The 144,000 before God at the end.

[ewq1938]

The are certainly of the twelve tribes of Israel.

However, I know it looks like they are sealed to go through the wrath of God and are on earth at the 5th trumpet , but they are off the earth BEFORE the Great Tribulation.

No reason to seal them if they are just going to be removed. Obviously the sealing is to protect them from something very serious. Since they are sealed prior to the trib, it's clear the seal is to protect them during the trib. The entire church goes through the trib.

 

[David in NJ]

No reason to seal them if they are just going to be removed. Obviously the sealing is to protect them from something very serious. Since they are sealed prior to the trib, it's clear the seal is to protect them during the trib. The entire church goes through the trib.

Do not be stumped by Revelation chapter 14 which is about His Body.

We who belong to Christ all receive the seal when we are Saved.

Nevertheless, God’s firm foundation stands, bearing this seal: “The Lord knows those who are His,” and, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord must turn away from iniquity.”

Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal.”

Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God, who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.

In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.

Now He who prepared us for this very purpose is God, who gave to us the Spirit as a pledge.

Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

 

[The Light]

No reason to seal them if they are just going to be removed.

The Church is sealed and they do not go through the tribulation or wrath of God.
The 144,000 are sealed and are the first fruits of the second harvest at the 6th seal
Those that are harvested at the 6th seal are not going through the wrath of God.

No one that is sealed goes through the wrath of God as we are not appointed to wrath.

Obviously the sealing is to protect them from something very serious.

Well.........no. The sealing occurs when they are born again and has nothing to do with physical protection in Gods warth.

Since they are sealed prior to the trib,

They are not sealed before the tribulation. They are sealed and raptured from the earth before the Great Tribulation

it's clear the seal is to protect them during the trib. The entire church goes through the trib.

The Church is raptured before the seals are opened. The 144,000 are sealed and raptured to heaven before the great tribulation. None of these go through the wrath of God.

 

[The Light]

The numbers found in the book of The Revelation are symbolic.

There is nothing symbolic about the 7 seals, the 7 trumpets or the 7 vials.

A thousand years symbolizes time given the universal Church on earth to build the spiritual Kingdom of God through the proclamation of the Gospel.

Christ sets up His physical kingdom on earth.

To prove this is a literal number or ONE thousand literal years, you would have to prove the mention of numbers found elsewhere in The Revelation are also literal. I don't believe you can do that, because this particular epistle is replete with symbolism.

Where do you come up with this stuff. It is a millennial kingdom. Christ sets up this kingdom at the 7th trumpet.

You know that and that is why you won't answer whether or not you view the great red dragon of Rev 12 to be literal or symbolic.

Why would I not answer that? The red dragon is Satan. You don't believe that?????????

You know it symbolically represents Satan, but to admit that you would have to admit the 144,000 symbolically represent the Old Covenant remnant of faithful saints as She existed before the first advent of Christ.

Get out. The red dragon is Satan..............PERIOD. The 144,000 ARE NOT SYMBOLIC. The only you think they are symbolic is because your doctrine cannot find the Church on earth so they have to make something up.

The 144,000 are exactly 144,000 from twelve tribes of Israel. This is a literal number and they are literally in heaven as first fruits.

If the 144,000 was the Church, what are they doing in heaven before the Great Tribulation???????????????????

You have no understanding what you are reading. You will never understand until you accept what is written without making up a bunch of baloney.

 

[covenantee]

You have no understanding what you are reading. You will never understand until you accept what is written without making up a bunch of baloney.

It is baloney exclusively to the natural man, who is spiritually blind and incapable of spiritual discernment. 1 Corinthians 2:14

It is a number gloriously encapsulating the meaning of the number of those who have been redeemed into the glorious Church of God through the ages.

It is understood only by those of spiritual discernment.

No bearer of false witness could ever begin to comprehend it.

 

[The Light]

It is baloney exclusively to the natural man, who is spiritually blind and incapable of spiritual discernment. 1 Corinthians 2:14

It is a number gloriously encapsulating the meaning of the number of those who have entered the glorious Church of God through the ages.

It is understood only by those of spiritual discernment.

No bearer of false witness could ever begin to comprehend it.

What false witness are you referring to? It seems you have to resort to name calling because your understanding of the Word is limited.

 

[covenantee]

What false witness are you referring to? It seems you have to resort to name calling because your understanding of the Word is limited.

Is your memory that poor?

 

[ewq1938]

The Church is sealed and they do not go through the tribulation or wrath of God.

They do go through the trib. The trib cannot even exist without the church to give tribulation to.

The 144,000 are sealed and are the first fruits of the second harvest at the 6th seal
Those that are harvested at the 6th seal are not going through the wrath of God.

Christians can't go through God's wrath. Not a single person believes that so you are making that up as a strawman fallacy.

No one that is sealed goes through the wrath of God as we are not appointed to wrath.

We are appointed to the wrath of satan which comes as tribulation.

They are not sealed before the tribulation. They are sealed and raptured from the earth before the Great Tribulation

The Church is raptured before the seals are opened. The 144,000 are sealed and raptured to heaven before the great tribulation. None of these go through the wrath of God.

"They are not sealed before the tribulation."

contradicts other things you said:

" They are sealed and raptured from the earth before the Great Tribulation"

"The 144,000 are sealed and raptured to heaven before the great tribulation."



You contradict yourself because you do not understand the order of events. The truth is the 144k ARE sealed BEFORE the tribulation, but they are NOT raptured before the tribulation. No one is.

 

[The Light]

Is your memory that poor?

I think I was so busy laughing when you called me a loser, I didn't pay much attention to anything else.

 

[The Light]

They do go through the trib. The trib cannot even exist without the church to give tribulation to.

I guess you haven't realized that the 70th week of Daniel is about the people of Daniel.

Christians can't go through God's wrath. Not a single person believes that so you are making that up as a strawman fallacy.

And yet you have the Church going through the trumpets of wrath and you can't figure out that Christ sets up His kingdom at the 7th trumpet.

We are appointed to the wrath of satan which comes as tribulation.

No, the Church can escape all these things that will come to pass. It is the seed of the woman, the twelve tribes across the earth that go through the great tribulation and are raptrured at the 6th seal.

"They are not sealed before the tribulation."

contradicts other things you said:

" They are sealed and raptured from the earth before the Great Tribulation"

"The 144,000 are sealed and raptured to heaven before the great tribulation."

Maybe this will help.............They are not sealed BEFORE the tribulation begins but they are sealed before the Great Tribulation.

You contradict yourself because you do not understand the order of events. The truth is the 144k ARE sealed BEFORE the tribulation, but they are NOT raptured before the tribulation. No one is.

According to the Word of God.............Revelation 14........the 144,000 are sealed before the great tribulation. It just comes down to you having no idea what you are reading.

Tribulation is over at the 6th seal. Wrath is over at the 7th trumpet when Christ sets up His kingdom on earth. Why you are unable to understand this simple concept is unknown. Some have eyes to see and some don't.
.

 

[covenantee]

I think I was so busy laughing when you called me a loser, I didn't pay much attention to anything else.

Yes, the 9th commandment certainly is laughable.

 

[The Light]

Yes, the 9th commandment certainly is laughable.

I am unaware of what you are talking about. All I heard from you is a bunch of personal attacks. That always happens when scripture is used to prove what you are saying is wrong. All you do is make things up by spiritualizing the Word of God that does not agree with your doctrine.

 

[ewq1938]

And yet you have the Church going through the trumpets of wrath and you can't figure out that Christ sets up His kingdom at the 7th trumpet.

The trumpets are not called trumpets of wrath. You have named them that on your own. Also, everyone knows Christ sets up his kingdom at the 7th. That is a strawman fallacy you use, one of many. You are the one who refuses to accept that the bible says the 7th trump is when the wrath of God comes. You are the one in error and denial.

Maybe this will help.............They are not sealed BEFORE the tribulation begins but they are sealed before the Great Tribulation.

Tribulation or great tribulation is speaking of the same 42 month period prior to the second coming.

According to the Word of God.............Revelation 14........the 144,000 are sealed before the great tribulation. It just comes down to you having no idea what you are reading.

Tribulation is over at the 6th seal. Wrath is over at the 7th trumpet when Christ sets up His kingdom on earth. Why you are unable to understand this simple concept is unknown. Some have eyes to see and some don't.
.

You are wrong though, very clearly wrong. You speak of eyes that cannot see and you make these non-scriptural claims. Trib is not over at the 6th seal. It hasn't even started yet. Wrath is not over at the 7th trump. The bible says it comes (starts) at the 7th trump. It's you that does not have eyes to see which is why you say the opposite of what the bible says.

 

[covenantee]

I am unaware of what you are talking about. All I heard from you is a bunch of personal attacks. That always happens when scripture is used to prove what you are saying is wrong. All you do is make things up by spiritualizing the Word of God that does not agree with your doctrine.

False witness begets continued false witness to attempt to cover previous false witness.

You're familiar with the process.

Here's help for your unawareness.

 

[The Light]

The trumpets are not called trumpets of wrath. You have named them that on your own. Also, everyone knows Christ sets up his kingdom at the 7th. That is a strawman fallacy you use, one of many. You are the one who refuses to accept that the bible says the 7th trump is when the wrath of God comes. You are the one in error and denial.

That's puzzling. Suddenly you want to agree that Christ sets up His kingdom at the 7th trumpet, but somehow you don't think wrath has begun. Wow. If Christ has set up His kingdom, Armageddon is already over. Simple logic.

Tribulation or great tribulation is speaking of the same 42 month period prior to the second coming.

Impossible. The tribulation begins when the seals are opened. They are not yet open. 42 months is 3.5 years. The final week is 7 years. Tribulation is over at the 6th seal. Are the 42 months complete?

You are wrong though, very clearly wrong. You speak of eyes that cannot see and you make these non-scriptural claims. Trib is not over at the 6th seal.

Try to use some simple logic. The Tribulation is over at the 6th seal, It's marked by the signs of the sun, moon and stars. How is it possible that you cannot see this. The logic is as simple as it gets.

6TH SEAL...........SUN, MOON, STARS.............IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION.

Rev 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

Matthew 24

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

The tribulation is over at the 6th seal. Then the seventh seal is opened and wrath begins when the 1st trumpet sounds.

It hasn't even started yet. Wrath is not over at the 7th trump.

Christ sets up His kingdom at the 7th trumpet. Armageddon is over. Wrath is over. When you are reading Revelation 13 and 14 you are back in seals. Revelation 6 thru Revelation 16 reads like Genesis 7. How many floods are there? How many times are the animals and Noah and his family loaded onto the ark? You need to understand what you are reading.

The bible says it comes (starts) at the 7th trump. It's you that does not have eyes to see which is why you say the opposite of what the bible says.

This is simple logic. How are you missing these things?

 

[The Light]

False witness begets continued false witness to attempt to cover previous false witness.

You're familiar with the process.

Here's help for your unawareness.

Thanks for clearing this up.

Do not you claim that the 144,000 is the Church or am I in error?

 

[covenantee]

Thanks for clearing this up.

Do not you claim that the 144,000 is the Church or am I in error?

You're welcome.

The 144,000 represent all redeemed faithful obedient saints through the ages. The single best descriptive word is "Church".

 

[ewq1938]

That's puzzling. Suddenly you want to agree that Christ sets up His kingdom at the 7th trumpet, but somehow you don't think wrath has begun. Wow. If Christ has set up His kingdom, Armageddon is already over. Simple logic.

That is faulty logic...not logic at all actually. Armageddon happens after the 7th trump, only after all kingdoms become his. Then all is left is to pour wrath, and defeat at Armageddon then the Millennium can begin.

Try to use some simple logic. The Tribulation is over at the 6th seal, It's marked by the signs of the sun, moon and stars. How is it possible that you cannot see this. The logic is as simple as it gets.

Your logic is not valid. You cannot see that the seals are only info about the future.

6TH SEAL...........SUN, MOON, STARS.............IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION.

Rev 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

Matthew 24

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

The tribulation is over at the 6th seal. Then the seventh seal is opened and wrath begins when the 1st trumpet sounds.



Christ sets up His kingdom at the 7th trumpet. Armageddon is over. Wrath is over. When you are reading Revelation 13 and 14 you are back in seals. Revelation 6 thru Revelation 16 reads like Genesis 7. How many floods are there? How many times are the animals and Noah and his family loaded onto the ark? You need to understand what you are reading.


This is simple logic. How are you missing these things?

My understanding is greater than simplistic recognition of the same events. Both are prophecy. Neither are the events actually happening yet.

 

[rebuilder 454]

There is no door for the trib. You either "escape" through apostasia/apostasy which means you will suffer the wrath of God, or you spiritually escape the temptations of the trib and you are killed, or survive and are those who are raptured after the trib.




Christ is not coming before the seals, or during the seals and it's been almost 2000 years since the seals were opened and he hasn't yet returned.

Raptured at the second coming on white horses?

 

[rebuilder 454]

You're welcome.

The 144,000 represent all redeemed faithful obedient saints through the ages. The single best descriptive word is "Church".

What tribe are you from?