I'm not talking about a person who slips up once in a while, but one who sins habitually and still says that he loves God. Is this possible? " If a man loves Me he will keep My commandments ".
Can A Man Love God And Not Obey Him ?
- Thread starter Hollyrock
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Can someone actually love God, even though they claim to, if they deny His word? According to His word they cant.
Jesus says when one does what He teaches He is in them and they in Him. One cant say Jesus is the truth and then dispute that which He, the truth, speaks as truth.
:)
Jesus says when one does what He teaches He is in them and they in Him. One cant say Jesus is the truth and then dispute that which He, the truth, speaks as truth.
:)
So, Paul didn't love God?
"We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing.
Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it. So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God's law; but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God--through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin." - Paul. Romans 7.
"We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing.
Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it. So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God's law; but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God--through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin." - Paul. Romans 7.
Yes Paul loved God, as
Thanks be to God--through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin."
Thanks be to God--through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin."
Exactly. Paul loved God very much.
Yet Paul, by his on admission was repeatedly disobedient unto God.
This even after his miraculous conversion, the Holy Spirit inside of him, and the participation in and witnessing of multiple miracles from God.
So, according to the standards put forth here by some, his disobedience proved his lack of love. Or was it that his lack of love that caused his disobedience? :)
.
Yet Paul, by his on admission was repeatedly disobedient unto God.
This even after his miraculous conversion, the Holy Spirit inside of him, and the participation in and witnessing of multiple miracles from God.
So, according to the standards put forth here by some, his disobedience proved his lack of love. Or was it that his lack of love that caused his disobedience? :)
.
Hi Foreigner,
I would say "the sinful nature"! There is still a war between the desires of the flesh and the way of the Spirit.
Galatians 5 sums it up for me.
What do you think?
I would say "the sinful nature"! There is still a war between the desires of the flesh and the way of the Spirit.
Galatians 5 sums it up for me.
What do you think?
God first loved us and He shed His love abroad in our hearts so that our love will deepen for Him and man. The closer we walk with God, the more we grow to love Him and people.
-- I agree on the struggle. That struggle and the coming down on the failing end of that struggle is what I am speaking of.
That message is for those that say things like "Exactly...obedience proves love!! And love makes one obedient" with the strong implication that if there is ongoing disobedience than there is not really love. This ignores the struggles Christians ensure as they grow into God.
Paul was a perfect example.
- I agree and have said nothing different.
Having habitual sin in your life isn't the main issue. It is whether you are doing your best - with the Holy Spirit's help - to struggle against it and remove it.
If you are habitually committing the sin and not trying to overcome it, then yes, you have a problem.
That problem is compounded for the sinner by the fact that - if they do not work to overcome that sin - God sometimes leaves them to their sin.
And when that happens, callousness to that sin (and to God) take hold.
.
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
I do not think that you can love God, while you are sinning at the moment. But you can repent by turning back towards Him.
Hi HollyRock,
What determines when disobedience is "habitual"?
Is it 7x70?
How often throughout your years as a Christian have you committed the same wrong? Often enough to be "habitual"?
Another example is the high rates of divorce and subsequent marriage to another partner, as is common in many affluent societies (even amongst Christians). But, to divorce and marry another is adultery (Mark 10:11,12). As such a marriage is adultery, is this then "habitual"?
Hello haz.I am talking about a person who constantly disobey's God's Word and has no real relationship with Him.I believe that 70x7 is referring to forgiving a person as many times as is neccessary but that's not what I'm talking about here. I'm talking about a deceived person who lives his life in sin (if it's constant it's habitual) but they don't see that they are doing anything wrong or even need to repent...after all, they love God or do they ?
If you have the Holy Spirit you will be moved by the Holy Spirit to put to death the deeds of the flesh and walk after the Spirit.
Jesus' obedience to His Father was from a heart of love, not legalism. And this same Jesus (Spirit of Christ) should be living in us.
2Co 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
Have you experienced the obedience through the Spirit that results in purification of your soul? This is fruit unto God.
1Pe_1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
Axehead
Jesus' obedience to His Father was from a heart of love, not legalism. And this same Jesus (Spirit of Christ) should be living in us.
2Co 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
Have you experienced the obedience through the Spirit that results in purification of your soul? This is fruit unto God.
1Pe_1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
Axehead
Hi HollyRock,
Habitual means done constantly, regularly. I guess that would describe most of the behavior we see even amongst ourselves. One example someone gave me was how they regularly snap at their children. And whilst they regret it they admit they still regularly do it. This is habitual.
And "repent" is to regret what you have done and turn away from doing it again. Unfortunately we see many Christians apparently repenting over and over for the same offence. This is habitual and shows that they never repented to begin with. I think many Christians don't understand what repentance is about.
And then that other example I offered about Christians who dovorce and then marry another (adultery, Mark 10:11,12), such are in a lifestyle of adultery. Yet they're simialr to that example of the parent who always snaps at their children, regrets it later, but then snaps at them again and again.
I guess we really need to be careful of judging people based on their lifestyle. And does not scripture tells us not to judge lest we be judged? I guess thats why Jesus said to forgive 7x70. And God forgives this way too.
And when Christians do wrong they won't profit by it. God chastises us. And as we're all at different stages of our Christian walk why should a more mature Christian be judging a young Christian on their weaker lifestyle? God is better able than us to work in each of our lives, whatever stage we're at, to build us up. Leave it up to Him instead.
His commandments to us are to believe on Jesus and love one another (1John 3:23). Christians obey, believing on Jesus and loving one another. And just as God loved us, forgiving us, we likewise forgive 7x70 instead of judging others as unsaved if their lifestyle doesn't match up to the standards we perceive they should be.
I have seen many from a legalistic mindset often judge others as unsaved based on lifestyle. Yet these same professing Christians demonstrate a dubious lifestyle themselves. Just like scripture says, you who judge you do the same thyings yourself.
IMHO
As we are all in this flesh we are not immune to sin. I have a habitual sin that has become a thorn in the thigh. It's an obsession that through years of prayers that I failed to get rid of. Many times I doubted my salvation and if one day when I face the judgement seat Jesus would tell me to " go away cause I never knew you "
I shared my concern with my bro in Christ and he said that : as long as if I tried my best, continue to struggle and know that you hated that sin but not abusing the grace from God, the almighty would understand. Deliverance from an entrenched sin sometimes take a lifetime and possibly people carry it into their graves. As we walk each day and become more Christ-like, non of us could ever become Christ !
That being said, most God loving and fearing Christians (if not all) may have skeletons in their closets, being shackled by the flesh if not from the demonic spirits that are coercing many Christians' minds, would eventually face condemnation in the end. As someone stated above, Paul would faced condemnation if that was the case.
My answer is yes, we can still love God and not obey him, obedience as in involuntary (addictions). How I know? because many times I shed tears and feel disgusted by my ongoing sins during my praise & worshiping in His service knowing that HE is well aware of my pain and helplessness of my addiction to a particular sin and I felt his presence of forgiveness each time I walked out from his temple. I can only pray, Lord, not my strength but yours and help me to overcome next time Amen.
I shared my concern with my bro in Christ and he said that : as long as if I tried my best, continue to struggle and know that you hated that sin but not abusing the grace from God, the almighty would understand. Deliverance from an entrenched sin sometimes take a lifetime and possibly people carry it into their graves. As we walk each day and become more Christ-like, non of us could ever become Christ !
That being said, most God loving and fearing Christians (if not all) may have skeletons in their closets, being shackled by the flesh if not from the demonic spirits that are coercing many Christians' minds, would eventually face condemnation in the end. As someone stated above, Paul would faced condemnation if that was the case.
My answer is yes, we can still love God and not obey him, obedience as in involuntary (addictions). How I know? because many times I shed tears and feel disgusted by my ongoing sins during my praise & worshiping in His service knowing that HE is well aware of my pain and helplessness of my addiction to a particular sin and I felt his presence of forgiveness each time I walked out from his temple. I can only pray, Lord, not my strength but yours and help me to overcome next time Amen.
Hi HollyRock,
This answers your question, does it not? If someone has no real relationship with God, then they cannot love Him, can they? And then lacking relationship, they continue in their sin as all the lost do.
Love in Christ,
Mark
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
It is very sad that millions of people think they are headed for Heaven no matter what kind of life they live... I totally agree with what you said.
Perhaps, not exactly.
Consider, that you will be obedient to me if i come to your home and put a gun to your temple and tell you to create for me a "sammach".
(you can get more done with a gun and a smile then with a smile alone).
so, a better way to think of it is,........."Sacrifice" proves love.
Think of it like this.........Christ was obedient to the will of his Father, but it was his Sacrifice that saves a soul.
K
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