Forgiveness vs Atonement

[Behold]

I can assure you, he would NEVER in a million years have me theologically lost in the dark...I’m a Born Again...a child of God..

He'll keep trying.
As that's His "ministry".

 

[ChristisGod]

Yes.

The "gnostics" didn't believer there was a need for the Cross, because they didnt believe in 'original sin".

So, "if there is no sin, then there is no need of a Jesus on the Cross, paying for it". = Gnostic teaching.

Episkops does not seem to have a very good opinion of the Cross...

He is the one who posted to me that Jesus's Cross = "Whipping Boy".

I can't imagine that someone who claims to be a Christian, would ever say such a thing, on a "christian forum".

its blasphemy of Jesus to refer to Him that way- taking the Lords name in vain punishable by death.

 

[GTW27]

The spirit of Behold and EG is a religious spirit. Without having discernment you are caught in that same web.

What I teach is from the Holy Spirit that you claim to be born from??? Very strange indeed.

"What I teach is from the Holy Spirit" Not so. If this were so, you would have the fruit there of. As it is, just on these boards alone, you can not go a day with out sin leaving your lips. You need to repent and seek forgiveness before He who is Holy and Righteous. You talk about a day of judgment for others and yet you can not see what proceeds that, that makes it too late to repent, to late to be forgiven. And truly, truly, I tell you, it is coming. Coming upon the whole world. There will be no place to hide!

 

[Behold]

its blasphemy of Jesus to refer to Him that way- taking the Lords name in vain punishable by death.

Im glad we are not living back in the Old Testament times...

They'd stone you. No questions asked. They'd Grab you, throw you in a hole and ... here come the rocks.
They did this to Paul, also.
He was raised from the dead.

And there are 2 teachings on "taking God's name in Vain".

Let me show you #2, as i dont think it'll side track the Thread, and some might not know this teaching, and would enjoy knowing it.


1.) If you are married, then your wife "took your name.."
Right?
She now has your last name, as hers.

So, when we become the BRIDE of Christ, we are "married to another", not the law, but to the Bridegroom, who is JESUS The Lord.

So, we have "taken His Name".... = we are CHRISTians.... "one with God". "married to the SON". Married to the Bridegroom.

See that?

So, if you do that in pretense.... if you are a FAKE Believer.... a minister of the Devil........pretending to be born again, pretending to be a "minister of righteousness".... then you are taking God's name = FALSELY = in Vain, and that'll get you killed or something like it.

There are 3 things that will get you killed or very harmed down here, regarding the Spiritual realm.

1.) Openly living in sin as a believer, a backslider.... and you wont stop, you refuse to repent and turn from it.... and God has dealt with you about it. = Paul said, you will die.

2.) Taking God's Name in Vain... = Pretending to be born again, pretending to be a Christian.... faking it, for money, attention, or just to try to harm other believers, as the devil has his ministers doing it, all the time.... will get you killed or something like it.

3.) Being an outspoken critic of God and Christ...... A hateful unbeliever, who has gained a forum..... such as a TV show, or you write books, and you use this PUBLIC forum to come against Truth, who is Jesus........ will get you killed.

Most other sins of the unbeliever, or works of the flesh that are committed by a believer, are judged on earth... as "sowing and reaping". or "your sin will find you out'.

 

[Episkopos]

"What I teach is from the Holy Spirit" Not so. If this were so, you would have the fruit there of. As it is, just on these boards alone, you can not go a day with out sin leaving your lips. You need to repent and seek forgiveness before He who is Holy and Righteous. You talk about a day of judgment for others and yet you can not see what proceeds that, that makes it too late to repent, to late to be forgiven. And truly, truly, I tell you, it is coming. Coming upon the whole world. There will be no place to hide!

"What I teach is from the Holy Spirit" Not so. If this were so, you would have the fruit there of. As it is, just on these boards alone, you can not go a day with out sin leaving your lips. You need to repent and seek forgiveness before He who is Holy and Righteous. You talk about a day of judgment for others and yet you can not see what proceeds that, that makes it too late to repent, to late to be forgiven. And truly, truly, I tell you, it is coming. Coming upon the whole world. There will be no place to hide!

So what you are saying is NOT from the Holy Spirit...that's what you are saying. Your fruit is to back up a carnal religious argumentation. So you have a religious opinion. No surprise there.

 

[Ritajanice]

Galatians 5:22-23

King James Version

​

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

A pretend righteousness comes from a pretend god.

pretend righteousness?

Its obvious you know nothing about redemption..

when a persons crimes are paid for by another person.. they can not be tried for that crime again.

You have yet to encounter the real God...you have no idea what God says about you.

Actually I do..

1. there is non righteous, no not one
2. According to the law. I am a sinner..
3. According to the law I am unrighteous..

In your idea of Him...a make-believe perspective. The Pharisees also thought that Moses would be giving them high-fives...rather than condemn them as Jesus said. A big "oops" there.

Yep, Because LIKE YOU.. they thought they were made righteous by how good they were..

That is what you are doing...trusting that your opinions match God's.

No, I am trusting God. not myself. like you are

Those people died in the wilderness after a TEMPORARY healing. You are making a temporary healing to mean an eternal justification. You should be looking at what Joshua and Caleb did...not the masses of people who perished. We are to look to Jesus in all areas of our lives...including our temporary situations.

Jesus said it not me..

Jesus said whoever looked at him would NEVER DIE. and has ETERNAL LIFE

You need to ask jesus why he used that as an example./. and ask him to help you understand.

Trust "it" is right. But not trust in an actual risen Christ. The REAL Person.


Trust "it" again. false religion.


God was IN Jesus reconciling the world to Himself. God didn't judge His Son...and certainly not as a sinner. Your scheme is a fantasy.

If God did not judge his son in your and my place. we are still dead. and have no hope.

false. True grace empowers people to walk as Jesus walked. There are REWARDS for that.

Salvation is NOT a reward. it is a gift..

False. read the bible. The Publican and the Pharisee.

I was the pharisee. you are the publican.. everyone can see this (except your followers)

I don't think I'm righteous...you do.

Slander.

You do think you are righteous.. you have to. or else you in your own belief would not go to heaven

A truth that is far above your religious understanding.


On what level?


Not just forgiven...atoned for. This was a marker until Jesus Christ could actually cleanse people from their sins...


Have you even read the bible?

LOL. You are way over your head.

You are way under the word.

Your a pharisee that will be one of those who try to tell God all your great works.

Jesus will say depart for he NEVER knew you

Because you reject the cross.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Correct. This is another connotation of the word. In a judicial setting, "dikaios" is declared if both parties agree on fair compensation.

Again, it depends on what you mean by "righteous." Paul isn't suggesting that we are made "morally good" or that God accounts "faith in Christ" as "morally good." Rather, Paul is saying that God considers us "approved" or "right with him." We might say, "pardoned."
say that God

I just use Abraham as an example.

And he believed God and God accounted or credited to him as righteous.

When God sees him, he does not see abraham's filth. he sees his sons righteousness

I would say that justification is based on God's grace. If you like, in our parlance, "justification by faith" is like our system of arbitration. It's a matter of what the offended person is willing to accept in order to be satisfied.

It must be Gods grace. because we can not earn it, We are guilty. That's why redemption though the blood had to take place.

Our guilt was paid in full..

Suppose a man kills another man's cow. Justice requires that the first man replace the cow he killed -- a cow for a cow. If the man killed the cow out of malice, the second man may require additional compensation to settle accounts. Now suppose it was an accident and the first man is poor and unable to pay for an entire cow. The judge will ask the second man if there might be some other way to resolve the situation. The second man will propose another way to settle the issue. He might, for instance, ask the first man to help him build a new fence for his cattle. If the first man agrees then the judge will render the verdict "dikaios" -- "justified." In other words, both parties agree to a course of action that will resolve the situation and the judge declares that the situation has been resolved.

but we have to look at it this way

Any sin any man commits comes at a price. The penalty of sin is death

so if I say a lie, the penalty is death

If I steal, the penalty is death

If I dishonor my parent, the penalty is death

if I fail to love the lord my God in all things, for even a minute.. the penalty is death

so the only thing that can justify a person with a death penalty is the death of another. Because that is all God will accept (it is why he sent his son as the lamb of God..

This is close to the way that Paul uses the term "justified" when he talks about being "justified by faith." It's like a hypothetical judge is asking God, "What will it take for you to be satisfied?" God tells the judge that he will be satisfied if the offender repents and believes in his son Jesus. So then if the offender repents and believes in his son Jesus, the judge will render the verdict "dikaios" -- "justified"

I disagree.

God said what will satisfy him is the blood of his son.

But God will not just force his gift on everyone.. So he offers it to all. only the ones who in faith recieve it will be saved..

It is not their faith that saved them it was grace.

for we have been saved BY GRACE through faith..

faith is just the means we receive the grace offered.

Agreed.

Actually, I don't think our justification was bought with a price at least not directly. Previously, I mentioned motive, whereby the first man killed the second man's cow out of malice. This act represents enmity between the two men. Undoubtedly the second man will want more than the replacement of his cow. He will also want some signal of amity. The situation can't be resolved until both parties agree to reconcile.

The cross of Christ answers to the question, "What will it take to make peace with God?" My malice and enmity with God must be resolved before he will be willing to grant me justification by faith. I need to make peace with God. Paul argues that Jesus Christ made peace with God on the cross and that God accepts all those who trust in the cross as the means of reconciliation. Jesus and God worked that out while we were still his enemies. But now that we are his friends, Paul says, God poured out his spirit into our hearts, which guarantees that we will receive our glorification.

yes.. I like this

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Attention Prayer Warriors, my daughter just rushed my SIL to ER w/CP.
please help me pray.
many thx

praying

 

[Episkopos]

What a bunch of junk theology you keep posting..
Its just NT rejection, constantly posted by you.

False. You are inventing a religious sin-approving scheme that denies the power of the cross to kill the sin nature. You are preaching a powerless gospel built on lies.

Listen, no one comes to Christ as "faithful".....
We come to Christ as a SINNER.....

You preach a Christ as a minister of sin...God forbid. Those who come to Him are justified..not IN their sins...but FROM their sins. You have a sinful holiness as being acceptable to God....not the real God...only your religious god.

"Jesus came in to the world to save SINNERS".

Yes...FROM their sins...not IN their sins. Not pretending they don't sin...but giving them the power to overcome sins as Jesus also overcame sin.

So, for you to teach that we are to be FAITHFUL FIRST......, when we are "all have sinned" our entire lives......so that God will give us Salvation- Righteousness...................

False. Going to God for forgiveness is to be deemed faithful ...by the justification of faith. Read the bible.

Your Theology is just so Cross denying and Bizarre.

You are an enemy of the cross...always having Jesus there while you simply point to Him and claim extravagant things for yourself...while refusing to go to Christ to also be crucified.

You want the benefits of Christ but without actually following Him. You want to be elevated in your religious ego...and you encourage others to also avoid the cross who care for their self-life to be preserved. But God is not in the ego business. So you are fully outside of obedience to the gospel.

 

[Behold]

False You are inventing a religious sin-approving scheme

The Cross of Christ is not a "sin- approving scheme"...
Its actually the Blood Atonement, that is the New Covenant.

You preach a Christ as a minister of sin..

I PREACH Paul's Gospel.

= Jesus.... is the Righteousness of God, who was sacrificed on the Cross, as per God's will, for the sin of this world.

This.= "Christ came into the WORLD.. to save sinners"...

The Cross is where God meets the lost sinner, with Eternal Salvation.

Faith in Christ meets Eternal Life 'IN Christ", every time.

It never fails.

Those who come to Him are justified..not IN their sins..

Everyone comes to God for His Salvation.... as a sinner.

You're this one.. @Episkopos...."all have sinned"

See that "all"? Thats you., and just like the rest of the "all have sinned"..(everyone) . that is what we bring to God's Cross as an unbeliever..., so that the Blood Atonement, that is the Cross of Christ, that is the New Covenant', can be imputed to us, =, as "Salvation" and "the Gift of Righteousness".

Notice now Paul's verse.....

"to him that worketh not... (no previous deeds, no deeds at all ).. but BELIEVETH on GOD who Justifies the UNGODLY...... the person's FAITH is counted by GOD, as Christ's Righteousness"..

"justification by Faith".
"Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him (his faith) as RIGHTEOUS">
"Abraham is the father of our FAITH".

Yes...FROM their sins...not IN their sins. Not pretending they don't sin...but giving them the power to overcome sins as Jesus also overcame sin.

If a person is born again, they dont have any sin.
Jesus has died for it all in the Cross.

1.) "God hath made JESUS......to BE SIN for us... .. because...>"Jesus is the ONE TIME.... ETERNAL Sacrifice for SIN".

2.) There is no Sin found "in Christ" and all the born again are "in Christ" "One with God'.

False. Going to God for forgiveness is to be deemed faithful ...by the justification of faith. Read the bible.

Not at all.
Listen...
Its when you go to God with FAITH IN CHRIST, that you are deemed a BELIEVER,... and "all that believe in Jesus, shall be SAVED".

You are an enemy of the cross.

Im a preacher of the Cross for a lot longer then you've been a Calvinist.. See, you are the one who studies doctrines of Men, and is so very confused regarding your Luke 11:35 darkness.

Im the one who Keeps that Cross lifted high and against you, and that is why you OVER-REACTED months ago and said to ME ,.."Whipping boy"...concerning The Lord JESUS, Himself.

These members, who read what i write, have noted that im all about the Cross of Christ., and not just on this Forum.
Im all about giving JESUS ALONE,= all the Credit due Him for saving us, and keeping us saved.

Welcome to the Cross. = The Blood of Jesus = the Blood Atonement = The New Covenant.
Its the Gospel of the Grace of God. (Just ask Paul).

You want the benefits of Christ but without actually following Him.

You dont know me in real life, silly dishonest person.
So, what you have to do , to be honest, is read what Paul teaches, and then if you ever do study , say... Romans 3:21-28.... you'll think... that sounds just like "Behold".
And you would finally be right about something.....

 

[Episkopos]

The Cross of Christ is not a "sin- approving scheme"...
Its actually the Blood Atonement, that is the New Covenant.




I PREACH Paul's Gospel.

= Jesus.... is the Righteousness of God, who was sacrificed on the Cross, as per God's will, for the sin of this world.

This.= "Christ came into the WORLD.. to save sinners"...

The Cross is where God meets the lost sinner, with Eternal Salvation.

Faith in Christ meets Eternal Life 'IN Christ", every time.

It never fails.




Everyone comes to God for His Salvation.... as a sinner.

You're this one.. @Episkopos...."all have sinned"

See that "all"? Thats you., and just like the rest of the "all have sinned"..(everyone) . that is what we bring to God's Cross as an unbeliever..., so that the Blood Atonement, that is the Cross of Christ, that is the New Covenant', can be imputed to us, =, as "Salvation" and "the Gift of Righteousness".

Notice now Paul's verse.....

"to him that worketh not... (no previous deeds, no deeds at all ).. but BELIEVETH on GOD who Justifies the UNGODLY...... the person's FAITH is counted by GOD, as Christ's Righteousness"..

"justification by Faith".
"Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him (his faith) as RIGHTEOUS">
"Abraham is the father of our FAITH".




If a person is born again, they dont have any sin.
Jesus has died for it all in the Cross.

1.) "God hath made JESUS......to BE SIN for us... .. because...>"Jesus is the ONE TIME.... ETERNAL Sacrifice for SIN".

2.) There is no Sin found "in Christ" and all the born again are "in Christ" "One with God'.




Not at all.
Listen...
Its when you go to God with FAITH IN CHRIST, that you are deemed a BELIEVER,... and "all that believe in Jesus, shall be SAVED".



Im a preacher of the Cross for a lot longer then you've been a Calvinist.. See, you are the one who studies doctrines of Men, and is so very confused regarding your Luke 11:35 darkness.

Im the one who Keeps that Cross lifted high and against you, and that is why you OVER-REACTED months ago and said to ME ,.."Whipping boy"...concerning The Lord JESUS, Himself.

These members, who read what i write, have noted that im all about the Cross of Christ., and not just on this Forum.
Im all about giving JESUS ALONE,= all the Credit due Him for saving us, and keeping us saved.

Welcome to the Cross. = The Blood of Jesus = the Blood Atonement = The New Covenant.
Its the Gospel of the Grace of God. (Just ask Paul).



You dont know me in real life, silly dishonest person.
So, what you have to do , to be honest, is read what Paul teaches, and then if you ever do study , say... Romans 3:21-28.... you'll think... that sounds just like "Behold".
And you would finally be right about something.....

Too many levels of error here to comment on. One can just assume that everything said in this post is false and meant to deceive the true believer.

 

[Behold]

Too many levels of error here to comment on. One can just assume that everything said in this post is false and meant to deceive the true believer.

@Episkopos ,

You are the one who would read that I wrote that : Christ is God's Gift of Salvation. : That Christ is the Blood Atonement. That Christ's Blood Atonement, <>that is the Cross of Christ<>, is the New Covenant.

= You are the one that just said that all this is "levels of error" and "deception".

So again, you deny the Cross, as God's Salvation.

See @Episkopos .. according to what you just told us again... you are self defined as this one..

1 Corinthians 1:18​

""""For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish = foolishness; (error) ..... but unto us which are saved, IT, (the preaching of THE CROSS).... is = the power of God."""

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Too many levels of error here to comment on. One can just assume that everything said in this post is false and meant to deceive the true believer.

once again

if he is wrong, You are still dead in your sin, we all are.

 

[Episkopos]

@Episkopos ,

You are the one who would read that I wrote that : Christ is God's Gift of Salvation. : That Christ is the Blood Atonement. That Christ's Blood Atonement, <>that is the Cross of Christ<>, is the New Covenant.

= You are the one that just said that all this is "levels of error" and "deception".

You are the deceiver, not the bible. Again you wrap yourself in a cloak of falsehood. I'm amazed that some can't see that.

You are twisting the bible narrative to the advantage of sinful flesh...at every turn. You don't realize yet that the flesh is against the Spirit and the Spirit against the flesh. You have no understanding at all.

So again, you deny the Cross, as God's Salvation.

Not the way you mean it to be. We are saved from the POWER of sin by being crucified in the flesh nature...the part you are claiming is saved by a human religious belief.

See @Episkopos .. according to what you just told us again... you are self defined as this one..

1 Corinthians 1:18​

""""For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish = foolishness; (error) ..... but unto us which are saved, IT, (the preaching of THE CROSS).... is = the power of God."""

The power of God...is what you are denying.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You are the deceiver, not the bible. Again you wrap yourself in a cloak of falsehood. I'm amazed that some can't see that.

You are twisting the bible narrative to the advantage of sinful flesh...at every turn. You don't realize yet that the flsh is against the Spirit and the Spirit against the flesh. You have no understanding at all.


Not the way you mean it to be. We are saved from the POWER of sin by being crucified in the flesh nature...the part you are claiming is saved by a human religious belief.

The power of God...is what you are denying.

once again

if you have not been saved from the penalty or wage of sin, your still dead.

what part of dead do you not comprehend?

Romans 6:23

For the wages of sin is death,

 

[Behold]

Again, it depends on what you mean by "righteous." Paul isn't suggesting that we are made "morally good" or that God accounts "faith in Christ" as "morally good." Rather, Paul is saying that God considers us "approved" or "right with him." We might say, "pardoned."
say that God

I wrote an answer for you, that turned into a Thread.

If you have time..

Find it here..

Salvation : Get the Revelation

- Reader... - 1.) Salvation is God creating/offering the means, the way, for us to be eternally accepted by Him. That's the Cross., and that is the Blood Atonement. But its more then just an atonement... or a "acceptance based on the Cross". Its MUCH MORE. See, we are not dealing with a...

www.christianityboard.com

 

[Episkopos]

once again

if you have not been saved from the penalty or wage of sin, your still dead.

Salvation is NOT about being saved from the penalty of sin. The wages of sin is NOT life. So you are going DIRECTLY against the bible. The wages of sin is still death.

No, through the power of the cross we can be saved from the POWER OF SIN.

what part of dead do you not comprehend?

I understand your doctrine is dead.

Romans 6:23

For the wages of sin is death,

See you know how to quote the bible. Now pay attention and read it the way it is written...not the way your have been indoctrinated.

 

[Behold]

You are the deceiver, not the bible. Again you wrap yourself in a cloak of falsehood. I'm amazed that some can't see that.

They can't "see it" because its not "true".

You dont write Truth.
Your write darkness, pretending to be truth.

Luke 11:35

You are twisting the bible narrative to the advantage of sinful flesh...at every turn.

The born again are "not in the Flesh, but in the Spirit, if God's spirit exist's in you".

That would be me.
That would be all the born again, here.

You don't realize yet that the flesh is against the Spirit and the Spirit against the flesh. You have no understanding at all.

I dont have that Romans 7 and Galatians 5:17 issue you have, little one.

im not "that which i do i hate, and that which i hate i do"... "so i see a war inside myself"

Im not that one, and Paul is not that one.......but people who read no further, got stuck there, and stayed.

I am "made free from sin".

See, Paul teaches it like this....>"Christ ALWAYS gives me the Victory", over the world, the flesh, and the devil.

You dont have this, and that is why you talk about sin, and can't comprehend/discern any truth that teaches what Paul is showing you.

Not the way you mean it to be. We are saved from the POWER of sin

"The power of SIN, is the LAW"... "The Law is the Power of Sin".

"Where there is no LAW, there is no Transgression".

"Christ is the END OF THE LAW, to/for everyone who BELIEVES".

The born again are "NOT under the LAW, but under Grace"..

The born again are "the righteousness of God, in Christ".

The power of God...is what you are denying.

"The preaching of the CROSS" "Is the Power of God, unto Salvation".

And once this is applied, then the power is found here.

Paul teaches..

"I can to ALL things THROUGH CHRIST, which strengthens ME"

"CHRIST always gives me the VICTORY"

See that ?

That is Power of the Holy Spirit, who is "Christ in you the Hope of Glory" if the person is born again.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Salvation is NOT about being saved from the penalty of sin. The wages of sin is NOT life. So you are going DIRECTLY against the bible. The wages of sin is still death.

Your right,

THATS WHY WE NEED SAVED..

Thats why in the same passage it says THE GIFT OF GOD IS ETERNAL LIFE

No, through the power of the cross we can be saved from the POWER OF SIN.

yes,

but more importantly. we are saved from the penalty of sin

otherwise, we are still dead..

I understand your doctrine is dead.

See you know how to quote the bible. Now pay attention and read it the way it is written...not the way your have been indoctrinated.

I see you must still be dead yourself.. since you think your just saved to not sin anymore.. yet you still sin.

lol