The 144,000 before God at the end.

[Hobie]

We have things becoming very clear and unveiling right before our eyes in these last days, so lets take a look at those who will be standing before God as the 144,000..

“1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.”Revelation 14:1-5.

Now those who stand at the end while Christ still intercedes for us in the Most Holy Place will need to like Him. Christ kept His Father's commandments, and there was no sin in Him that Satan could use to his advantage. This is the condition in which those must be found who shall stand in the end

So we have a world who are not all Gods people, composed of two groups, the true followers of God and then the others whose hearts and minds are not cleansed and not ready for Christ, this is the church militant. So there are those on the side of Satan will be left out and will perish, and the people who are His, sealed and prepared to go with Christ to His kingdowm.

We find in 2 Corinthians 1:21-23

“21 Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God;22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts”

So the saints throughout the ages have been sealed, and yet those who are the 144,000 also need to be sealed as they prepare for the coming of the Lord. Now is the time to prepare, not at when its too late and Christ has appeared and probation closed. The seal of God needs to be put on His people before the Second Coming, but some think they can continue in sin and iniquity till Christ comes.

Hebrews describes the role of Jesus as our mediator in heaven. We read in John 16:25-27..

“25 These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father.26 At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you:27 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.”

So a time will come when Jesus will not pray to the Father on our behalf, because we will know that “the Father himself loves us.” In John 16, Jesus promises us a time will come when we won’t have a mediator because we won’t need one for those that truly know and love Christ. So the 144,000 are sealed and alive at the Second Coming and stand without a mediator, but then why only 144,000. I think we can find that answer in the following verse, Daniel 12:1...

"And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book." Daniel 12:1.

The time of trouble such as never was will be devastating, and many even of the saints will not live through it and be put to sleep in the grave during this time. It is the living saints who are the 144,000 at the end, while those saints asleep in Christ who are sealed, will be brought up in the clouds to be taken to heaven.

 

[Hobie]

So lets look even more, lets scratch below the surface. The 144,000 are living at the end of time when Jesus comes. Also, all of these saints the Bible tells us, will have the seal of God on their foreheads.

"After these things I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, on the sea, or on any tree. Then I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God. And he cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, saying, "Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads." And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed:" Revelation 7:1-4

We see that the 144,000 are sealed just before the winds of strife hit the earth at the end of time. The four angels are holding back the four winds of the earth so they cannot harm the earth etc., until God's servants are sealed on their foreheads. So, it is clear that the 144,000 are God's people living at the time of the end in the time of trouble. It is also clear that the 144,000 will need this sealing in order to survive the trouble of the last days. That is why it is so urgent that they receive God's seal and its why the angels are holding off the trouble until they are protected.

But who are these people, lets read further to understand:

"And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealedf the tribe of Judah twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Gad twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Asher twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Simeon twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Levi twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Issachar twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Benjamin twelve thousand were sealed." Revelation 7:4-8

So it might seem only the Israelites will be found in this group. But, there is a problem with this idea. Many of these tribes no longer exist. Gad, Asher, Naphtali, Manasseh, and Simeon were lost when they were forced to leave their land.

"Now the king of Assyria went throughout all the land, and went up to Samaria and besieged it for three years. In the ninth year of Hoshea, the king of Assyria took Samaria and carried Israel away to Assyria, and placed them in Halah and by the Habor, the River of Gozan, and in the cities of the Medes." 2 Kings 17:5-6
"Therefore the LORD was very angry with Israel, and removed them from His sight; there was none left but the tribe of Judah alone." 2 Kings 17:18

In Revelation we see listed 12 tribes of Israel out of which they were to come and we realize that this has to be symbolic because even in John’s time most of those tribes no longer existed and certainly they do not today. Samaria, the northern 10 tribes, were moved to various places and they intermarried with other groups and thus they no longer exist. So, how could the 144,000 be numbered from tribes that no longer exist?

In addition we find that the probation of the Jews as a nation had been passed.

"Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof." Matthew 21:43
The kingdom of God has been taken from them and given to others. Paul adds to this idea:

"For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry,...And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you." Romans 11:13, 17-18

In God's kingdom, there is neither Jew nor Greek:

"For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." Galatians 3:27-29

If we have been baptized into Christ, we will have put on Christ. Which makes us Abraham's seed. Thus, we are heirs according to the promise because there is neither Jew nor Greek. We have been grafted in. So yes, we can be included into the 144,000 even if we are not Jews because we have become Abraham's seed.

"For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh;but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God." Romans 2:28-29

A true Jew is one who is inwardly a Jew where the Spirit of God is in the Heart. God seeks true conviction and true repentance from each of us.

"Then he said to the multitudes that came out to be baptized by him, "Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? "Therefore bear fruits worthy of repentance, and do not begin to say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father.' For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones. "And even now the ax is laid to the root of the trees. Therefore every tree which does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire." Luke 3:7-9

God can make children of Abraham out of stones. But He has chosen to make children of Abraham from those of us who have good fruit. But He throws into the fire those who have not repented of their sins.

"You will say then, "Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in." Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again." Romans 11:19-23

Because of unbelief God's original people were broken off. However, anyone can be grafted in again if they get rid of their unbelief. So, it is easy to see that God keeps holding the door open for all of us to go in. As long as there is time to repent and get the gift of eternal life, He will continually give us a choice to again be connected with Him.

"Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near: Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon." Isaiah 55:6-7

Its clear that God wants His people to fully believe and to act out their faith in repentance. He wants true repentance from each of us. These will be the living saints at the end who will be sealed and Christ comes to redeem them at the Second Coming.

 

[Keraz]

Much controversy surrounds the 144.000. Who are they and what do they do?

Revelation 7:1-8 sets an earthly scene and says that 12,000 will come from each of the 12 tribes of Israel. This is immediately followed by verses 9-14, telling about a huge crowd of people from every tribe, race, nation and language, who have just passed through a great ordeal.

This ordeal is logically and literally; the just previous, Sixth Seal worldwide disaster, that will destroy the attackers of Israel, as well as the ungodly Israelis. Many prophesies tell us that all of the holy Land will be cleared and cleansed at that time, in preparation for the establishment of a righteous nation there. Isaiah 62:1-5
A people who will be God’s witnesses, Isaiah 43:10, John 15:27 and His Light to the nations. Isaiah 49:8, Matthew 5:14-16

Revelation 14:1-5 also tells us about the 144,000. The Lord stands on Mt Zion and they are with Him. John then sees a flying angel, who is loudly proclaiming the Gospel throughout the earth.

We know that Bible prophecy is a little here, a little there, so to gain more understanding on this subject, we look at Isaiah 66:15-17, where it says the Lord will judge with fire and many will be killed by Him. 2 Peter 3:7, plainly says that a fire Judgment is coming.

After that, He will gather His people, as many prophesies clearly state; Ezekiel 34:11-16, Isaiah 35:1-10, Jeremiah 23:3-4, +

Isaiah 66:18b-21 They are people from every nation, coming on every means of transport, a huge number of people, Jeremiah 31:8-9, some of whom, God will put a sign on and will send to the nations to proclaim His Glory . The 144,000



From these and other Bible prophesies, we are told that the Lord will correct the current situation of having ungodly people in His holy Land. Jeremiah 12:14 says He will uproot all of them and it will be only the righteous believers who will live there. Psalms 37:9-29, Isaiah 35, Isaiah 62:1-5, Romans 9:24-26
Therefore, the sequence is: a soon to happen Day of disaster for the world and all who stood firm in their faith and called out to the Lord for His protection, will go to live in all of the holy Land. Psalms 107 and Isaiah 66:18b-21 tells about that great second Exodus.
There: soon after the fiery Judgement, the Lord will be revealed to them, as 2 Thessalonians 1:4b-10 exactly states. Also Revelation 14:1

He will stand on Mt Zion, in Jerusalem and all the people will be divided into 12 groups according to their family characteristics. From each of them, He will select 12,000 young men, who will go out in pairs to proclaim the coming Kingdom of Jesus. The ‘angel’ of Revelation 14:6-7 is symbolic for them and Luke 10:1-10 is the precursor.

There will be more trials and testing for those people, as prophesied, but it will not be more than 20 years, before Jesus Returns to commence His Millennium reign.

 

[David in NJ]

We have things becoming very clear and unveiling right before our eyes in these last days, so lets take a look at those who will be standing before God as the 144,000..

“1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.”Revelation 14:1-5.

Now those who stand at the end while Christ still intercedes for us in the Most Holy Place will need to like Him. Christ kept His Father's commandments, and there was no sin in Him that Satan could use to his advantage. This is the condition in which those must be found who shall stand in the end

So we have a world who are not all Gods people, composed of two groups, the true followers of God and then the others whose hearts and minds are not cleansed and not ready for Christ, this is the church militant. So there are those on the side of Satan will be left out and will perish, and the people who are His, sealed and prepared to go with Christ to His kingdowm.

We find in 2 Corinthians 1:21-23

“21 Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God;22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts”

So the saints throughout the ages have been sealed, and yet those who are the 144,000 also need to be sealed as they prepare for the coming of the Lord. Now is the time to prepare, not at when its too late and Christ has appeared and probation closed. The seal of God needs to be put on His people before the Second Coming, but some think they can continue in sin and iniquity till Christ comes.

Hebrews describes the role of Jesus as our mediator in heaven. We read in John 16:25-27..

“25 These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father.26 At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you:27 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.”

So a time will come when Jesus will not pray to the Father on our behalf, because we will know that “the Father himself loves us.” In John 16, Jesus promises us a time will come when we won’t have a mediator because we won’t need one for those that truly know and love Christ. So the 144,000 are sealed and alive at the Second Coming and stand without a mediator, but then why only 144,000. I think we can find that answer in the following verse, Daniel 12:1...

"And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book." Daniel 12:1.

The time of trouble such as never was will be devastating, and many even of the saints will not live through it and be put to sleep in the grave during this time. It is the living saints who are the 144,000 at the end, while those saints asleep in Christ who are sealed, will be brought up in the clouds to be taken to heaven.

144,000 is symbolic of the Body of Christ

 

[Keraz]

144,000 is symbolic of the Body of Christ

Symbolized by 12,000 faithful virgin Christians selected out of each of the twelve tribes of Israel, who are at present still in dispersion around the world. God knows who they are; Amos 9:9
They will go out to all the nations and will proclaim the coming Kingdom. Isaiah 66:19

 

[David in NJ]

Symbolized by 12,000 faithful virgin Christians selected out of each of the twelve tribes of Israel, who are at present still in dispersion around the world. God knows who they are; Amos 9:9
They will go out to all the nations and will proclaim the coming Kingdom. Isaiah 66:19

Which Israel?

 

[Keraz]

Which Israel?

The true Israelites of God His faithful believers in Him and who accept the salvation of Jesus The peoples from every tribe, race, nation and language. John sees them gathered in all of the holy Land. Revelation 7:9

NOT the fake Israelis, who reject Jesus and are mostly atheists. Romans 2:27 states this clearly.

 

[Jay Ross]

The true Israelites of God His faithful believers in Him and who accept the salvation of Jesus The peoples from every tribe, race, nation and language. John sees them gathered in all of the holy Land. Revelation 7:9

A false claim Keraz on your part. The Holy Land is not mentioned in Revelation 7:9. However, the great multitude of the saints we are told are assembled in the Throne room of God.

Rev 7:9-10: - 9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10 and crying out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!”

It is your construct that all of the assemble saints are gathered in all of the Holy Land, based, as you claim, on Rev 7:9.

Are we really told in the scriptures that the GWTR will be in the Holy Land during the GWTR judgement? However, after the conclusion of the final judgement we are told that the New Jerusalem will come down out of heaven and the earth will be refurbished like new again.

Shalom

 

[Patrick1966]

The true Israelites of God His faithful believers in Him and who accept the salvation of Jesus The peoples from every tribe, race, nation and language. John sees them gathered in all of the holy Land. Revelation 7:9

NOT the fake Israelis, who reject Jesus and are mostly atheists. Romans 2:27 states this clearly.

Paul mentioned a hardening on Israel to prevent its Jews from believing in Jesus until the "fullness" of the gentiles have been brought in. Are such Jews evil people?

 

[David in NJ]

Paul mentioned a hardening on Israel to prevent its Jews from believing in Jesus until the "fullness" of the gentiles have been brought in. Are such Jews evil people?

Did God harden their hearts first or did they harden their hearts against God even before and during when He walked this earth?

Acts ch4
And being let go, they went to their own companions and reported all that the chief priests and elders had said to them. 24So when they heard that, they raised their voice to God with one accord and said: “Lord, You are God, who made heaven and earth and the sea, and all that is in them, 25who by the mouth of Your servant David have said:

‘Why did the nations rage,
And the people plot vain things?
26The kings of the earth took their stand,
And the rulers were gathered together
Against the Lord and against His Christ.’

27“For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together 28to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined before to be done. 29Now, Lord, look on their threats, and grant to Your servants that with all boldness they may speak Your word, 30by stretching out Your hand to heal, and that signs and wonders may be done through the name of Your holy Servant Jesus.”

31And when they had prayed, the place where they were assembled together was shaken; and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and they spoke the word of God with boldness.

 

[The Light]

144,000 is symbolic of the Body of Christ

A different option is that they are exactly what the Word says they are. I think I'll go with the truth of the Word of God.

 

[Keraz]

A false claim Keraz on your part. The Holy Land is not mentioned in Revelation 7:9. However, the great multitude of the saints we are told are assembled in the Throne room of God.

Revelation 7:1-3 sets the scene for all of the Prophecy in that Chapter to be on earth and nowhere are we told of a location change.
Rev 7:4-12 describes events soon after the just happened; Day of the Lords vengeance and wrath,
Then Rev 7:13-17, tells about the Eternal state, after the Millennium. Proved by how God will then: wipe away every tear. Revelation 20:4
Only your fevered imagination thinks Verse 9 is in heaven, it is on earth, it relates to Revelation 5:10

Get this: NO human ever goes to heaven; it is the place for spiritual beings. Eventually; God and therefore heaven, comes to us. Revelation 20:1-7

 

[Keraz]

Paul mentioned a hardening on Israel to prevent its Jews from believing in Jesus until the "fullness" of the gentiles have been brought in. Are such Jews evil people?

The 'hardening of the Jews' is entirely their own doing. God has given them plenty of time and opportunity to accept Jesus as Messiah. They refuse and God will do as is Prophesied; destroy them and only a remnant will survive. Isaiah 22:14. Romans 9:27

 

[Patrick1966]

The 'hardening of the Jews' is entirely their own doing. God has given them plenty of time and opportunity to accept Jesus as Messiah. They refuse and God will do as is Prophesied; destroy them and only a remnant will survive. Isaiah 22:14. Romans 9:27

Will they burn in Hell forever?

 

[Jay Ross]

Revelation 7:1-3 sets the scene for all of the Prophecy in that Chapter to be on earth and nowhere are we told of a location change.
Rev 7:4-12 describes events soon after the just happened; Day of the Lords vengeance and wrath,
Then Rev 7:13-17, tells about the Eternal state, after the Millennium. Proved by how God will then: wipe away every tear. Revelation 20:4
Only your fevered imagination thinks Verse 9 is in heaven, it is on earth, it relates to Revelation 5:10

Get this: NO human ever goes to heaven; it is the place for spiritual beings. Eventually; God and therefore heaven, comes to us. Revelation 20:1-7

Keraz, you have given your opinion as to how Rev 7 should be understood. It is my opinion that your opinion is based on a flawed understanding of the timeline for all of the end time events and when they take place.

It is my view that Revelation 7 plays out after the first 1,000 years of the Seventh Age, that Satan, the beast, the False Prophet, i.e., the Little Horn of Daniel 7 & 8, and the judged kings of the earth, are imprisoned in the Bottomless Pit), when the Bottomless pit is unlocked and releases the four winds of heaven, the false prophet and Satan, to bring tribulation upon all the peoples of the earth. The 1,000 years is called a Season, in Daniel 7:12, and the Little While period that follows, is where many of the events described in the End Time prophecies unfold. Revelation 7 describe the Sealing of the 144,000 Israelites from the 12 tribes of Israel to protect them during the time of the Little While Period including the time of the Great Tribulation.

Now you then make the claim that I hold to a particular perspective which I never presented in my previous post. Perhaps I should report you for your false assertion, when you wrote: - "Only your fevered imagination thinks Verse 9 is in heaven." What I had highlighted from Rev 7:9 was: - "a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb," The multitude from the many nations are first described in Revelation 6 in the Fifth Seal: The Cry of the Martyrs where it states:-

Rev 6:9-11: - 9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.​

This would suggest that the great multitude in their White Robes came from different events during the Little While Period and that the time described in Revelation 7 co-insides with Revelation 21:4 where the Saint are worshipping Jesus and God with their song.

It is often difficult to align different End Time passages with each other because they are not presents in the same consistent contextual pattern that many of us seek to discover and reveal to others. The written jigsaw is often difficult to accurately write about.

Keraz, you often mix some of your theories with the End Time Prophecies found in Scripture, as if they have been presented by God for you to reveal. Sadly, many on this forum have similar problems. You might even point your finger at me claiming that this is what I do, also.

However, it seems to me that you are having a crisis in that there are many who argue against your radical ideas.

Shalom

​

 

[Patrick1966]

Keraz, you have given your opinion as to how Rev 7 should be understood. It is my opinion that your opinion is based on a flawed understanding of the timeline for all of the end time events and when they take place.

It is my view that Revelation 7 plays out after the first 1,000 years of the Seventh Age, that Satan, the beast, the False Prophet, i.e., the Little Horn of Daniel 7 & 8, and the judged kings of the earth, are imprisoned in the Bottomless Pit), when the Bottomless pit is unlocked and releases the four winds of heaven, the false prophet and Satan, to bring tribulation upon all the peoples of the earth. The 1,000 years is called a Season, in Daniel 7:12, and the Little While period that follows, is where many of the events described in the End Time prophecies unfold. Revelation 7 describe the Sealing of the 144,000 Israelites from the 12 tribes of Israel to protect them during the time of the Little While Period including the time of the Great Tribulation.

Now you then make the claim that I hold to a particular perspective which I never presented in my previous post. Perhaps I should report you for your false assertion, when you wrote: - "Only your fevered imagination thinks Verse 9 is in heaven." What I had highlighted from Rev 7:9 was: - "a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb," The multitude from the many nations are first described in Revelation 6 in the Fifth Seal: The Cry of the Martyrs where it states:-

Rev 6:9-11: - 9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.​

This would suggest that the great multitude in their White Robes came from different events during the Little While Period and that the time described in Revelation 7 co-insides with Revelation 21:4 where the Saint are worshipping Jesus and God with their song.

It is often difficult to align different End Time passages with each other because they are not presents in the same consistent contextual pattern that many of us seek to discover and reveal to others. The written jigsaw is often difficult to accurately write about.

Keraz, you often mix some of your theories with the End Time Prophecies found in Scripture, as if they have been presented by God for you to reveal. Sadly, many on this forum have similar problems. You might even point your finger at me claiming that this is what I do, also.

However, it seems to me that you are having a crisis in that there are many who argue against your radical ideas.

Shalom

​

 

[Jay Ross]

View attachment 35050

Patrick what is your point. If you are not able to articulate any comments or enlightenment, then perhaps you should not post anything as the pic says more about you than about me. It shows your shallowness of character.

 

[Patrick1966]

Patrick what is your point. If you are not able to articulate any comments or enlightenment, then perhaps you should not post anything as the pic says more about you than about me. It shows your shallowness of character.

You're always demeaning others and acting as if you have an infallible understanding of God and his word. Please continue. We appreciate the laughs!

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

So, how could the 144,000 be numbered from tribes that no longer exist?

So, you don't believe God has the power to survive bloodlines of these tribes throughout the generations? They were physically scattered, broken up as tribes, yet individually, their generations were propagated (unbeknownst to them). Do you believe the old saying, "Marriages are made in heaven"? God can draw two individuals together who have forgotten their ancestors _ yet they just happen to be from the same tribe and then their children and their children's children. Doubt it? I don't. God's sovereign plan (prophesied in detail) should be taken literally. Just because we don't know and can't verify their origins, does not mean they don 't exist.
Anthropologists ha e documents of people's claiming to be from the lost tribes.
"Josephus (37–100 CE) wrote that "there are but two tribes in Asia and Europe subject to the Romans, while the ten tribes are beyond Euphrates till now, and are an immense multitude, and not to be estimated by numbers."
In the 12th century BC there were close a million Jews in the 12 tribes. Now there are 15 million Jews spread out in the world. They were not all generated from two tribes! All of the millions of Jews generated from the ten tribes did not just forget who they were and decide to inter marry woth Gentiles. Many did but not all and so to preserve 12,000 young virgin males from each tribe is not impossible for God.

 

[David in NJ]

So, you don't believe God has the power to survive bloodlines of these tribes throughout the generations? They were physically scattered, broken up as tribes, yet individually, their generations were propagated (unbeknownst to them). Do you believe the old saying, "Marriages are made in heaven"? God can draw two individuals together who have forgotten their ancestors _ yet they just happen to be from the same tribe and then their children and their children's children. Doubt it? I don't. God's sovereign plan (prophesied in detail) should be taken literally. Just because we don't know and can't verify their origins, does not mean they don 't exist.
Anthropologists ha e documents of people's claiming to be from the lost tribes.
"Josephus (37–100 CE) wrote that "there are but two tribes in Asia and Europe subject to the Romans, while the ten tribes are beyond Euphrates till now, and are an immense multitude, and not to be estimated by numbers."
In the 12th century BC there were close a million Jews in the 12 tribes. Now there are 15 million Jews spread out in the world. They were not all generated from two tribes! All of the millions of Jews generated from the ten tribes did not just forget who they were and decide to inter marry woth Gentiles. Many did but not all and so to preserve 12,000 young virgin males from each tribe is not impossible for God.

The overwhelming evidence of Scripture points to 144k as being symbolic.