The 144,000 before God at the end.

[PinSeeker]

Yes, but the age to come for the faithful begins in heaven when we are born again of His Spirit in us.

Disagree. We are still awaiting the age to come (eternity), but we know where we will be then, and we can live as if we are there now, because it is an absolute certainty.

Then when we physically die, our spirit alive, a living soul returns to God in heaven.

Sure.

The 144,000 are the first to ascend to heaven a living spiritual body, so the 144,000 comes at the beginning of the age to come after the resurrection and ascension of Christ to heaven.

So it seems ~ but perhaps I am misunderstanding you ~ that you believe in an absolutely literal 144,000 also? If so, I disagree with this, too.

As I have said before, the number of the sealed comes to 12,000 for each tribe, and the balanced numbering suggests that 12 is a symbolic number for the fullness of the people of God. Some think (as we have seen in this thread and others) that the 144,000 includes only Jewish believers. But “servants of our God” in 7:3 must include Gentile saints as well. So Revelation 7:1-8 emphasizes the Israelite heritage of the New Testament people of God, and Revelation 7:9-17 emphasizes their international character. Both parts of Revelation 7 have in view the same group of people, In the latter, they are a great multitude … from every nation, tribe, people, and language, fulfilling the promise to Abraham that all the peoples on earth would be blessed through him (Genesis 12:3; 17:5).

Grace and peace to you, RWB.

 

[The Light]

Nope.
They are ethnic Jews sealed against the flying scorpions. Resurrected spirits are not able to be stung.

The are certainly of the twelve tribes of Israel.

However, I know it looks like they are sealed to go through the wrath of God and are on earth at the 5th trumpet , but they are off the earth BEFORE the Great Tribulation.

This we can prove.

 

[The Light]

I well understand your thoughts. :)

Grace and peace to you.

You're the first...........LOL

And Grace and Peace to you also.

 

[PinSeeker]

You're the first...........LOL

I highly doubt that. :) And understanding your thoughts does not necessarily mean agreement. :)

Grace and peace to you.

 

[rwb]

Disagree. We are still awaiting the age to come (eternity), but we know where we will be then, and we can live as if we are there now, because it is an absolute certainty.

I agree we are still awaiting the age to come physically! But through His Spirit we have a down payment, or earnest of the age to come spiritually when we are born again. Spiritually speaking we have entered into the Kingdom of God even while we physically live. That's why Christ says whosoever lives and believes in Him shall never die. Through His Spirit in our spirit, our spirit returns to God alive after our body dies, then the age to come is ours spiritually and shall be ours physically when the last trumpet sounds.

Ephesians 1:13-14 (KJV) In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

So it seems ~ but perhaps I am misunderstanding you ~ that you believe in an absolutely literal 144,000 also? If so, I disagree with this, too.

As I have said before, the number of the sealed comes to 12,000 for each tribe, and the balanced numbering suggests that 12 is a symbolic number for the fullness of the people of God. Some think (as we have seen in this thread and others) that the 144,000 includes only Jewish believers. But “servants of our God” in 7:3 must include Gentile saints as well. So Revelation 7:1-8 emphasizes the Israelite heritage of the New Testament people of God, and Revelation 7:9-17 emphasizes their international character. Both parts of Revelation 7 have in view the same group of people, In the latter, they are a great multitude … from every nation, tribe, people, and language, fulfilling the promise to Abraham that all the peoples on earth would be blessed through him (Genesis 12:3; 17:5).

No, I don't believe the 144,000 is a literal number from all the tribes of the children of Israel. I believe this number symbolically represents the faithful Church as She existed from Old. The number symbolizes how only and elect remnant of Old Covenant Israel were saved. These are those of Old who believed what was written in the Law and Prophets of the Messiah who would come to save them. They will join the innumerable throng of saints (New Covenant Church with the Old) later shown as being from every nation, tribe, kindred and tongue throughout the world.

The distinction between the Old and New Covenant people is to show these Old Covenant faithful saints (Church of Old) are the firstfruits of the Lord spiritually. Just as they were the firstfruits of Old to believe according to grace through faith. Scripture speaks of faithful saints of the first century were also a "kind" of firstfruit of the Spirit. They of the first century AD were the first to have the Spirit IN them while still physically alive. The first to be born again through the resurrection of Christ, Who is the "first resurrection."

James 1:18 (KJV) Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

John writes in Rev 14 that the 144,000 were the firstfruits of God and of the Lamb. And Jeremiah says Israel are the firstfruits of His increase.

Revelation 14:4 (KJV) These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

Jeremiah 2:3 (KJV) Israel was holiness unto the LORD, and the firstfruits of his increase: all that devour him shall offend; evil shall come upon them, saith the LORD.

We're far closer in understanding the 144,000 then we are apart.

Grace and peace to you as well!

 

[rwb]

The are certainly of the twelve tribes of Israel.

However, I know it looks like they are sealed to go through the wrath of God and are on earth at the 5th trumpet , but they are off the earth BEFORE the Great Tribulation.

This we can prove.

If you can biblically prove what you allege, why haven't you???

 

[PinSeeker]

I agree we are still awaiting the age to come physically!

Good. But spiritually, too; it is what it is... will be what it will be. I mean I think you agree...

Spiritually speaking we have entered into the Kingdom of God even while we physically live.

Sure. But eternity is the age to come, as opposed to the present age.

No, I don't believe the 144,000 is a literal number...

Good. I mean it's a literal number, woodenly speaking, but in the context of John's Revelation denotes completeness and fullness, and is symbolic of the completeness, the full number of God's elect, which is far, far more than 144,000. With which you agree; good.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[The Light]

I highly doubt that. :) And understanding your thoughts does not necessarily mean agreement. :)

Grace and peace to you.

Oh, I knew you didn't agree, as I have read some of your other posts.

But if you followed my line of thought you would be the first. And I find that quite strange as I have no need to make anything up. I just read what it says and that's what I believe. :cool:

 

[The Light]

If you can biblically prove what you allege, why haven't you???

I have.

Do you understand the wrath of God is over at the 7th trumpet?

 

[The Light]

No, I don't believe the 144,000 is a literal number from all the tribes of the children of Israel. I believe this number symbolically represents the faithful Church as She existed from Old. The number symbolizes how only and elect remnant of Old Covenant Israel were saved.

God goes to a lot of trouble to tell you it's a literal number and yet you do not believe.

The reason you don't believe is that your doctrine needs the Church to be on earth during the tribulation because you can't see that the Church is already in heaven before the seals are opened. That usually means that you think the seals are already open.........but don't let me put words in your mouth, that's just usually the case.

 

[PinSeeker]

I just read what it says and that's what I believe. :cool:

Sure, well, that's what everyone here would say. ;)

Grace and peace to you.

 

[covenantee]

Why do you guys go to the low ground with your personal attacks???
What a shame

So you think that a bearer of false witness is a winner.

 

[David in NJ]

Where in Ro 11 does Paul clearly express that blindness in part shall be lifted after the fullness of Gentiles have come in?

How are these words of Christ a confirmation that blindness in part shall be lifted? I read where Christ, speaking to Jerusalem tells them "Behold, your house is left unto you desolate"?

Matthew 23:37-39 (KJV) O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

If these unrepentant Jews died without saying "Blessed is He that cometh in the name of the Lord", they died in unbelief and are therefore lost forever. Today is the day of salvation. Now, since Christ has come is the time for hearing His Gospel proclaimed in the power of His Spirit, and all who believe will say "Blessed be the name of the Lord"! This passage in no way proves that blindness in part happening to Israel shall be lifted after the last of the Gentiles have come in.

Paul says, "that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in." Then he writes, "And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written". If Paul is telling us that blindness in part for ethnic Israel shall be lifted after the fullness of Gentiles have come in, why does Paul tell us all Israel can only be saved through the inclusion of Gentiles? Paul writes this so that we might understand that "all Israel" written here cannot be ethnically Israel or he would not write they won't be saved until the fullness of Gentiles completes them. Paul writes this so that we might know that "all Israel" to be saved are the "Israel of God" which are neither Jews of faith alone, nor Gentiles of faith alone, but together the two are "all Israel" made up of people of faith from every nation of the world. No longer Jew or Gentile, but Israel of God where circumcision avails nothing, nor uncircumcision. The two become ONE . And ALL of that Israel shall be saved after the last Gentile comes in to complete the spiritual Kingdom of God. After that the seventh trumpet shall sound that time given this earth for people to be saved shall be no longer.

"For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord."

Do you not understand this victorious declaration of our LORD and to whom HE made this promise to?

 

[rwb]

Good. But spiritually, too; it is what it is... will be what it will be. I mean I think you agree...

Spiritually after physical death.

Sure. But eternity is the age to come, as opposed to the present age.

Agree.

Peace and blessings

 

[PinSeeker]

Spiritually after physical death.

I'm really not sure what you're saying, here, RWB. But we can leave it at that; I don't want you to feel like I'm... hounding you or something. :)

We are all spiritually alive now ~ us Christians, anyway ~ because we have been born again of the Holy Spirit, and we are awaiting Christ's return and the age to come. When we physically die ~ if we physically die before Christ returns ~ our spirits will no longer be here on earth but with Him, but still awaiting the age to come. I'm... really not sure if you're agreeing with that or not, but it's not of great importance, I guess. :)

Grace and peace to you.

 

[rwb]

I have.

Do you understand the wrath of God is over at the 7th trumpet?

When the last (seventh) trumpet begins to sound, time given this earth for being saved shall be no longer. That time is symbolized a thousand years. That is when Satan is loosed for a little season, and that little season quickly ends with the wrath of God by fire coming down out of heaven to burn up whosoever is still alive on this earth at that time. Believers that are still alive at the end of the thousand years shall be caught up to heaven to meet the Lord in the air, and then shall be an hour coming when the thousand years have expired when all of the dead shall be resurrected from the graves. Those having done good, resurrected immortal & incorruptible, and those having done evil resurrected to damnation. That is the wrath of God by all-consuming fire that the saints shall not be part of, but the saints must go through "great tribulation" that began with the first advent of Christ and will last until time shall be no longer.

 

[rwb]

God goes to a lot of trouble to tell you it's a literal number and yet you do not believe.

The reason you don't believe is that your doctrine needs the Church to be on earth during the tribulation because you can't see that the Church is already in heaven before the seals are opened. That usually means that you think the seals are already open.........but don't let me put words in your mouth, that's just usually the case.

The numbers found in the book of The Revelation are symbolic. A thousand years symbolizes time given the universal Church on earth to build the spiritual Kingdom of God through the proclamation of the Gospel. To prove this is a literal number or ONE thousand literal years, you would have to prove the mention of numbers found elsewhere in The Revelation are also literal. I don't believe you can do that, because this particular epistle is replete with symbolism. You know that and that is why you won't answer whether or not you view the great red dragon of Rev 12 to be literal or symbolic. You know it symbolically represents Satan, but to admit that you would have to admit the 144,000 symbolically represent the Old Covenant remnant of faithful saints as She existed before the first advent of Christ.

 

[rwb]

"For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord."

Do you not understand this victorious declaration of our LORD and to whom HE made this promise to?

Jesus is saying You shall not know or understand (see) Me from this moment until you can say, Blessed is He that cometh in the name of the Lord. He is not saying when they see Him with physical eyes and can say .......

Christ is speaking to those who refuse to acknowledge who He is and from Whom He was sent. They had the Law and Prophets and should have known and been able to say...blessed to Him, but they refused Him and until they acknowledge Who He is they are left a desolation unto the Lord.

 

[rwb]

I'm really not sure what you're saying, here, RWB. But we can leave it at that; I don't want you to feel like I'm... hounding you or something. :)

We are all spiritually alive now ~ us Christians, anyway ~ because we have been born again of the Holy Spirit, and we are awaiting Christ's return and the age to come. When we physically die ~ if we physically die before Christ returns ~ our spirits will no longer be here on earth but with Him, but still awaiting the age to come. I'm... really not sure if you're agreeing with that or not, but it's not of great importance, I guess. :)

Grace and peace to you.

All I'm saying is that the spiritual life we have through His Spirit in us is ETERNAL and our spirit can never die. We don't have to wait until we physically die to enter the Kingdom of God spiritually, because we know and enter the Kingdom when we are born again of His Spirit. Since we have eternal spiritual life through His Spirit, we have assurance that heaven shall be ours (spiritual body) when our physical body breathes its last, because the Spirit will not leave us until we are physically resurrected immortal & incorruptible. So in one sense I agree we will not be a complete living soul with body + spirit, fit for the age to come until our physical resurrection. But as we agree believers have already entered into the Kingdom of God that shall come down out of heaven prepared as a bride adorned for her Husband. We are not yet wholly in the age to come, but we most assuredly are in the age to come through His Spirit in us, because our spirit shall never die.

Grace and peace to you

 

[David in NJ]

Jesus is saying You shall not know or understand (see) Me from this moment until you can say, Blessed is He that cometh in the name of the Lord. He is not saying when they see Him with physical eyes and can say .......

Christ is speaking to those who refuse to acknowledge who He is and from Whom He was sent. They had the Law and Prophets and should have known and been able to say...blessed to Him, but they refused Him and until they acknowledge Who He is they are left a desolation unto the Lord.

Read Zechariah