John 3 Jesus discussion with Nicodemus

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marks

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It is happening on this board whenever anyone speaks of sinlessness the response is (incredulously and often hatefully ) "how can that be?".

Yet is is the same answer that Jesus gave to the covert Christian Jewish leader, to all of man's problems.
There are different ways people speak of sinlessness. Some condemn everyone who doesn't claim to be sinless, and generally becoming very poorly behaved in the process, and that pretty much always gets a poor response.

Some insist that unless you are sinless, you are not born again. Some claim sinlessness while excusing some sins, rendering their claims meaningless. Some offer sinlessness claims alongside speech that I can only characterize as sinful.

I very rarely see a balanced and truly Scriptural discussion about it.

How can be? Some say you can't get there from here, and only God can do that for you. I question whether that's true, I think we can walk in the Spirit by faith, and as we walk in the Spirit, we don't do the flesh things.

Much love!
 

Hepzibah

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There are different ways people speak of sinlessness. Some condemn everyone who doesn't claim to be sinless, and generally becoming very poorly behaved in the process, and that pretty much always gets a poor response.

Some insist that unless you are sinless, you are not born again. Some claim sinlessness while excusing some sins, rendering their claims meaningless. Some offer sinlessness claims alongside speech that I can only characterize as sinful.

I very rarely see a balanced and truly Scriptural discussion about it.

How can be? Some say you can't get there from here, and only God can do that for you. I question whether that's true, I think we can walk in the Spirit by faith, and as we walk in the Spirit, we don't do the flesh things.

Much love!
@marks, there is definitely a great deal of wrong teaching about sinlessness, bad examples, and a great prejudice due to the holiness movement errors. That is why I quote the early church on it. Of course there were those at that time who opposed it and also in the NT, but the positive teaching is intact and much richer than that found later in the west. I do wish we could have the sort of discussion you espouse.

But do we think fleshy things? That is included in holiness and how can a man control what comes from his heart?
 
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Eternally Grateful

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Sorry to take so long to get back here. I think that marks answered that one in the above post. May I ask, do you not see it?
no problem. take all the time you need.

I was asking about the statement below where you said.

Yet is is the same answer that Jesus gave to the covert Christian Jewish leader, to all of man's problems.

ps, I agree with what Marks said..
 
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Ritajanice

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How can be? Some say you can't get there from here, and only God can do that for you. I question whether that's true, I think we can walk in the Spirit by faith, and as we walk in the Spirit, we don't do the flesh things
This spoke to me Marks.

We play our part I believe, in walking in the Spirit, I have found all the time we hold onto self,( flesh) how can we walk in the Spirit ....we learn to hear his voice as we get closer and closer to him, also what grieves him.......is that him working in us softening our hearts.?

I’ve recognised that we can harden our hearts, when pride and ego take over, so we hold onto the flesh.

Just my thoughts Brother, talking out load...
 
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Eternally Grateful

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@marks, there is definitely a great deal of wrong teaching about sinlessness, bad examples, and a great prejudice due to the holiness movement errors. That is why I quote the early church on it. Of course there were those at that time who opposed it and also in the NT, but the positive teaching is intact and much richer than that found later in the west. I do wish we could have the sort of discussion you espouse.

But do we think fleshy things? That is included in holiness and how can a man control what comes from his heart?
I am reminded of this

Jeremiah 17:9
“The heart is deceitful above all things, And desperately wicked; Who can know it?
 
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Eternally Grateful

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This spoke to me Marks.

We play our part I believe, in walking in the Spirit, I have found all the time we hold onto self,( flesh) how can we walk in the Spirit ....we learn to hear his voice as we get closer and closer to him, also what grieves him.......is that him working in us softening our hearts.?

I’ve recognised that we can harden our hearts, when pride and ego take over, so we hold onto the flesh.

Just my thoughts Brother, talking out load...
where it is dangerous is when we think we do not have issues.. and do not recognize our pride and ego
 
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amigo de christo

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did you know God was in the temple made with hands in the begining? (his presence?)
His presence could indeed be within that place .
The high priest alone could dare to enter into the place behind the curtain , BUT NOT WITHOUT BLOOD COULD EVEN HE enter in .
YET that building itself could never contain GOD . for what House shall ye build for me , has not my hands built all things .
ALL of it was but a shadow of the true . MOSES got a peek at the TRUE while he was up there in the moutain .
AND he built THE PATTERN of the true , but not the very TRUE ITSELF .
It would be like me seeing the true image of what was in heaven and then given
specific instructions by GOD to try and build the replica , REPLICA , the image of what I SEEN IN HEAVEN .
And now a word . YE who seek for JERSUALEM
YE who seek unto the temple
YE who seek GOD
COME YE UNTO THE JERUSALEM , the CITY , the TEMPLE not built by mans hands , COME YE UNTO
THE ACTUAL CITY , the true temple .
THERE IS BUT ONE WAY TO DO THAT .
ONE WAY and ONE WAY ALONE .
YE must come to the HIGH PRIEST .
Now when we seek the high priest
let us first read the old testament .
For within it LIES THE ANSWER TO THE TRUE and not a shadow , but the THE TRUE ITSELF .
IT is written that no priest could perform the duties
of the sacrifice , if he had ANY BLEMISH upon himself. No , not even a mole , no dwarf , no deformity could be seen
Now let us look to the event upon which
Samuel was to annoit the King that was after GODS own heart .
King david .
Yes there once was a lad who loved the LORD and he too KEPT SHEEP , he too protected his flocks , when but a humble
young lad . and GOD was with HIM .
So lets forward now to the event , that event which shows us something .
SHOWS us something that no man , no mortal man can do .
Samuel saw the first born of JESSE . Man samuel thought THIS HAS GOT TO BE HIM . THIS has GOT TO BE HIM .
But samuel saw as does man . He looked upon HIS OUTWARD appearance . DO LET THAT SINK IN A BIT
BUT GOD , GOD said something and i promise the SOMETHING WOULD POINT TO JESUS CHRIST HIMSELF
who was to appear centuries later .
FOR GOD told samuel the KEY .
Before i continue about THIS KEY
I want to remind us of something . WHICH is FAR MORE IMPORTANT TO KNOW and to SEE .
THE the way MAN SEES MAN or the WAY GOD SEES . the way man sees , or the way GOD SEES .
THAT BE THE KEY . THAT BE what is of dire importance .
FOR What did GOD tell samuel . Look not on HIS OUTWARD appearance
See not as man does see . SEE as GOD SEETH . GOD LOOKS UPON THE INSIDE . GOD LOOKETH AT THE HEART .
WHEN looking for the great high priest who alone can bring us unto the HEAVENLY and not the shadow but the TRUE .
WHEN LOOKING for the GREAT HIGH PREIST who alone could ATONE .
SEEK YE HE who is without spot or blemish ON THE INSIDE . SEEK YE HE who was without SIN
SEEK YE HE who never once erred . IMPOSSIBLE for man this is , but NOT WITH GOD .
WHEN SEEKING THE GREAT HIGH PREIST who alone can save , whose blood alone can atone
and reach even to THAT INNER CONSCIOUS
YE cannot seek ANY MAN . for all have sinned , there is no man that has not sinned
BUT THERE IS ONE who came as a man .
GOD cannot sin , and HIS WORD DID BECOME FLESH .
This will trouble many . For even the jews know something .
IF man must be without sin , then who can be the high priest , BUT GOD .
AND THAT MY FRIEND is the ENTIRE POINT OF THIS POST . JESUS was not just some prophet
OH NO . and budda is satans right hand man , the muslims religion of islam is but another tool of satan
And sadly many within christendom itself now follow the dragon to peridtion .
IF JESUS SAID IT , GOD SAID IT . now how about we go back into the bible and lets just see all HE and later the apostels had to say .
CAUSE THEY NEVER ONCE preached a love i see getting preached today
THEY never once preached a unity i see getting preached today .
THEY PREACHED TRUTH . TIME WE LEARN IT .
 
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Hepzibah

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I am reminded of this

Jeremiah 17:9
“The heart is deceitful above all things, And desperately wicked; Who can know it?
Indeed you are correct. But the ones who really do achieve it have a definite testimony of their entry into it. They all go through a really terrible period 'in the wilderness' where they are stripped of all things and become humble. It is clear that the ones who are deceived do not have this humbleness of soul and think themselves above others. They do not have the fruit. That is of no concern to us. Unfortunately it is rare to find this day.
 
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Hepzibah

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no problem. take all the time you need.

I was asking about the statement below where you said.

Yet is is the same answer that Jesus gave to the covert Christian Jewish leader, to all of man's problems.

ps, I agree with what Marks said..
I mean that the answer Jesus gave was he must go through a spiritual entry into a level where his problem is solved. Theosis solves all of mans problems as he is healed of his damaged psyche.
 

Eternally Grateful

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Indeed you are correct. But the ones who really do achieve it have a definite testimony of their entry into it. They all go through a really terrible period 'in the wilderness' where they are stripped of all things and become humble. It is clear that the ones who are deceived do not have this humbleness of soul and think themselves above others. They do not have the fruit. That is of no concern to us. Unfortunately it is rare to find this day.
I think we can be decieved and think we have entered it.

thats why our focus should be on the one above. not on ourselves
 
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Eternally Grateful

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Absolutely. Many do that. Our focus IS on Christ when we desire complete union with Him.
I agree. thats what me means when he shared the law of love. and later through paul seek the things of the spirit.

We can not have complete union with him while we are not doing these things..

of course. if we are not his children. we can;t do these things. so that becomes the second issue
 

marks

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@marks, there is definitely a great deal of wrong teaching about sinlessness, bad examples, and a great prejudice due to the holiness movement errors. That is why I quote the early church on it. Of course there were those at that time who opposed it and also in the NT, but the positive teaching is intact and much richer than that found later in the west. I do wish we could have the sort of discussion you espouse.

But do we think fleshy things? That is included in holiness and how can a man control what comes from his heart?
Yes, I agree, the answer is in the heart. I believe that in our rebirth we are recreated by God sharing His nature, and that we are free from sinful desires, and filled with love for others, in our new man. But I also think that we are so used to living the kind of life of the old man that we have a difficult time both recognizing the old man when that's what we're doing, and can have a diffucult time "seeing" what the new man life should look like.

I think that were we to entirely live in our new man, that we would not be doing fleshy things, that is, not sinning.

Ephesians 4:20-24 KJV
20) But ye have not so learned Christ;
21) If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
22) That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
23) And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
24) And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

I think it's really this simple. That we have the Adamic nature inherited from Adam, and we have God's nature received in Christ. We are used to living in the Adamic nature, and we have the full force of our flesh to push us that way. Meanwhile we have God's Holy Spirit teaching us and training us to reject the flesh, and walk in the Spirit.

But after this simplicity is the matter of flesh versus Spirit, and what is God's program for me? We all have different degrees of damage, and God is working with us in different ways.

I've deleted my first 5 or 6 attempts to respond to you, it's hard to know what direction to go. How shall we approach this?

Much love!