Relationship Between Israel and the Church

[Trekson]

Hi Folks, This is my first official post and I'm kinda testing the waters here. There are so many topics to read and the replies as well that I thought I would start new posts on what might be already existing threads, or not, I haven't read everything and probably won't. Much of what I have to share might at times be lengthy but I believe these are serious issues and need serious study. Most "discussions" on a variety of scriptural topics can't be adequately discussed with just a line or two. With that said and my toe already wet, let me just jump in with this one.

Sometimes the identities of the church and Israel get misconstrued which can lead to false conclusions based on wrongful assumptions. There are two Israels in scripture. There is of course the physical nation of Israel and there is a spiritual Israel which is founded in faith and with the Abramic covenant. Gentile Christian believers, upon salvation, become a part of this spiritual Israel. God made several covenants with the nation of Israel. Some, the church inherits by faith, others remain just for the nation of Israel.

All the spiritual promises God made to Israel were fulfilled at Christ’s first coming. ( ex. Acts 2:17-21 & Joel 2:28-32 “And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: 18And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: 19And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: 20The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come: 21And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.)
We inherit these promises the same way Abraham did in Gen. 15:6 through our faith and belief in our Redeemer and upon the righteousness of Christ we receive by faith at salvation. This is also where our “adoption” fits in. Rom. 8:15-17 - “For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.”

　
Many people see the church becoming Israel in Romans 11 but I contend the opposite is true. This shows the separation of the two and reveals the destiny of the physical nation of Israel that will once again be based on their future understanding and utilizing the same faith that Abraham exhibited. Let’s look closer at Rom. 11.
There are two groups shown here, the wild olive shoots that are grafted into the cultivated tree (aka, the church) and the natural branches (Israel). The church will always be grafts. We will never, by osmosis, become natural branches but we receive all our rights via adoption as mentioned above.
Because of disobedience and lack of faith the natural branches were cut off so that we could be grafted in because of our faith and obedience. When the fullness of the Gentiles comes in, this grafting process will cease (vs. 25 “For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.”) and Christ will restore the natural branches to their rightful place (vs.24 “For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?”)

The word “all” in (vs.26 “And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:”)
doesn’t necessarily mean the whole nation, but that at some point, all that will be left of Israel that enters into the millennium will be saved. Where will this group come from? I believe they will be the 144,000 (all born again national Israelites) and the rest of the woman (believing Israel) who go into hiding for 3 ½ yrs., Rev. 12:14 - “The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the desert, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent’s reach.”

Where will they come from? I believe that the Holy Spirit will open the eyes of His chosen at the abomination of desolation in the midst of the 70[sup]th[/sup] week.: Zech. 12:10 - “And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.”

While we enter into the tree by faith as Abraham, that only entitles us to the spiritual promises, which are more than enough. However, the land promises given to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and further explained in the latter chapters of Ezekial, remain for the saved, human Israeli remnant who undergo the sheep and goat judgment of Matt. 25 that enters the millennium, (as well as some Gentile remnants). Some of the church will be ruling and reigning with Christ but I believe heaven will be just a thought away and we will travel back and forth quite frequently. The earth is not the home of the church, our home is in heaven until the NJ arrives.
I do not believe in the typical dispensationalism of pre-tribbers, however, in this one instance, the land inheritance of the nation of Israel, I do see a dispensation. Dispensationalists, as a rule, see a permanent separation between the church and Israel. I do not. I believe God’s plan is for an ultimate total unity between both parties and this is where I believe the future wedding has greater meaning.

 

[shilohsfoal]

You seem to seperate the church and Israel as though it was two seperate things.
Try to remember where the church began and who the members were.
Israel

Just to let you know .The book of revelation is written so that an Israelite can undserstand.
Almost everything about the beast can be found in a 5th grade Israelites history book.
Any Israelite could understand fully about the beast if they only believed in Christ and read the book of revelation.
When those Israelites are chosen .they will be given the revelation of Jesus Christ,Which God gave to him to show them the things that must shortly come to pass.

 

[Trekson]

I believe there are two identities to Israel, spiritual and national. For now, whether gentile or jew we are all one new man,a spiritual Israelite but at the end of the age, in my opinion, God will set aside a remnant of national jewish believers (the 144,000 and other remnants) to physically dwell in Israel and partially re-populate the earth during the millennium.

 

[veteran]

Sometimes the identities of the church and Israel get misconstrued which can lead to false conclusions based on wrongful assumptions. There are two Israels in scripture. There is of course the physical nation of Israel and there is a spiritual Israel which is founded in faith and with the Abramic covenant. Gentile Christian believers, upon salvation, become a part of this spiritual Israel. God made several covenants with the nation of Israel. Some, the church inherits by faith, others remain just for the nation of Israel.

Saying the identities of the Church and Israel get misconstrued assumes one knows the truth about both. I don't think you know the truth of it just yet, mainly because of your heeding that Dispensationalist thinking of separation between a physical or 'national' Israel and Christ's Church.

There's been enough archeaological history discovered long ago to prove that the majority of the ten tribes of Israel migrated to the western nations where Christ sent The Gospel, and it took root and produced much fruit. In Christ's parable of the husbandmen this is what He was showing also, since the vineyard symbol He referred to was about the "house of Israel" (ten tribes) per Isaiah 5:7. That was a prophecy in parable form about the ten tribes being established in The Gospel, as the "nation" which Christ mentioned He would take away from the Jews who refused Him (Matt.21).

Thus the ten tribes of Israel, along with believing Jews there, became His Church in The Gospel, and the believing Gentiles in those western lands became joined with them. Hence as both 'national' Israel of the seed, and spiritual Israel for believing Gentiles joined with them, forming the "commonwealth of Israel" that Paul preached.

But of course, that idea just doesn't fit the majority of the Jews which still refuse The Gospel, along with the state of Israel in the middleast, so Dispensationalists choose to just throw all that out, which means refusing a whole lot of Bible Scripture about it also.

All the spiritual promises God made to Israel were fulfilled at Christ’s first coming. ( ex. Acts 2:17-21 & Joel 2:28-32 “And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: 18And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: 19And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: 20The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come: 21And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.)
We inherit these promises the same way Abraham did in Gen. 15:6 through our faith and belief in our Redeemer and upon the righteousness of Christ we receive by faith at salvation. This is also where our “adoption” fits in. Rom. 8:15-17 - “For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.”

God has much more than that to say about His promises to Israel involving His Church joined with believing Gentiles. His promises which you call 'spiritual' actually involve actual things of substance. Afterall, Christ's Salvation is not just some 'spiritual' idea. It has real substance involving a real Kingdom on earth.

One of God's promises to Abraham involving His Salvation Plan is about actual land inheritance. The 12 tribes of Israel have yet today to receive that promise of the land in inheritance. Instead, the New World Order hosts are giving those lands of Israel's eventual inheritance away to others. And the unbelieving Jews, of which include many foreigners not even of the seed of Israel, have usurped part of those lands in the middleast also. Thus you should not speak of God's promises to Israel having already been fulfilled today, since that is to show Biblical ignorance. Ezekiel 37 about God's promise to join the two sticks of Ephraim (ten tribes) and Judah (Jews) back together under Christ in the original lands of promise, with David as their king, is a Scripture that cannot just be passed over with some theological whim.

Many people see the church becoming Israel in Romans 11 but I contend the opposite is true. This shows the separation of the two and reveals the destiny of the physical nation of Israel that will once again be based on their future understanding and utilizing the same faith that Abraham exhibited. Let’s look closer at Rom. 11.

That's starting to sound like the false Dispensationalist view of Romans 11, trying to split the elect remnant seed of Israel apart from Christ's Church, wrongly supposing Christ's Church involves only Gentile believers. Per Rom.11, believing Gentiles are graffed onto the same ROOT that the elect remnant of Israel are graffed on. They both together represent one group, i.e., Christ's Church. The only other group mentioned there by Paul is the Israel "in part" which God blinded that he spoike of. They represent the majority of the Jews which still refuse Christ Jesus today, i.e., the old "house of Judah" per OT prophecy. Study Romans 11 without Dispensationalist assumptions, and you'll easily see this.

There are two groups shown here, the wild olive shoots that are grafted into the cultivated tree (aka, the church) and the natural branches (Israel). The church will always be grafts. We will never, by osmosis, become natural branches but we receive all our rights via adoption as mentioned above.
Because of disobedience and lack of faith the natural branches were cut off so that we could be grafted in because of our faith and obedience. When the fullness of the Gentiles comes in, this grafting process will cease (vs. 25 “For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.”) and Christ will restore the natural branches to their rightful place (vs.24 “For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?”)

You have wrongly misrepresented the idea of the olive tree and branches Paul described. Paul never implied the elect remnant of the seed of Israel were a separate group cut off from Christ. They are... His Church, and the believing Gentiles are graffed on with them, their both together forming one Body in Christ Jesus. That was even Old Testament prophecy per the Book of Isaiah. Or did you miss how Paul declared an elect remnant of believers of the seed of Israel in the Rom.11:1-5 verses?

So how does one categorize that seed of Israel that is the election according to grace per Rom.11:1-5? Are they not still 'national Israel'?? Yes, they are, but their heritage as Israel was lost long ago. They lost their own identity as Israelites, and have become 'as' Gentiles, living among Gentiles. But per Amos 9, God showed He has not lost any of the ten tribes of Israel, and that He will gather them as corn through a sieve, not the least grain falling to the ground.

The word “all” in (vs.26 “And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:”)
doesn’t necessarily mean the whole nation, but that at some point, all that will be left of Israel that enters into the millennium will be saved. Where will this group come from? I believe they will be the 144,000 (all born again national Israelites) and the rest of the woman (believing Israel) who go into hiding for 3 ½ yrs., Rev. 12:14 - “The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the desert, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent’s reach.”

Not a valid position per Scripture. Reason is, the 144,000 of Rev.7 represent 'sealed' Israelites in prep for the great tribulation. They are sealed with God's seal as HIS servants. They represent His election of the seed of Israel for the last days when the false messiah comes. Starting at Rev.7:9, the "great multitude" represent Gentile believers that are sealed to go through the great tribulation. Both together... represent Christ's Church for the last days.

All Israel will be saved for Christ's Millennium reign, but not all of them will be of the Zadok priests allowed to approach Christ at His table (Ezek.44). Many of them will be among the spiritually dead for having wrongly bowed to false messiah, which is going to inlcude many Gentile believers who will fall away also.

The fleeing into the wilderness for 3.5 years is a spiritual fleeing, especially since what they flee is concerning what comes out of the dragon's mouth as written there, which represents the Rev.9 stinging of lies to cause spiritual deception to false messiah during the tribulation (Rev.12). It is NOT about a literal fleeing into the wilderness.

Where will they come from? I believe that the Holy Spirit will open the eyes of His chosen at the abomination of desolation in the midst of the 70[sup]th[/sup] week.: Zech. 12:10 - “And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.”

The elect remnant of the seed of Israel already mostly have their spiritual eyes open today involving the coming false messiah. Many are 'sealed' with God's seal already, as many as the stars of the sky and sands of the sea, which God promised Israel would become.

The Zech.12 event you're quoting is for AFTER... Christ has returned and been revealed to unbelieving Israel. It is unbelieving Israel, the Israel "in part" which Paul spoke of past Rom.11:21, i.e., unbelieving Jews mostly. That is when those will mourn for Christ Jesus once He reveals Himself to them at His second coming. Thus it's wrong to push that Zech.12 Scripture backwards into tribulation timing. Unbelieving Israel will appear in shame because of being fooled into bowing to the false messiah. That's why they will mourn for Jesus in that future time after His return, and after He has destroyed the false messiah's fake reign.

While we enter into the tree by faith as Abraham, that only entitles us to the spiritual promises, which are more than enough. However, the land promises given to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and further explained in the latter chapters of Ezekial, remain for the saved, human Israeli remnant who undergo the sheep and goat judgment of Matt. 25 that enters the millennium, (as well as some Gentile remnants). Some of the church will be ruling and reigning with Christ but I believe heaven will be just a thought away and we will travel back and forth quite frequently. The earth is not the home of the church, our home is in heaven until the NJ arrives.

Christ's Church today = the believing seed of Israel, and beleiving Gentiles graffed in with them. God's promises to the seed of Israel are inherited by both as one Body in Christ Jesus. Thusly, it is just as befitting for Israelite believers today to call theirself 'national Israel' as much as Christ's Church. Paul used the label of the "commonwealth of Israel" to represent that concept, which very much involves God's promises to the seed of Israel along with believing Gentiles from all nations.

Therefore, the idea of 'spiritual promises' is really an oxymoron term. If believing Gentiles do not inherit the Real Promises God gave to the seed of Israel, then it is not God's Salvation through His Son. We shall inherit with Abraham, and be counted as the 'seed' along with the actual 'seed' of Israel that believe on Christ Jesus. We as believing Gentiles are no longer strangers from the covenants of promise from God to His Israel.

And as written, we shall rule on the earth with Christ (Rev.5:10), that is, if we wait for Him. The heavenly is going to be revealed here, on earth. Our abodes will be in the Millennium Sanctuary of Ezekiel 40 through 47, on earth, where Jerusalem is today.

I do not believe in the typical dispensationalism of pre-tribbers, however, in this one instance, the land inheritance of the nation of Israel, I do see a dispensation. Dispensationalists, as a rule, see a permanent separation between the church and Israel. I do not. I believe God’s plan is for an ultimate total unity between both parties and this is where I believe the future wedding has greater meaning.

I was going to say; most of what you've pretty much said here has been from the old Dispensationalist theology of men. I too believe that Christ's future Kingdom on earth will involve all believers joined as one Body, and not separately. But I speak of His election which reign with Him, and not about those who fall away.

 

[Trekson]

Heaven is the home for the church and the earthly millennium will be the home for those who come out of the 70th week alive and are allowed to enter in via the sheep and goat judgments of Matt. 25. Yes, some of us will rule and reign on earth, but it will be an extreme minority of believers as I believe the church throughout the ages will vastly out number the 70th week survivors. Rev. 7:9 says a great multitude, no one could number. That certainly won't be the case of millennial beginners.

Veteran, Would you be kind enough to tell me how to use the quote boxes properly as you do?

 

[Episkopos]

There is Israel according to the flesh...and the church of the risen Christ who are the Israel of God according to the Spirit. Since the new covenant is made to Israel and Israel is the Bride of Christ, those who deny that the true church is spiritual Israel have put themselves out of the new covenant altogether.

 

[veteran]

Heaven is the home for the church and the earthly millennium will be the home for those who come out of the 70th week alive and are allowed to enter in via the sheep and goat judgments of Matt. 25. Yes, some of us will rule and reign on earth, but it will be an extreme minority of believers as I believe the church throughout the ages will vastly out number the 70th week survivors. Rev. 7:9 says a great multitude, no one could number. That certainly won't be the case of millennial beginners.

Study Isaiah 25. That's where Apostle Paul was pulling from about all on earth at Christ's coming being 'changed' at the "twinkling of an eye" and the idea of death swallowed up victory. It's applied to all nations on earth in Isaiah 25. After Christ's return, the concept of flesh death will be over, only the concept of the "second death" remaining, which is the casting of one's spiritual body with soul into the "lake of fire" at the end of Christ's future "thousand years" reign on earth.

The "mansions" of John 14, they're on earth, for the meaning is abodes per the Greek. They're in the Millennium sanctuary and oblation layout per the Book of Ezekiel.

The "camp of the saints" per Rev.20 is upon the breadth of the earth as written there. That's the Millennium layout of the holy city per Ezekiel 40-47. The nations will be outside it, and will be subject to judgment throughout Christ's thousand years reign, also shown in Rev.20 and Ezekiel 44 and Revelation 22:14-15. Ezekiel 47 describes the waters of the river of life on earth in the middleast, emitting from God's House on earth there, along with the tree of life on it's borders.

The reason many brethren have failed to grasp that part is because of how many are denied study in the Old Testament Books of God's prophets. Many are even wrongly taught all the OT is past history. It's not. Paul referenced the OT prophets a lot when preaching to Gentiles, regarding both what has been fulfilled, and what is still yet to come. Peter commanded us to be mindful of the words of the prophets. They are part of the foundation of Eph.2 and should never be left out like many do.

The visions of Rev.21 & 22 that John was shown is the same kind of vision that Ezekiel was shown starting at Ezekiel 40 to the end of the Book of Ezekiel. The difference is, Ezekiel was shown the holy city on earth in the middleast with a Millennium sanctuary called God's House. When Jesus mentioned in His Father's "house" are many "mansions", the Millennium layout in Ezekiel is what He was talking about.

The details are in the OT prophets, not in the NT Scripture. Because many won't go back and study, they evolve all sorts of erroneous ideas from reading just the Rev.21-22 layout by itself. The Rev.21 & 22 chapters actually combine the time of Christ's thousand years and after the "lake of fire" event. No sactuary or temple after the lake of fire event, which is pointing to the new heavens and a new earth time. Rev.21-22 suggests the holy city is not upon the earth until the new heavens and a new earth timing, but the actual answer is that Ezekiel 40-47 is the rest of the detail, showing the holy city will be established during the Millennium timing.

Because of the word "camp" is used in Rev.20:9 for the "camp of the saints", many think that means some temporary encampment on earth with the saints going back and forth from earth to Heaven during the Millennium. The idea is actually about the holy city, sanctuary and oblation of Ezekiel 40 forward being a temporary encampment to God, since the full Godhead will not return to live on the earth with us until after the lake of fire event. Ezekiel hints about Christ going back and forth from earth to Heaven, one of the gates remaining shut for the most part.

Veteran, Would you be kind enough to tell me how to use the quote boxes properly as you do?

It's just HTML. Put the word 'quote' inside brackets at the start, and then '/quote' at the end in brackets.

 

[Episkopos]

The "mansions" of John 14, they're on earth, for the meaning is abodes per the Greek. They're in the Millennium sanctuary and oblation layout per the Book of Ezekiel.

The abiding is now. Jesus says in John 15...abide in Me. We can abide now (seated in heavenly places) in Zion. That is the walk in the Spirit.

 

[Trekson]

Episkopos... Is spiritual Israel the bride of Christ? The NT does not affirm that specifically. That Christ is the groom is undeniable but I have different thoughts on who the bride might be. For now, spiritual Israel and national Israel are separate but that will not always be the case, imo.

Veteran , Your words: "The "mansions" of John 14, they're on earth, for the meaning is abodes per the Greek. They're in the Millennium sanctuary and oblation layout per the Book of Ezekiel."

I disagree, I believe our home is in heaven and that is where our "mansions/rooms are". We may eventually come to earth when the New Jerusalem does at the end of the millennium. I do agree with your thoughts on Ez. 40 on, but I don't believe the church, beyond visiting, will have a "dwelling" there. I believe the 144,000 will be the new priests for that era and the land will be divided among the actual living national Israelites who survive the sheep and goat judgments along with the 144,000. I also believe we'll be zipping back and forth from heaven to earth in the blink of an eye with our glorified bodies when Christ wants us, so it's not really a matter of separation as we'll eternally be in contact spiritually. I also believe Is. 25 is speaking to national Israel, not the church. The church has not replaced the Israel of the OT.



Veteran, Also, I believe Ez. 47 to be the NJ, post-millennium and the "camp" of Rev. 20 implies a "battle camp" in preparation for the final war,according to Strong's, not a dwelling place.

 

[Saint]

The Rev.21 & 22 chapters actually combine the time of Christ's thousand years and after the "lake of fire" event. No sactuary or temple after the lake of fire event, which is pointing to the new heavens and a new earth time. Rev.21-22 suggests the holy city is not upon the earth until the new heavens and a new earth timing, but the actual answer is that Ezekiel 40-47 is the rest of the detail, showing the holy city will be established during the Millennium timing.

I think your are right Veteran about the Holy City not coming to earth until after the events of the release of Satan after the 1000 years are complete; however I suspect that the time from the release of Satan until the beginning of eternity is a separate age in itself; it is a separate time within itself, however will be very short compared to the rest of the ages . I'm beginning to see seven ages of which we are currently in the fourth age and of course Yeshua will deliver the Eternal Kingdom of the New Heaven and the New Earth to Elohim Yahweh , and Father God Himself will come down to earth to dwell with men in the seventh and finial age.

Of course Yeshua is the King of the ages; Revelation 15:3 (NIV)They held harps given them by God and sang the song of Moses the servant of God and the song of the Lamb: “Great and marvellous are your deeds, Lord God Almighty. Just and true are your ways, King of the ages (aion).

In Yeshua Messiah,

Bob

 

[veteran]

Veteran , Your words: "The "mansions" of John 14, they're on earth, for the meaning is abodes per the Greek. They're in the Millennium sanctuary and oblation layout per the Book of Ezekiel."

I disagree, I believe our home is in heaven and that is where our "mansions/rooms are". We may eventually come to earth when the New Jerusalem does at the end of the millennium. I do agree with your thoughts on Ez. 40 on, but I don't believe the church, beyond visiting, will have a "dwelling" there. I believe the 144,000 will be the new priests for that era and the land will be divided among the actual living national Israelites who survive the sheep and goat judgments along with the 144,000. I also believe we'll be zipping back and forth from heaven to earth in the blink of an eye with our glorified bodies when Christ wants us, so it's not really a matter of separation as we'll eternally be in contact spiritually. I also believe Is. 25 is speaking to national Israel, not the church. The church has not replaced the Israel of the OT.

Veteran, Also, I believe Ez. 47 to be the NJ, post-millennium and the "camp" of Rev. 20 implies a "battle camp" in preparation for the final war,according to Strong's, not a dwelling place.

You're free to believe what you want, but the priest's abodes are revealed among the Millennium sanctuary of Ezekiel called God's "house". Christ's elect there are the Zadok, which means the 'Just'. That's the promise He gave for those who overcome in Him to be kings and priests and reign with Him on earth (Rev.5:10).

Rev 5:10
10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
(KJV)

That's not limited to the 144,000 which are only Israelites. Many miss how the "great multitude" of Rev.7 is a pointer to 'sealed' Gentiles who overcome, which will be of those Zadok too, which is why... they are shown standing before The Lamb in Rev.7 in final.

Ezekiel 47 is Millennial timing, simply because Ezekiel is shown those waters emitting from where? From under the threshold of God's "house" at the south side of the altar, which is already there on earth during the Millennium...

Ezek 47:1
1 Afterward he brought me again unto the door of the house; and, behold, waters issued out from under the threshold of the house eastward: for the forefront of the house stood toward the east, and the waters came down from under from the right side of the house, at the south side of the altar.
(KJV)


The Isaiah 25 Scripture is specific to ALL peoples, not just Israelites...

Isa 25:6-9
6 And in this mountain shall the LORD of hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined.
7 And He will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations.
8 He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of His people shall He take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.
9 And it shall be said in that day, "Lo, this is our God; we have waited for Him, and He will save us: this is the LORD; we have waited for Him, we will be glad and rejoice in His salvation."
(KJV)

That's not just for Israel, nor just the Church. It's for ALL nations and peoples. It's in regard to the end of today's time with the heavenly revealed upon this earth to ALL peoples. There will still be dead souls in a liable to perish state in that Milennial time, still not having accepted Christ's Salvation. And that's what Ezekiel 44 is pointing to also, i.e., souls that will stand in judgment before Christ and His elect who will teach them the difference between the clean and the unclean, between what is holy and what is profane.

The idea that we are going to be taken up off the earth to some place among the stars for that Milennial time is not written. That's an idea of men.

I think your are right Veteran about the Holy City not coming to earth until after the events of the release of Satan after the 1000 years are complete; however I suspect that the time from the release of Satan until the beginning of eternity is a separate age in itself; it is a separate time within itself, however will be very short compared to the rest of the ages .

How you quoted me and interpreted me is not really what I said.

Because many do not study the Ezekiel sanctuary and layout of the holy city on earth for Christ's Milennial reign, they instead only know the Rev.21-22 example of it which John was given. Fact is, Rev.21-22 contain a mixed timeline, from the period of Christ's "thousand years" reign to the period of the new heavens and a new earth after the "lake of fire" event. The holy city is established on earth for Christ's "thousand years" reign. It's simply called the "camp of the saints" in Rev.20:9.

Here's an example of Milennial timing in Rev.22...

Rev 22:14-15
14 Blessed are they that do His commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
(KJV)

Notice that "city" with "gates" of separation, along with the manifesting of the "tree of life" in that time, associated in time with those of v.15 outside... the city. That's Milennium timing, not new heavens and a new earth timing. That's still a time before God's great white throne judgment of Rev.20. The separation between Christ's sheep and the goats on the left-hand will be literal, and it will be a lateral separation on earth, not... a separation between heaven and earth.

Another question about that Rev.22:14-15 Scripture should be, what's it doing in Rev.22, since that's Rev.20 Milennial timing? So like I said, Milennial timing and new heavens and new earth timing are mixed within the Rev.21-22 chapters. And OT Scripture like Ezekiel 40 through 48 helps us learn to separate that mix in Revelation. Same idea actually happens with the Ezekiel 40 through 48 chapters too, as the very last chapter proclaims God on earth with the new name of the Holy City as Yahaveh Shamah ("The LORD is there").

You guys want to go to Heaven so badly, you're missing how our Heavenly Father established this earth to be inhabited, to be lived upon. What you're not understanding is how the heavenly dimension is going to be revealed on earth, right here, to all peoples. So we don't have need to leave the earth for that. Leave the dream castles to men whom God did not call. Listen to God in His Word about it instead. I guarantee you, the new heavens and a new earth established once Christ's Milennium is over will not leave any of us wanting.

I'm beginning to see seven ages of which we are currently in the fourth age and of course Yeshua will deliver the Eternal Kingdom of the New Heaven and the New Earth to Elohim Yahweh , and Father God Himself will come down to earth to dwell with men in the seventh and finial age.

Of course Yeshua is the King of the ages; Revelation 15:3 (NIV)They held harps given them by God and sang the song of Moses the servant of God and the song of the Lamb: “Great and marvellous are your deeds, Lord God Almighty. Just and true are your ways, King of the ages (aion).

In Yeshua Messiah,

Bob

I'm aware of how Dispensationalism created a separation of 'spiritual' type ages regarding the flow of God's Plan of Salvation, but that's not truly about the idea of world ages, like in 2 Peter 3.

According to Peter:
"the world that then was" = 1
"the heavens and the earth which are now" = 2
"the new heavens, and a new earth" = 3