwells. He does not dwell with sin, He is separate from sin that dwells in the members of our flesh.

 

[WalkInLight]

He doesn't live in our flesh!
Soul = Mind, Will, Emotions, Personality (range of habits), talents, the invisible you.
Spirit = The New Eternal you which takes all that is good of you. As the mind is highly integrated with the brain, our spirit is our purified self. We are born with a dead spirit or spiritual compartment if your will. We can think of this as a God compartment within us that is empty, like a cell phone without a battery. Then we are born again, transformed, thisbdead spiritual essence comes to life and God dwells in this place.

Man is designed like the Old Testament Temple. It was a physical template, divided into different sections, it had a Most Holy Place (the Holy of Holies), where God dwelled, behind the veil. Only the High Priest could enter. It was where the Ark of the Covenant was as well.

* When our High Priest (Jesus) enters our hearts (the Temple), He enters into the Courtyard, then into the Holy Place and then lifts the veil of the Most Holy Place so we can see ourselves and the world and have communion with Him.

* The Most Holy Place is our spirit, where God dwells - In Christ.

* The WORD enters in and divides the soul and spirit. The proof text:
"For the Word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart. Hebrews 4:12

* The Holy Place represents our soul.

* The spirit and soul are the heart of man. It is highly integrated, yet separate, part of us is pure and the other part not. When we die our pure spirit moves on leaving the flesh behind.

* The Courtyard represents our body.

** Our soul and body (the flesh) is where sin dwells.

* The Table of Showbread contained the bread and wine which represents our fellowship (communion) with God.

* The Lampstand was always lit in the Old Temple. Since Jesus is the Light, we are now able to see spiritually.

* The Bronze Laver was used for cleansing before entering the tabernacle to perform sacrifices. It represents the cleansing of the new believer, the baptism by water and our willingness to receive forgiveness and spiritual cleansing.

"And be not afraid of those killing the body, and are not able to kill the soul, but fear rather Him who is able both soul and body to destroy in gehenna." Matt.10:28
Here we have a distinction between body and soul. I like what CS Lewis said, We are a living soul, we have a body. What is a living soul. A plant or tree is not a living soul. It does not have consciousness, a mind, emotions, will, personality. Animals have souls, but they do not have a spirit.

It struck me recently that heresy often starts out with perspectives or frameworks which draw various spiritual conclusions. These conclusions lead to behaviours and approaches. For some the behaviours and approaches are blessed and good while others sinful and destructive.

The debate between words heart, soul, spirit is difficult because in scripture they are often used interchangeably. It strikes me this might be over simplifying interactions between our biological drives and spiritual aspirations and spiritual life. Paul talks about sowing to the Spirit that leads to life and sowing to the flesh that leads to death. Jesus talks about His word dwelling in our hearts and minds.

So it struck me that love and its perspective through the cross is our walk, a humble heart with a giving spirit. So language like Jesus dwelling in us, could reflect His word and life is embedded in all that we do, or is a super-spiritual actual presence through the Holy Spirit. The difficulty comes when sinful behaviour, anger, jealousy, lust, unresolved grudges and hurt arise. Are we dwelt by God and holy and pure or does the Lord leave us when we get overwhelmed? I do not think even the apostles knew the answer, just some are called and stay faithful while others fall away. OCD or addictive behaviour does not disappear on coming to faith, so there is a battle and the will and choice of the heart overcoming difficulties.

We as a whole with a new body will enter heaven, but we are the totality of all of us. One of the dilemmas Paul addresses is the daily choice of how we invest our time and energy, what we approve of and what we condemn. The gnostic view is to split ourselves into pure spirit and sinful flesh, but this leads to the abdication of responsibility for sinful behaviour and does not address the power of love to transform who we are. I speak as a transformed person who has grown in love, life and maturity through the power of Christ at work in me.

God bless you

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

The gnostic view is to split ourselves into pure spirit and sinful flesh, but this leads to the abdication of responsibility for sinful behaviour and does not address the power of love to transform who we are

I don't agree. This is not a gnostic view. The Holy Spirit does sanctify us to do good works. We are transformed by the renewing of our minds.
When one is born again, we are set apart, sanctified, sealed instantly, spiritually. However, we do not automatically begin to behave purely and holy. The Spirit begins to grow our spirits gradually and this in turn sheds light on our outward behavior. The fruit of the Spirit grow. In some areas, it takes time to mature. My patience for one is not as mature as some other areas. My love and giving also need work. I have more self control more peace, hope, kindness, goodness, etc., then I did 30 years ago. Nevertheless, I am still a sinner until I die and/or am resurrected, whichever ones first.
The Bible states that we have body, soul and spirit. Each part is not the same but is highly integrated. Which part of you has been cleansed and has been given life? Your flesh or body? No, your spirit. Stephen was stoned to death and in his last breath he called out to God to receive his spirit, the part of him that was purified.
Sin dwells in the members of our flesh. And we are still sinners; yet there is a part if us that has been purified. It has to be. At any moment we could die, go to heaven as pure spirits. Now most people won't delve into advanced theology; nor will they see the connection between the Old Temple construction and our New Spiritual Temple in man, which I explained in post # 20.
Flesh and body does not enter heaven, nor does the Holy Spirit dwell in your flesh. He dwells the our Most Holy Place, not where sin dwells, where our spirit communes with Him. Think of it as a clean room in your house. If you or others can't grasp that concept, it's fine. My church gave a study on the nature and makeup of man 25 years ago. Sarx and pneuma were studied in depth, and also the design of the Old Temple. Most people might not even question what the soul is and think it is just another word for spirit. Some people just don't get into that stuff and keep it simple. To each his own understanding. The Holy Spirit will guide you and give every person what they need to know within their capacity to understand.

 

[Karl Peters]

For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish.
We are a new creature, spiritually pure that is separate from our flesh -YET - being high integrated ( body, soul and spirit), we function both in flesh and spirit. Both war against eachother. We are to render our old self as dead yet fall back ( backsliding) into our old ways.
The Bible over and over again encourages us to walk in the spirit and not allow the lusts of the flesh to tempt us. Why? They are still there, remnants of our old ways.
Know that our spiritual compartment is where the Holy Spirit dwells. He does not dwell with sin, He is separate from sin that dwells in the members of our flesh.

Actually God is omni-present and if indeed you have flesh then did that not also come from God who made all things??

God is spirit, and yes our flesh may fight against the Spirit - but you have made a jump in logic!!!!!

All things are from Him - yet some do not seek Him and listen to Him!! And you are wrong to think that He separated us from sin!!

Rom 7:21 I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good.

Rev 3:20 ‘Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.

The above two verse explain clearly that evil is present in us!!! And the If we hear the voice of the Lord He will come IN TO us!!

But you are trying to come to a conclusion that He does not actually dwell in us!! That somehow you are not now body, soul, and spirit!! But rather you say there is this flesh that is not you, but you are still in that fleshy body!!!! And deny the principle that evil is present in you!! And you deny that God came into you - because He only came into your soul and spirit!! And you do not realize that He made you, has put up with you, and thereby you deny that you have sin in you!!

1 Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.

So who has been lying to you!!

We have this issue with sin!! We find that it is in us!! Indeed it is a actually "principle", and not just some random idea that leaning on your own understanding will change!!

As for God - well He is omni-present meaning that He is everywhere!! So what do we really mean by Him coming into us?? He and His Kingdom is already in our midst! Him coming into us is really more about us opening up to Him, spiritually speaking, and letting Him speak to us so that we listen to Him!!

So He has always been everywhere, but the rebellious refuse to understand this and don't seek Him!! Therefore the 'religious person' seeks after their own religion, where of course religion is their understanding of God - and that is not the same as seeking the Lord our God and listening to Him!! That is opposed to the real Christian, you seeks after the voice of the Lord for His understanding!! If they indeed seek Him they will indeed find Him, and will find out that He was indeed always with them and doing things for them even before they knew Him!!

There is a reason that He is called and often even refers to Himself as the "I AM"

So the problem is that we are so into our own flesh and our own ideas, that we keep seeing things according to our understanding instead of seeking Him!! And that is what we mean by Him not dwelling with us. He was always right there in us, around us, and looking to talk to us!! There is no place that He is not!!

1 Cor 2:10 For to us God revealed them through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God.

So you say God does not dwell with your flesh, but the Scriptures say the Spirit searches "ALL THINGS", thereby proving you to be wrong!!

So what you need to do is seek Him, listen to Him, and that will increase your understanding - because the Spirit even searches the depths of God - so you can also find out more about Him!! You will find out how He is everywhere, knowing what every one thinks (even the thoughts of their flesh), and you will find out that He knows you better than you know yourself, and that includes His knowing about your flesh and how it works!! After all He created that too - that part of you that rebels against God and gets you leaning on your own understanding!!

As for now, you are still body, soul, and spirit, and so it is no use trying to say that you are not! And the Lord comes into you and helps you, though in fact He was already in your midst only you didn't listen to Him!! So Him coming into you if you listen really only means that He will come into your life and start influencing you to live a better life! It means you are stopping being so rebellious and a person who just leans on their own understanding of God as opposed to seeking His understanding of all things!!

This morning during my time with Him that I take every morning in my favorite chair He specifically pointed out this verse - which seems perfect for this thread at this time! It shows the importance of seeking Him!!

1 Chronicles 28:9 “As for you, my son Solomon, know the God of your father, and serve Him with a whole heart and a willing mind; for the LORD searches all hearts, and understands every intent of the thoughts. If you seek Him, He will let you find Him; but if you forsake Him, He will reject you forever.

Seek Him and you will find that He was always in your midst!!! He has always understood all you thoughts and intent - which are mostly those rebellious thoughts of leaning on our understanding and not His!! Did not Moses clearly explain that the word was near you, in your heart and mouth and that to a people who said "Let not God speak to us"!! You fail to understand that God was near them, in their hearts and mouth, even when they were sinners not willing to listen to Him, but rather were leaning on their own understanding!! The fact is that God dwells with men even when we don't listen to Him!! But if we seek Him we find that Him - that He was always there for us!!

But you come up with silly things, and want to argue instead of actually seek the Lord. So it was that I asked Him if He needed me to post anything this morning and He told me, "I only need you to respond to what was written to you."

So my response is that you need to actually seek Him and what He has to say to you, so I don't have to be told to keep reminding you over and over and over - to seek Him and His voice!! Listen to Him!!! And quit trying to be so religious!! Quit trying to make it so complicated!! He is simply their to talk to people and about all their problems - including and mostly their battles they have with their flesh and the principle that evil is in them!!

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

But you are trying to come to a conclusion that He does not actually dwell in us!!

No. I explained to you that the Holy Spirit dwells in us. You just don't understand where _ in us. It's okay, don't strain yourself.

... That somehow you are not now body, soul, and spirit!!

In post #20 I tried to explained the intricacies of the spiritual man by comparing the design of the Old Temple to our New Temple but that was possibly too deep. Sorry.

And you deny that God came into you - because He only came into your soul and spirit

I deny God entered my flesh. Well gee, that was my main objection to your OP. He entered into my new creature, my spirit, my Most Holy Place - where we communicate together. Again it is not where sin dwells - in the flesh.

Let's just put this topic on the shelf ... out of reach. God Bless.

 

[ButterflyJones]

Jn 10:31 - 38 The Jews picked up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, “I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?” The Jews answered Him, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God.” Jesus answered them, “Has it not been written in your Law, ‘I SAID, YOU ARE GODS’? “If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), do you say of Him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’? “If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; but if I do them, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father.”

There is a certain subject that the Jews had trouble with when Jesus the Christ was on earth in the flesh!! They had trouble with Him being One with the Father!!

So I guess it would not be surprising that there are those today who have trouble with the idea of the Oneness of God!! Some want to argue about how the Lord our God is One Lord - and that the Holy Spirit says Jesus Christ is Lord!

Mark 12:29 Jesus answered, “The foremost is, ‘HEAR, O ISRAEL! THE LORD OUR GOD IS ONE LORD;

Deut 6:4 “Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one!

1 Cor 12:3 Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus is accursed”; and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

Of course who don't know Jesus Christ is our Lord and is also God, are going to have a problem with Jesus Christ being the Lord our God, no matter how often this is discussed in the Scriptures! Still, this Oneness is discussed over and over and over again in the Bible, despite what they think! Indeed, if you read the Bible you will note that this Oneness is what saves us, because we are saved because we come into a oneness with God ourselves!!

Jn 17: 19 - 22 “For their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they themselves also may be sanctified in truth. “I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word; hat they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me. “The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one;

Jesus prayed that we would be one with Him even as He is one with His Father. Of course we are not perfect like Him!! He is the perfect image of the invisible God, and is one with His Father, so He is God - even if the religious Jews back then didn't like Him being God!!!

And note that when He prays He gets what He asks for! The true believer, whether anyone cares to believe it or not, becomes one with Jesus Christ, because He sends His Holy Spirit to indwell us. Of course that doesn't mean we are the perfect image of the invisible God!! We still too often lean on our understanding instead of doing and saying only what the Lord our God tells us. But still we have the Holy Spirit of God (meaning God) inside us. What did we think it meant when we read about being Born Again. When Born Again, we are born of the Holy Spirit, meaning it is not just us in us, but God also is in us. We are a new creature in Christ, because we have His spirit in us, to listen to if we decide to listen. So we hear the sound of the wind (the Holy Spirit) who indwells us!!

That is why it was written "he called them gods, to whom the word of God came"

We get salvation when His Holy Spirit comes into us! And the Holy Spirit brings us the words that the Lord our God Jesus Christ has to speak to us personally - which is why "to whom the word of God came"!!

Now I certainly don't feel like any god, even with a small "g"!! Never-the Less, I do hear from my Lord vis His Holy Spirit speaking His words to my spirit. And also, by following His instructions, there have been times in my life when I have seen miracles!! Hundreds of them, actually! I can't do them, but i can do what He asks of me, and He has asked me at times to pray for other people, and then I saw miracles happen! Honestly, it seems that the Holy Spirit who indwells me provides the power of God to do the miracles that I see happen. Indeed, often I feel something like power flowing through me when I have laid hands on a person and prayed like I was told to pray.

Honestly, it is all kind of weird!! What I like is the relationship with my Lord Jesus Christ. I like talking to Him, and hearing what He says. The miracles are just kind of a side thing that occasionally happens when I am doing what He askes me to do from in me. The Word of God I preach (Jesus Christ talking to me) is found near me, even in my heart... and sometimes I find The Word of God in my mouth. So maybe I could be considered a god, like it is written. But I don't think about it much. I just like to think about hearing from my friend Jesus Christ! He is the Lord my God and is One with His Father, whether others like it or not!!!

You are God's can be interpreted either as we are God's people. Or, we are God's, as when Jesus said we will do the works he performed and even more.

 

[Karl Peters]

You are God's can be interpreted either as we are God's people. Or, we are God's, as when Jesus said we will do the works he performed and even more.

Both are the same thing!!

If we are indeed "God's people" then we serve Him, and that means we listen to Him and we do (or at least try to do) what He asks us to do.

And when we listen to Him, the King over the Kingdom of God, then the power of the Kingdom of God is behind us!! Therefore we do the works he performed and even more, if more is needed and we truly listen and believe like we should!

Of course a part of us doing more than Him, might also be due to the fact that there are many of us in the flesh that He can control from His throne in the Kingdom of God. Where as when He took on flesh He was "a" (as in singular) man.

 

[Karl Peters]

No. I explained to you that the Holy Spirit dwells in us. You just don't understand where _ in us. It's okay, don't strain yourself.

In post #20 I tried to explained the intricacies of the spiritual man by comparing the design of the Old Temple to our New Temple but that was possibly too deep. Sorry.

I deny God entered my flesh. Well gee, that was my main objection to your OP. He entered into my new creature, my spirit, my Most Holy Place - where we communicate together. Again it is not where sin dwells - in the flesh.

Let's just put this topic on the shelf ... out of reach. God Bless.

If you say that God dwells in us, but does not enter our flesh, then you have some problems. How then does God heal issues in our flesh?

He had me work in a healing ministry for five years, and there is an interesting thing that happens when working that ministry. I, and others, would pray for those coming in, and often I and others would fell something like power, or electricity, that flowed through my arms, then my hands, and seemingly into the other person who was being prayed for! And we would be praying something like "Lord move in on them with your Holy Spirit'. And amazingly, we would also see swelling of the flesh go down, and legs grow out, and physical issues of the flesh get solved!! Not only that, we sometimes would ask the Lord to remove the things (we were referring to evil sinful spirits though we were careful how we put it so as to not offend those we were praying for) and sometimes we saw action in their flesh that indicated that those things were removed!

So how does that work with your conclusion? It doesn't!!

God made the flesh. Jesus even took on flesh when He came to earth. If sin only dwells in your flesh, have you not ever seen God help people with the problems even in their flesh? And how can anyone say that the flesh fights against God if there is no interaction between God and the flesh?

Now by saying that we are called gods, that mean we, as in us body soul and spirit. Yes, we are going to leave our flesh behind someday, but our promise is not only for eternal life, but also for more in this life also. And that obviously includes help with our flesh.

Still, my point is that we need to actually spend time talking with the Lord and listening to Him. And if anyone does that they should learn a lot, but mainly they learn they don't know - the Lord does. During the 20 plus years I have been talking back and forth with Him, the main thing I have found out is that He is Wisdom, Understanding, and knowledge, and not me!! And the more I listen to Him the more I know that I am not Wisdom, Understanding, and Knowledge!!

Because of that understanding, my main point on all I write here is that we need to listen to Him. Now I don't mind sharing things He taught me, like when He told me, "Karl, understanding is understanding that I Am Understanding, Understand?"

And I started this thread because He was giving me some understanding about who we don't understand that we are gods, because we are being made one with Him, like He is One with the Father, and that according to what He asked (Jn 17) He had been teaching me that if we talked to Him more, then we would understand how we are one with Him more, because that talking back and forth is how we become one with Him. And as we got that increased understanding, we would come to understand that because we are one with Him, like He asked, more is available to us - gods (us being one with Him)

Peter took His hand and believing He was one with Jesus, Peter walked on water. Only a god can do that, but how well we understand where we stand with God!!

 

[WalkInLight]

If you say that God dwells in us, but does not enter our flesh, then you have some problems. How then does God heal issues in our flesh?

He had me work in a healing ministry for five years, and there is an interesting thing that happens when working that ministry. I, and others, would pray for those coming in, and often I and others would fell something like power, or electricity, that flowed through my arms, then my hands, and seemingly into the other person who was being prayed for! And we would be praying something like "Lord move in on them with your Holy Spirit'. And amazingly, we would also see swelling of the flesh go down, and legs grow out, and physical issues of the flesh get solved!! Not only that, we sometimes would ask the Lord to remove the things (we were referring to evil sinful spirits though we were careful how we put it so as to not offend those we were praying for) and sometimes we saw action in their flesh that indicated that those things were removed!

So how does that work with your conclusion? It doesn't!!

God made the flesh. Jesus even took on flesh when He came to earth. If sin only dwells in your flesh, have you not ever seen God help people with the problems even in their flesh? And how can anyone say that the flesh fights against God if there is no interaction between God and the flesh?

Now by saying that we are called gods, that mean we, as in us body soul and spirit. Yes, we are going to leave our flesh behind someday, but our promise is not only for eternal life, but also for more in this life also. And that obviously includes help with our flesh.

Still, my point is that we need to actually spend time talking with the Lord and listening to Him. And if anyone does that they should learn a lot, but mainly they learn they don't know - the Lord does. During the 20 plus years I have been talking back and forth with Him, the main thing I have found out is that He is Wisdom, Understanding, and knowledge, and not me!! And the more I listen to Him the more I know that I am not Wisdom, Understanding, and Knowledge!!

Because of that understanding, my main point on all I write here is that we need to listen to Him. Now I don't mind sharing things He taught me, like when He told me, "Karl, understanding is understanding that I Am Understanding, Understand?"

And I started this thread because He was giving me some understanding about who we don't understand that we are gods, because we are being made one with Him, like He is One with the Father, and that according to what He asked (Jn 17) He had been teaching me that if we talked to Him more, then we would understand how we are one with Him more, because that talking back and forth is how we become one with Him. And as we got that increased understanding, we would come to understand that because we are one with Him, like He asked, more is available to us - gods (us being one with Him)

Peter took His hand and believing He was one with Jesus, Peter walked on water. Only a god can do that, but how well we understand where we stand with God!!

"we don't understand that we are gods"

In mythology a god has creative power, the ability to command creation from themselves, without reference to another power.
In scripture only the Father has creative power. Jesus compared forgiving sins and healing as being equal, so if He could heal He could also forgive sins. The apostles when sent out were given specific authority

"He called his twelve disciples to him and gave them authority to drive out evil spirits and to heal every disease and sickness."
Matt 10:1

Calling the Twelve to him, he sent them out two by two and gave them authority over evil spirits.
Mark 6:7

When Jesus had called the Twelve together, he gave them power and authority to drive out all demons and to cure diseases,
and he sent them out to preach the kingdom of God and to heal the sick.
Luke 9:1-2

The healing and authority of the 12 was specific to this time, and through acts each healing talked about was special.
And it was authority given not innate with being in the Kingdom.

It is therefore impossible to match the concept we are innately gods with us following Jesus. Rather Jesus can give us authority to do things through the power of the Lord, and that alone. And the power is exercised as an emphasis on the message and not innate to itself.

If church history teaches us anything as soon as people get into super-spiritual power everything goes wrong, because the healer becomes the focus rather than Jesus, and financial gain takes over and greed.

The apostles emphasis rather than us being gods, we are to think of others better than ourselves and serve their needs as well as our own.

Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit, but in humility consider others better than yourselves.
Each of you should look not only to your own interests, but also to the interests of others.
Phil 2:3-4

The strange reality about love is the trinity serves each other, and do not dominate. The principle of the Lord is service and need, seeing sadness and burdens a real issue that needs addressing but the true cause of our suffering is the sin in the world over which in Gods love we overcome.

It is the words and law that Jesus brings if it dwells in our hearts brings freedom to our lives. Ironically having authority to heal and drive out demons does not enhance or change this reality, which is why I am cautious when attempts are made to try and claim the miraculous is a badge of authority when Jesus declares it is love one to another which is reality of God at work among His people. God bless you

 

[WalkInLight]

Flesh - physical body or worldly desires which enhance our earthly existence.

Watch out for those dogs, those men who do evil, those mutilators of the flesh Phil 3:2
Dispute regarding circumcision.

Do not be deceived. God will not be made a fool. For a person will reap what he sows,
because the person who sows to his own flesh will reap corruption from the flesh, but the one who sows to the Spirit will reap eternal life from the Spirit.
Gal 6:7-8 Net bible

Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows.
The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.
Gal 6:7-8

The greek word σάρκα (sarka) means flesh used both for sinful nature and physical form or some part of it.

There is a problem when we take some of Pauls writing about us being a Holy temple,

Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own;
you were bought at a price. Therefore honour God with your body
1 Cor 6:19-20

The problem is we equate holiness with perfection, while cleansed vessels are not perfect but Holy.
This makes sense through repentance and cleansing, while growing in grace and love, sanctification.
This also emphasises our bodies are purified and not evil in themselves, which is the tendency to equate our bodies with sinful nature, so get rid of our bodies gets rid of our sinful nature.

Paul emphasises with live with our desires but choose to sow to our sinful nature or the Spirit, and sowing to the Spirit will reap eternal life.
The emphasis here being is we sow to our sinful nature we will be destroyed even if we have faith, it is a walk, with fruit.

 

[WalkInLight]

You may ask why is "you are gods" so dangerous an idea?

It is because its root foundation when emphasised is rebellion against the Father and gives authority to the individual to go their own way.
As preached by various prosperity preachers, they claimed they had authority on earth and the Lord had to ask their permission to come to earth from them. This was a logical extension of their heresy, but for some insane reason they had no clue that claiming spiritual authority like this is blasphemy.

Worse still though some have "repented" of their position, they showed they are spiritually blind, and no repentance of a theological heresy changes where they really are at. Often their ministries rely on convincing the hearers they know God and make the people feel good through music and deceptive flattery, and thereby extract money to their cause, because how could they not be so blessed unless God had prospered them, rather than how could they not be so successful unless the deception was so fantastically self serving.

And what better an emblem could the preachers have than "we are gods" and do not speak against the Lords anointed.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

If you say that God dwells in us, but does not enter our flesh, then you have some problems. How then does God heal issues in our flesh?

How did Jesus heal? He didn't need to touch the person, but at times he did. Healing power miraculously transfered into the person as God heals us. He doesn't need to enter I to our flesh.

But this is NOT the flesh I am talking about.
In Greek, "flesh" is sarx (Strong's #4561). Jesus and Paul commonly used the term as a metaphor for sinful man's nature, sometimes also described as "carnal." Sarx is morally negative, even though by creation a person's flesh is not intrinsically negative. This is the unregenerate, immoral and spiritual state of man that almost continuously generates sinful acts. "Flesh," then, represents the inward, carnal lustful desires rather than muscle, skin, and bones—disposition rather than composition.

Paul writes in Romans 7:18, "I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells," meaning nothing good spiritually.

So it is the human, carnal nature, where sin generates from. The heart of man is his soul: mind, will, emotions. Your eyes, ( part of your flesh) sees something, but then your mind thinks about it. Desires, lusts, thoughts begin in your mind.
I was taught that your mind uses your brain, but is not physical. The brain sends chemical and electrical messages to the body, but you can't disect a brain and see thoughts, ideas or desires. When you die you have a "purified mind, emotions, will, now perfectly integrated with your spirit, but your brain stays behind.

Of course the Bible also refers to the physical body as flesh too. The "physical" members of the flesh influence our behavior as well. Hunger, sex, sensory satisfaction, basic survival needs.

"For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God." (Romans 8:6-8)

So now we have the mind operating in two areas, spiritually and carnally. We are to gain control of that. We are to be spiritually minded. Otherwise we can be accused of being double-minded.
Hence, "walk in the spirit, not in the flesh" is an obvious command and distinction between the two nature's of man.

He had me work in a healing ministry for five years, and there is an interesting thing that happens when working that ministry. I, and others, would pray for those coming in, and often I and others would fell something like power, or electricity, that flowed through my arms, then my hands, and seemingly into the other person who was being prayed for! And we would be praying something like "Lord move in on them with your Holy Spirit'. And amazingly, we would also see swelling of the flesh go down, and legs grow out, and physical issues of the flesh get solved!! Not only that, we sometimes would ask the Lord to remove the things (we were referring to evil sinful spirits though we were careful how we put it so as to not offend those we were praying for) and sometimes we saw action in their flesh that indicated that those things were removed!

So how does that work with your conclusion? It doesn't!!

Wonderful, sounds like you have a spiritual gift of healing. But again, God heals us by His power. I doubt that He enters into the physical anatomy on a cellular level to make repairs, doesn't have to. He thinks things into existence. In a sense, in Him all things are held together (consist). That means every atom in the universe. That is above my mind to comprehend, I just accept it.

God made the flesh. Jesus even took on flesh when He came to earth. If sin only dwells in your flesh, have you not ever seen God help people with the problems even in their flesh? And how can anyone say that the flesh fights against God if there is no interaction between God and the flesh?

Read again my above answer defining sarx.

Now by saying that we are called gods, that mean we, as in us body soul and spirit.

You are human and born again spiritually, but you are not a god. You really need to get off that train. I already explained Psalm 82 to you, a reference to rulers, magistrates or judges - who are like gods, in authority and judgments. The message of that scripture is about God's ultimate judgments over them; and that they need to keep that in perspective.
Can you create life, a galaxy or even just one planet? Then you are not a god. Angels can't either. We will never be able to do that, nor have omniscience, omnipresence or omnipotence, which are His attributes alone!

And as we got that increased understanding, we would come to understand that because we are one with Him, like He asked, more is available to us - gods (us being one with Him)

Being one with God's will and purpose, being able to commune with Him is our destiny. But get real, we will never be a god.
Our resurrected eternal bodies will have awesome abilities, like the angels have, being able to travel distances in a flash, in and out of the spiritual realm, likely as quick as a thought. We will be like Jesus. But Jesus is God, the CREATOR.

Honestly this talk of being gods reminds me of Mormon theology.

 

[Karl Peters]

"we don't understand that we are gods"

In mythology a god has creative power, the ability to command creation from themselves, without reference to another power.
In scripture only the Father has creative power. Jesus compared forgiving sins and healing as being equal, so if He could heal He could also forgive sins. The apostles when sent out were given specific authority

"He called his twelve disciples to him and gave them authority to drive out evil spirits and to heal every disease and sickness."
Matt 10:1

Calling the Twelve to him, he sent them out two by two and gave them authority over evil spirits.
Mark 6:7

When Jesus had called the Twelve together, he gave them power and authority to drive out all demons and to cure diseases,
and he sent them out to preach the kingdom of God and to heal the sick.
Luke 9:1-2

The healing and authority of the 12 was specific to this time, and through acts each healing talked about was special.
And it was authority given not innate with being in the Kingdom.

It is therefore impossible to match the concept we are innately gods with us following Jesus. Rather Jesus can give us authority to do things through the power of the Lord, and that alone. And the power is exercised as an emphasis on the message and not innate to itself.

If church history teaches us anything as soon as people get into super-spiritual power everything goes wrong, because the healer becomes the focus rather than Jesus, and financial gain takes over and greed.

The apostles emphasis rather than us being gods, we are to think of others better than ourselves and serve their needs as well as our own.

Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit, but in humility consider others better than yourselves.
Each of you should look not only to your own interests, but also to the interests of others.
Phil 2:3-4

The strange reality about love is the trinity serves each other, and do not dominate. The principle of the Lord is service and need, seeing sadness and burdens a real issue that needs addressing but the true cause of our suffering is the sin in the world over which in Gods love we overcome.

It is the words and law that Jesus brings if it dwells in our hearts brings freedom to our lives. Ironically having authority to heal and drive out demons does not enhance or change this reality, which is why I am cautious when attempts are made to try and claim the miraculous is a badge of authority when Jesus declares it is love one to another which is reality of God at work among His people. God bless you

Yes - we don't understand that God called us "gods" and why He did so. The above demonstrates the problems and our understanding pretty well.

There are a number of assumptions made; and it is not surprising that they are made, but each show that we don't actually talked to Him like we should! Which also explains why we will also die like men - which God also said right after said we are gods!

Ps 82:5-7 They do not know nor do they understand; They walk about in darkness; All the foundations of the earth are shaken.
I said, “You are gods, And all of you are sons of the Most High.
“Nevertheless you will die like men And fall like any one of the princes.”

Take a close look at the verses above and let's go through them!!!

First - God said we don't understand!!
He does not lie, so we don't understand!! So all our trying to give a long understanding will not change that which God said!! WE don't understand!!

Next - God said we are gods, and even sons of the Most High!! Again God said that so it is true!! Now, and I believe I already stated this, "I don't feel like a god!!! Now you will like to find faults in others as opposed to actually considering the verses and asking the Lord about them and listening to His response! This failure to actually turn to Him and listen to Him explains a whole lot of this!!

It is explains a statement like "I am cautious when attempts are made to try and claim the miraculous is a badge of authority when Jesus declares it is love one to another which is reality of God at work among His people"

That is a statement of the person making it and not God - as can be seen in the "I am cautious"!! That is a statement of the persons belief and is not a statement that comes from actually hearing the Lord!! it is essentially the same as my statement "I don't feel like a god!!" Both indicate 'doubt in God', as opposed to 'faith in God'!! Faith in God comes from actually hearing Him talk to you personally!! (See Rom 10)

When He told His disciples to go out in pairs and heal the sick, that got the faith to go and do it; understanding that God had indeed given them the authority to do it!! Indeed, He also told them to tell people that the Kingdom of God had come near - giving them the realization to understand that the instructions were backed up by the power of the Kingdom of God. So they prayed by faith that people would get healed, that demons might get cast out, and it happened because they were sons of the Most High (gods) and had the authority to get the power of God that comes from His Kingdom (the angels that serve God)

Still, it didn't always happen.

Some places they were not welcomed!! People's pride (their feeling that they know all about God, as opposed to thinking they need to hear from God) gets in their way, and there are not a welcoming people, but rather a religious people, always leaning on their own understanding instead of actually seeking the voice of the Lord themselves!

And then they themselves also didn't listen by faith while they went. So they lacked instruction and also faith to believe. Which explains why His disciples had to ask Jesus afterward about what happened:

Mark 9: 28,29 When He came into the house, His disciples began questioning Him privately, “Why could we not drive it out?” And He said to them, “This kind cannot come out by anything but prayer.”

He reproves those He loves and teaches them!! We need that! That seeking Him and His voice is what helps us grow in understanding!! So those who don't actually seek Him and His voice, don't grow in understanding!!

They don't even understand that God is love - not us!! If they did their message would be about getting others to listen to Him - as opposed to thinking they are the loving one!!

So is not the worst statement made above this:

"If church history teaches us anything as soon as people get into super-spiritual power everything goes wrong, because the healer becomes the focus rather than Jesus, and financial gain takes over and greed.

Did we not even come to understand that "church history" doesn't teach us, but rather Jesus Christ does?? To say that clearly indicates a person is leaning on their own understanding instead of seeking the voice of Jesus Christ!!

And going out by two like Jesus personally them to do, did not "ruin them" instead it helped give them understanding and caused them to seek Jesus Christ personally again for more understanding!!

As a personal testimony for an example: The Lord asked me to work in a Christian healing ministry for five years. The amount of miracles I saw was incredible, but it was extremely educational, and even humbling!! And most importantly it caused me to turn to Jesus and listen to Him even more!! And should I conclude that is was not a loving thing to do?? People who don't listen to Him simply can not understand! Simply because understanding comes from listening to Him!!

Prov 2:6 For the LORD gives wisdom;
From His mouth come knowledge and understanding.

 

[Karl Peters]

You may ask why is "you are gods" so dangerous an idea?

God said it "that you are gods" - so then you think believing God is a "dangerous idea"!!!

You seriously need to seek Him and His voice by faith!!

Honestly this talk of being gods reminds me of Mormon theology.

But get real, we will never be a god.

So you think Jesus was perhaps a Mormon???

It was Jesus who talking to those religious zealots during His time in the flesh who said:

Jn 10:31 - 38 The Jews picked up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, “I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?” The Jews answered Him, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God.” Jesus answered them, “Has it not been written in your Law, ‘I SAID, YOU ARE GODS’? “If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), do you say of Him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’? “If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; but if I do them, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father.”

So in the little above we the Jews picking up stones to stone Jesus Christ because the felt Jesus Christ was blasphemy God - and that is like you, is it not? And it was then that Jesus pointed out what was "written" about what God said "‘I SAID, YOU ARE GODS’ - But look close - that was "to whom the word of God came" - which is to say "whom the Father sanctified"

Are you not acting exactly like those Jews then were acting???

Therefore it was also written to us what happen to Jesus, understanding that it would also happen when we hear from Him!!

Jesus tried to explain about the importance of hearing the Lord our God, and even about how the works that happen from hearing Him is a reason to believe.

Jn 10: 37,38 “If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; but if I do them, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father.”

As for me, I heard and hear Him speaking to me.

Jn 10:27 “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;

So I believe and follow Him and what He asks me to do. I don't do that perfectly, but I do what He tells me. And I have seen Him do hundreds of miracles, so I continue to believe in Him, and that the Father is in Him and He in the Father. I have also come to understand that His prayer for me is that I would be one with Him like He is one with the Father, making me a small god - according to what He has told me, though I don't feel like a god, even though I have prayed and seen and felt swelling go down quickly as a prayed, and many other miracles!! I have also seen religious people who proclaim they are loving people but show no signs of know the Lord who is the God who heals you!!

Why do they say things to indicate that healing someone is not a loving thing to do? Is it not a testimony that they don't know Him who is the healer and who is love?

BTW the following is wrong:

Being one with God's will and purpose, being able to commune with Him is our destiny.

It is not our "destiny" to be able to commune with Him!!!!!

It is to be our current status - not our "destiny"!!!!!!!

Is this not where you are wrong???

But the righteousness [fn]based on faith speaks as follows: “DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, ‘WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?’ (that is, to bring Christ down), ...

But what does it say? “THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,

that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

Jesus Christ is alive - now!!! We can talk to Him now!! Yeah, after we die like men, we are going to be with Him in heaven, but it is not our "destiny to commune with Him!!! That is to happen now!!!

Have I not been telling you over and over and over that you need to seek Him and listen to Him!! STOP saying in your heart that He is either dead or in a far off place called heaven. The Word of God we preach is in you so you can commune with Him now!! That is for now!! He is only your Lord now if you get your instructions from Him now!!

 

[7thMoon]

Am I the only one who know YHWH was talking to the angels in the psalm?

 

[Karl Peters]

Am I the only one who know YHWH was talking to the angels in the psalm?

Do you really think that God writes to angels???? Are they not all spirits?? Do you think they need to read with physical eyes - they don't even have physical eyes so they? Can they not hear with their spiritual ears, being spirits all ready?

Who told you that God needed to have physical books written with ink on physical paper in order to talk to angels or even fallen angels???

The sacred writings, our Bibles, are written to a people who say "Let not God speak to us" and who told Moses "“Speak to us yourself and we will listen" - Therefore they were unwilling to listen to God but said they would pay attention to Moses and what He heard from God! So Moses had what he had to say to them from God written down to help them remember, even to this day, what he heard from God. And so too the prophets after him.

The Psalms and indeed all of the Bible was written to rebellious men!! It is not that the angels and even Satan, does know about the writings, but they can hear with their spiritual ears, because they are spirits!!

And if it was indeed written to the angels, why then do we need to read the Bible - if we think that it was not to us?

So what kind of angel would tell us that the Bible is not written to us? How is your discernment of spirits?

 

[WalkInLight]

Yes - we don't understand that God called us "gods" and why He did so. The above demonstrates the problems and our understanding pretty well.

There are a number of assumptions made; and it is not surprising that they are made, but each show that we don't actually talked to Him like we should! Which also explains why we will also die like men - which God also said right after said we are gods!

Ps 82:5-7 They do not know nor do they understand; They walk about in darkness; All the foundations of the earth are shaken.
I said, “You are gods, And all of you are sons of the Most High.
“Nevertheless you will die like men And fall like any one of the princes.”

Take a close look at the verses above and let's go through them!!!

First - God said we don't understand!!
He does not lie, so we don't understand!! So all our trying to give a long understanding will not change that which God said!! WE don't understand!!

Next - God said we are gods, and even sons of the Most High!! Again God said that so it is true!! Now, and I believe I already stated this, "I don't feel like a god!!! Now you will like to find faults in others as opposed to actually considering the verses and asking the Lord about them and listening to His response! This failure to actually turn to Him and listen to Him explains a whole lot of this!!

It is explains a statement like "I am cautious when attempts are made to try and claim the miraculous is a badge of authority when Jesus declares it is love one to another which is reality of God at work among His people"

That is a statement of the person making it and not God - as can be seen in the "I am cautious"!! That is a statement of the persons belief and is not a statement that comes from actually hearing the Lord!! it is essentially the same as my statement "I don't feel like a god!!" Both indicate 'doubt in God', as opposed to 'faith in God'!! Faith in God comes from actually hearing Him talk to you personally!! (See Rom 10)

When He told His disciples to go out in pairs and heal the sick, that got the faith to go and do it; understanding that God had indeed given them the authority to do it!! Indeed, He also told them to tell people that the Kingdom of God had come near - giving them the realization to understand that the instructions were backed up by the power of the Kingdom of God. So they prayed by faith that people would get healed, that demons might get cast out, and it happened because they were sons of the Most High (gods) and had the authority to get the power of God that comes from His Kingdom (the angels that serve God)

Still, it didn't always happen.

Some places they were not welcomed!! People's pride (their feeling that they know all about God, as opposed to thinking they need to hear from God) gets in their way, and there are not a welcoming people, but rather a religious people, always leaning on their own understanding instead of actually seeking the voice of the Lord themselves!

And then they themselves also didn't listen by faith while they went. So they lacked instruction and also faith to believe. Which explains why His disciples had to ask Jesus afterward about what happened:

Mark 9: 28,29 When He came into the house, His disciples began questioning Him privately, “Why could we not drive it out?” And He said to them, “This kind cannot come out by anything but prayer.”

He reproves those He loves and teaches them!! We need that! That seeking Him and His voice is what helps us grow in understanding!! So those who don't actually seek Him and His voice, don't grow in understanding!!

They don't even understand that God is love - not us!! If they did their message would be about getting others to listen to Him - as opposed to thinking they are the loving one!!

So is not the worst statement made above this:

"If church history teaches us anything as soon as people get into super-spiritual power everything goes wrong, because the healer becomes the focus rather than Jesus, and financial gain takes over and greed.

Did we not even come to understand that "church history" doesn't teach us, but rather Jesus Christ does?? To say that clearly indicates a person is leaning on their own understanding instead of seeking the voice of Jesus Christ!!

And going out by two like Jesus personally them to do, did not "ruin them" instead it helped give them understanding and caused them to seek Jesus Christ personally again for more understanding!!

As a personal testimony for an example: The Lord asked me to work in a Christian healing ministry for five years. The amount of miracles I saw was incredible, but it was extremely educational, and even humbling!! And most importantly it caused me to turn to Jesus and listen to Him even more!! And should I conclude that is was not a loving thing to do?? People who don't listen to Him simply can not understand! Simply because understanding comes from listening to Him!!

Prov 2:6 For the LORD gives wisdom;
From His mouth come knowledge and understanding.

I am happy that you feel you are a god.

How does this make you different to me, a sanctified believer?
The reason there is hope for sinners, is because we need forgiveness and purification and our lives transformed, which is a miracle when it happens. Jesus said

I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent. Luke 15:7

Repentance and following Jesus in his behaviour towards others is the Kingdom on God on earth.
In the Lords prayer it is focused upon Gods will on earth, not miraculous power demonstrated.

Unfortunately people go to doctors to get their physical health needs resolved, not their life and spiritual needs met.
To emphasise the miraculous above life transformation is to say doctors matter more than love and communion with the Lord.

This particular discussion I came across in 1976, when I was in need of love and communion not physical healing.
To this day nothing has changed, except the desperation of believers who want affirmation of their spirituality through the miraculous rather than love transforming their hearts and minds to conform to the likeness of Jesus.

I spent 2 years debating with a church elder about this very point, but a hard heart who has never admitted their need and let the cross and Jesus in, has no reference point. The words they used was victorian tea parties, being polite and gentle.. They had no concept of brokenness, total vulnerability and a sense of hopelessness, filled with thankfulness for Jesus and the cross, His cleansing and healing, and the beginning anew life with Him. I had to give everything up, to gain that which I cannot lose. And my life has not been the same since.

My kids say they cannot believe I come from such a dysfunctional family and am close to being normal, at least consistently loving and supportive, but that is the power of Jesus and His word through the Holy Spirit. Such a building of life is like a house upon a rock, the storms come and blow but the house does not fall down. These emotional and spiritual realities last a life time, and in the sense we are like Jesus, we are eternal in His Kingdom. God bless you

 

[Johann]

That is why it was written "he called them gods, to whom the word of God came"

you are gods

Jesus used a quote from Ps. 82:6 ). It used elohim to refer to human judges. These judges (though wicked) are called "sons of the Most High."

These Jews were attacking Jesus because although He was a man He claimed to be: (1) the Son of God and (2) one with God. Yet other men (cf. Exod. 4:16; 7:1; 22:8,9; Ps. 82:6; 138:1) were called "gods."

Jesus' rabbinical argument seems to follow this line: the Scriptures are true, men are called elohim, therefore, why do you call Me a blasphemer for asserting that I am the Son of God? The term Elohim is PLURAL in Hebrew but translated SINGULAR and used a SINGULAR VERB when referring to the OT Deity. This may be a typical Johannine word play: (1) a term that has two connotations and (2) a Greek question that expects a "yes" answer.

----------------------------------
82:5-8 This strophe cannot refer to humans but must refer to angels.

1. "all the foundations of the earth are shaken"

2. You are gods (i.e., elohim)

3. sons of the Most High

4. you will die like men

5. fall like one of the princes ("princes" used of national angels in Dan. 10:5,20; but humans in Isa. 3:13-14)

6. judge the earth. . .possess all the nations



82:5 Those addressed by the Psalm are characterized as

1. they do not know

2. they do not understand

3. they walk in darkness

These, like Ps. 82:2-4, can refer to Israelis. This is why some commentators take "elohim" in Ps. 82:1b and 6a to refer to human judges (cf. Exod. 21:6; 22:8-9). I think the evidence of the Psalm as a whole points to national angels.

If Ps. 82:2-4 shows YHWH speaking, who is speaking in Ps. 82:5-7? It must be the psalmist himself as the first words of Ps. 82:6, 7, and 8 as a whole, seem to demand. However, it must be admitted that they could also reflect the words of YHWH Himself (UBS Handbook, p. 730).

-"They walk about in darkness" The verb "walk about" (BDB 229, KB 246, Hithpael imperfect) denotes lifestyle action.

The "darkness" is a metaphor for evil or rejection of God's revelation. The concept is expressed in several idioms.

1. ways of darkness - Pro. 2:13; 4:19; Isa. 9:2; 50:10; John 3:19-20

2. works of darkness - Job 24:13-17; Jer. 23:12

3. grope in darkness - Deut. 28:29; Job 5:14; 12:25; Isa. 59:9-10

4. call light darkness - Job 17:12; Isa. 5:20

Spiritual, intentional blindness is a terrible thing. Both angels and humans purposefully choose not to see (cf. Isa. 24:21)! They put out their own spiritual eyes!
3) "I said, ye are gods?" (hoti ego eipa theoi este) "That I said, you all are gods?" alluding to Psa_82:6; Rom_13:1. The term "gods" is used, not to refer to the one true God, or to idol gods, but to the appointed leaders of the Jewish people. The Psalms are therefore referred to in a very general sense as the law.

I said, ye are gods? which is spoken to civil magistrates, so called, because of their authority and power; and because they do, in some sort, represent the divine majesty, in the government of nations and kingdoms.

Many of the Jewish writers, by "gods", understand "the angels". The Targum paraphrases the words thus:


"I said ye are accounted as angels, as the angels on high, all of you;''
and to this sense some of their commentators interpret it.

Jarchi's gloss is, ye are gods; that is, angels; for when I gave the law to you, it was on this account, that the angel of death might not any more rule over you:

the note of Aben Ezra is, "and the children of the Most High": as angels; and the sense is, your soul is as the soul of angels:

hence the (x) Jew charges Christ with seeking refuge in words, that will not profit, or be any help to him, when he cites these words, showing that magistrates are called gods, when the sense is only, that they are like to the angels in respect of their souls: but let it be observed, that it is not said, "ye are as gods", as in Gen_3:5, but "ye are gods"; not like unto them only, but are in some sense gods; and besides, to say that they are like to angels, with respect to their souls, which come from above, is to say no more of the judges of the earth, than what may be said of every man: to which may be added, that this objector himself owns, that judges are called אלהים, "gods", as in Exo_22:9; the cause of both parties shall come before אלהים, "the judges"; and that even the word is used in this sense in this very psalm, from whence these words are cited, Psa_82:1, "he judgeth among" אלהים, "the gods"; and both Kimchi and Ben Melech interpret this text itself in the same way, and observe, that judges are called gods, when they judge truly and aright: all which is sufficient to justify our Lord in the citation of this passage, and the use he makes of it.
Gill.

J.

 

[Johann]

So I believe and follow Him and what He asks me to do. I don't do that perfectly, but I do what He tells me. And I have seen Him do hundreds of miracles, so I continue to believe in Him, and that the Father is in Him and He in the Father. I have also come to understand that His prayer for me is that I would be one with Him like He is one with the Father, making me a small god - according to what He has told me, though I don't feel like a god, even though I have prayed and seen and felt swelling go down quickly as a prayed, and many other miracles!! I have also seen religious people who proclaim they are loving people but show no signs of know the Lord who is the God who heals you!!

Cheers-I'm out of here-
J.