Question for non-JW's

[Wrangler]

Michael is the JW savior. Jesus / God is the Christian Savior.

Your hatred of "the OTHER" is such that you resort to slander. Can you truly believe that JW's don't hold God through Jesus as their savior?

JW's consider themselves Christian. That's good enough for me. Why is it not good enough for you?

 

[face2face]

Appeal to Strawman. Just because one man did not speak a truth does not mean it is not true. There is no evidence that Jesus attributes circles as being round. Yet, round they are!

I think only one theologically driven to deny it, could not find Biblical evidence of what @Aunty Jane wrote. Again, I bring you to the verses right after Jesus baptism. Satan offered the world to Jesus because he is the god of this world. And Judaism is a part of this fallen world.

Friend, I think you are in spiritual denial. You do not know who we contend with; it is not merely the darkness within. Please comment on this verse.


We are not fighting against humans. We are fighting against forces and authorities and against rulers of darkness and powers in the spiritual world.
Ephesians 6:12 (CEV)

Your strawman remark has no merit! It's not on me to disprove the existence of a rebel angel but the weight of responsiblity is on you (and others) to prove it.

Can we find something to agree on first?

16 And when Jesus was baptized, immediately he went up from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened to him,[c] and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and coming to rest on him; 17 and behold, a voice from heaven said, “This is my beloved Son,[d] with whom I am well pleased.”

The temptations happen AFTER the Fullness of God's Spirit rested on Jesus....and then the Spirit drives Jesus into the Wilderness to be tested. What was being tested was his Sonship...the same as Israel in Deut 8:2,5

2 And you shall remember the whole way that the Lord your God has led you these forty years in the wilderness, that he might humble you, testing you to know what was in your heart, whether you would keep his commandments or not. Dt 8:2.

And verse 5

5 Know then in your heart that, as a man disciplines his son, the Lord your God disciplines you. Dt 8:5.

Do you agree with the above?
If you don't, there is no point us speaking about the temptations.

(as a side note the temptations of Christ are mapped to Israels in the Wilderness, however no such creature or rebel angel is mentioned at all there!)

I'm also happy to start a new OP and study this together.

F2F

 

[face2face]

I think only one theologically driven to deny it, could not find Biblical evidence of what @Aunty Jane wrote.

Janes has tried to explain her rebel angel, but never with evidence that supports the details...its all-man-made notions which have been taught her as a child. Did I go too hard at her, possibly. I'm sure you have seen some of her reasonings on Job and how flawed that was...her twisting of other text which when shown to be in the wrong she falls back on her community as being guided into all truth - something I know is false of itself.

Anyway, I'm happy to take you through the evidence that proves the false accuser is not a rebel angel.

Be good to find some things to agree on before the onslaught of disagreement.

F2F

 

[Aunty Jane]

I think only one theologically driven to deny it, could not find Biblical evidence of what @Aunty Jane wrote. Again, I bring you to the verses right after Jesus baptism. Satan offered the world to Jesus because he is the god of this world. And Judaism is a part of this fallen world.

The words of Jesus to the Jewish religious leaders should suffice….
John 8:42-44….
“42 Jesus said to them: “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and I am here. I have not come of my own initiative, but that One sent me. 43 Why do you not understand what I am saying? Because you cannot listen to my word. 44 You are from your father the Devil, and you wish to do the desires of your father. That one was a murderer when he began, and he did not stand fast in the truth, because truth is not in him. When he speaks the lie, he speaks according to his own disposition, because he is a liar and the father of the lie.”

This is hardly speaking about a mere quality of evil in a person. It demonstrates who is influencing the minds of those who oppose God and his kingdom……the same one who influenced Eve in the garden of Eden.…”the father of the lie.”

 

[face2face]

The words of Jesus to the Jewish religious leaders should suffice….
John 8:42-44….
“42 Jesus said to them: “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and I am here. I have not come of my own initiative, but that One sent me. 43 Why do you not understand what I am saying? Because you cannot listen to my word. 44 You are from your father the Devil, and you wish to do the desires of your father. That one was a murderer when he began, and he did not stand fast in the truth, because truth is not in him. When he speaks the lie, he speaks according to his own disposition, because he is a liar and the father of the lie.”

This is hardly speaking about a mere quality of evil in a person. It demonstrates who is influencing the minds of those who oppose God and his kingdom……the same one who influenced Eve in the garden of Eden.…”the father of the lie.”

@Wrangler

Okay, so Jesus is saying they are the seed of the Serpent and not the seed of the woman! The Serpent gave the first lie and became a false accuser to the first pair - a symbol of those who practice the things of the flesh.

Context:

It's interesting that Abraham is the context and we know Ishmael is their "father", the servant and not the son (John 8:33-36).

Is it a coincidence Jane that these men would issue the same taunt as Ishmael levelled against his brother Isaac!? (Read Gen 21:9).

I wonder if you can see the truth of this? Would you be honest enough to acknowledge this?

So now we come to your reference in verse 44 having given some of the context.

The word "Diabolos" = false accuser, liar is used and usually relates to humans. They have slandered Christ as illegitimate. (The serpent was a false accuser of God -- accusing Him of an untruth in Gen 3:4) So you have the Seed of Serpent the liar but who was the murderer from the beginning?

Answer: Cain (Gen 4:8,9) - Would they do what Cain did to Abel?

Notice how Jesus said it was according to his nature that he did these things?

John 8:44 You are of your father the false accuser, and your will (carnal!) is to do your father’s desires (lusts from his nature). He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies. Jn 8:44.

According to Jesus, men can have only one of two fathers:

They can be the seed of Abraham (John 8:33) but only if they do the works of Abraham (v 39) fleshly descent is not enough! Or, they can be the seed of the serpent (John 8: 41,44), if they do his works -- that is, lying, subtlety, murder. In seeking to kill the true "seed of Abraham" (Read verse 40), these Jews were admitting that they belonged in the other family.

There is no evidence in this text to force a rebel angel when you read the text carefully, Jesus is leading his listeners to the realisation they are not of Abraham, but of the seed of the serpent, a fear that Paul later had when writing these words to the Corinthians "But I am afraid that as the serpent deceived Eve by his cunning, your thoughts (minds) will be led astray from a sincere and pure devotion to Christ."

See the focus "your thoughts will be led astray" i.e to think like an animal!...Like the Serpent!

What you need Jane is a passage where Jesus teaches solely on this rebel angel but there isnt one.

F2F

 

[face2face]

@Wrangler & @Aunty Jane

Do you like how Jesus finishes his lesson? Who can convince me of sin? Jesus just convinced them of their sins! And now he issues the reality check:

John 8:47 Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God.” Jn 8:47.

If they are not of God, who are they of? A rebel Angel? Or, the Seed of the Serpent i.e Cain?

We should not be like Cain, who was of the evil one (means "wicked or evil") and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his own deeds were evil and his brother's righteous. 1 John 3:12

John assigns the responsibility to Cain actions to being evil & wicked and when discribing WHY he was this way, the Scripture provides it was because his own deeds were evil...Cain was the first man to manifest the carnal mind in its completeness.

F2F

 

[face2face]

@Wrangler @Aunty Jane

Completing the study of the section we have the continuation of thought from Jesus:

John 8:38 I speak of what I have seen with my Father, and you do what you have heard from your father. Jn 8:38.

Wow,

Your Father

1. The Serpent (Verse 44)
2. Cain (Verse 49)
3. Ismael (Verse 35)

Jane, Jesus is giving them (and you) a sunday school lesson on the seed of the serpent!

I'm happy for both of you to read these verses again and return with a change of heart on this section!

In the Masters Service

F2F

 

[Ritajanice]

You left out the part where it says the Son is God. How Satanic!

Hi Jack....what is God’s word saying here?

John 10:30​

30 I and the Father are one.”

 

[Behold]

Your hatred of "the OTHER" is such that you resort to slander. Can you truly believe that JW's don't hold God through Jesus as their savior?

JW's dont believe that Jesus rose bodily from the Grave.

Your bible says that over 500 people saw Jesus walking around, after He died, and that does not include the 11 Apostles.

So, the JW's dont agree..

We can start there with this cult's theology, and it just gets WORSE.

 

[Behold]

JW's consider themselves Christian. That's good enough for me.

Is it good enough for God?

So, your "blind tolerance' is up and running, again.

 

[Mr E]

Your hatred of "the OTHER" is such that you resort to slander. Can you truly believe that JW's don't hold God through Jesus as their savior?

JW's consider themselves Christian. That's good enough for me. Why is it not good enough for you?

Michael is the JW savior. Jesus / God is the Christian Savior.

Seventh Day Adventists too.... they believe and teach that 'the great prince' is both Michael and Jesus. And they consider themselves Christian.

Mormons also consider themselves Christian. As do some Baptists, if you can believe it.

The thing is-- everybody.... every "body" gets some things right and other things wrong. What a wonderful, wonderful, wonderful world this would be, if everybody could admit that. Ahh, but for ugly pride and arrogance, they would.

 

[Wrangler]

Your strawman remark has no merit! It's not on me to disprove the existence of a rebel angel but the weight of responsiblity is on you (and others) to prove it.

Can we find something to agree on first?

I'm just going to put you on ignore, whether you agree or not.

 

[Wrangler]

The words of Jesus to the Jewish religious leaders should suffice….
John 8:42-44….

It should suffice. But as I said, he is theologically driven to deny it.

 

[Wrangler]

The thing is-- everybody.... every "body" gets some things right and other things wrong. ... but for ugly pride and arrogance, they would. (admit it)

Hence the need for this thread.

The arrogant IDOL worshippers can't get past their IDOL of doctrine. Given that image bearers of God have different doctrine, how then shall we interact?

The legalists say 'off with your head,' have nothing to do with them. Jesus said the greatest command is unconditional. He didn't say anything about loving people provided their doctrine is right!!!

If we, the Church of Jesus cannot get this correct, it shows how dramatically we have failed Christ's standard of BY THIS, the world (meaning unbelievers) will know we are his disciples. Our need for a loving shepherd has never been greater.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

That is not true.
1Tim 15-16
15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

Also look at John 3:16. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

So if you don't believe, you perish, not are eternally in the process of perishing.

Actually to perish is to suffer the second death

Revelation 20:14
Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

 

[Cassandra]

Actually to perish is to suffer the second death

Revelation 20:14
Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

The first death is of this mortal body/ the second death is permanent death, Jesus saves us from the second death.

 

[Jack]

Your hatred of "the OTHER" is such that you resort to slander. Can you truly believe that JW's don't hold God through Jesus as their savior?

JW's consider themselves Christian. That's good enough for me. Why is it not good enough for you?

You already lied and accused me of slander twice. Now you're lying again accusing me of hatred. And yet you deny that Jesus is THE Savior. I guess there's not a lot of difference between you and JW's. Still waiting for your apology for accusing me of slander which I provided your quote. Want to see your quote again?

 

[Jack]

Hi Jack....what is God’s word saying here?

John 10:30​

30 I and the Father are one.”

John 14
9 Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?

 

[face2face]

I'm just going to put you on ignore, whether you agree or not.

Wow Wrangler, you went for the soft option! I never took you for someone who wouldn't rise to the challenge of proving your truth. Your reply is going to show a lot of people this subject is not as clear cut as many think. No rebuttal at all?

As you read the insights into John 8 and how Jesus was educating the people on whose Father, they choose I will keep educating those on the true nature of the adversary and the false accuser in the hope people will focus the use of their spiritual weapons on the real enemy within.

If your heart softens over time or you wish to have a mature discussion on this subject feel free to reach out!

F2F

 

[Jack]

Seventh Day Adventists too.... they believe and teach that 'the great prince' is both Michael and Jesus. And they consider themselves Christian.

Mormons also consider themselves Christian. As do some Baptists, if you can believe it.

The thing is-- everybody.... every "body" gets some things right and other things wrong. What a wonderful, wonderful, wonderful world this would be, if everybody could admit that. Ahh, but for ugly pride and arrogance, they would.

BUT getting the right Savior is true Christianity.