The 144,000 before God at the end.

[Timtofly]

Then he writes, "And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written"

Because Israel is Israel, not the church. The church is Israel and Gentiles, grafted in. Before the Cross, Gentiles still had to be grafted in. Israel did not, as they were natural branches.

The blindness in part is that they are now cut off. After the fulness of the Gentiles, then Israel will be natural branches again. No one is currently a natural branch, period. No one is currently "of Israel". All have to be grafted in, even blind Israel in part, as they are natural branches who have to be grafted in like the wild branches.

Israel will be saved when restored to "not cut off status", but natural growth as before. Israel was left desolate. But no verse claims Israel will remain cut off for all eternity. Natural branches will be natural again.

 

[Timtofly]

Sure. But eternity is the age to come, as opposed to the present age.

That may be your theological stance, but not what eternity is.

Eternity has no end nor beginning, so cannot be an age at all. An age has a beginning and end.

Only God can exist in eternity outside of creation.

Now one may say the next creation will have a beginning, but never end, because we are never told it has an end. Of course in the OT, this creation was said to never end as well. It was only at the first coming of Jesus, where we hear there is an end, as well as the beginning in Genesis 1:1. The end would be Revelation 20:11. Isaiah 57:15 is the only verse in the KJV where the word is found. May be used more in other translations?

"For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy."

There are 10 verses that claim there is no one beside God existing in this eternity. Or no one of equal status capable of existence in eternity. We know that in creation God, as sitting on the GWT, has the heavenly host by His side.

That we are eternal souls or that there will always be a heaven and earth means they are eternal, but not necessarily eternity. Is this even the first heaven and earth creation? Creation may come from nothing, but has there always been a heaven and earth over and over again? Coming from nothing, and going back to nothing. You may be trying to say something, but seems that such theology has no basis in Scripture, but just some human understanding trying to put the unknown into words.

Why do you claim ages as every new creation, but yet reject ages within each creation? You even call eternity that has no end and beginning an age, but then claim there cannot be ages within creation because of no acceptable beginning and end. For instance the time prior to the Flood was a different age than after the Flood. Even heaven and earth were different. Not new as in a new creation, but new as now there are continents, now there is rain and a different atmosphere with different climates. Then when Jacob's name was changed to Israel, there was a new age for humanity, as now there were natural branches to a tree, that was by faith in God's promises. Ages like that happened in this creation. Ages that had a defined beginning and an end. Even Adam's disobedience caused a new age where sin was now in the earth. Some ages overlapping other ages. Seems that as long as there is a defined creation with a heaven and earth, eternity is still outside of such a creation.

 

[Zao is life]

Under the alter is not a literal place nor location. It is symbolic of being redeemed by the blood of the Lamb.

Every soul currently not in sheol is under the alter, as in redeemed by the blood of the Lamb.

Those goats in Matthew 25 are not under the alter. The sheep are under the alter, after they are judged as sheep and redeemed from mankind. They are then on the sea of glass which is a literal place. The church is in Paradise. Paradise is not the sea of glass. Revelation 15:2-3

"And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God. And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints."

"And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God. And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind."

Revelation 4:5-6

Those who get the victory over the beast are those under the alter, as in redeemed. The church got the victory over the beast throughout the OT and NT up until this very day. They are all souls under the alter. All those under the alter, currently in Paradise, are no longer in Adam's dead corruptible flesh. Those currently alive on the earth born from above, the second birth, still in Adam's dead corruptible flesh are under the alter, just not redeemed out of Adam's dead corruptible flesh, yet.

The Church is removed at the Second Coming. The 144k are still on the earth, then sealed by the angels to withstand the time of Jacob's trouble, the Trumpets and Thunders. Jesus is also on the earth with the 144k and all the angels. The 144k go and exist wherever Jesus is; from the moment they are sealed, and for ever, after the Second Coming, the 6th Seal. They are also souls under the alter, because they remain in the Lamb's book of life, as they are sealed prior to the 7th Seal being opened.

After the 7th Seal is opened is when names are blotted out. The goats are the first to be blotted out of the Lamb's book of life. Those under the alter are also forever named in the Lamb's book of life. Most call them the elect.

In Revelation 14, the reason why the 144k are always with Jesus and on heavenly mount Zion is that they are waiting for Satan's 42 months to be over that started in the midst of the week of the 7th Trumpet. Do they have to actually sit on white horses for time to pass on earth? Probably not. It will be them returning in Revelation 19. They don't co-reign with Satan on earth. The sheep and wheat waiting on the sea of glass also return with Jesus and the 144k. They are the first generation of the Millennial Kingdom. They are called the firstfruits of the final harvest. The sheep and wheat is the entire harvest. Those beheaded are the gleanings during Satan's 42 months.

Your theology is warped. Jacob's trouble is not "all about the Jews".

The way people always either exalt or condemn the Jews above all other nations and refuse to include them among all other nations as no better and no worse, and no more special nor less special than all other nations, and refuse to include believing Jews in THE CHURCH, is Satanic, IMO.

If you do not read THE CHURCH when you read ISRAEL, and if you do not read ISRAEL when you read JACOB in the Bible, and if you do not read NEW JERUSALEM when you read MOUNT ZION in the Revelation, then you believe neither the Old nor the New Testament, and your theology and eschatology is warped.​

 

[Zao is life]

Because Israel is Israel, not the church. The church is Israel and Gentiles, grafted in. Before the Cross, Gentiles still had to be grafted in. Israel did not, as they were natural branches.

The blindness in part is that they are now cut off. After the fulness of the Gentiles, then Israel will be natural branches again. No one is currently a natural branch, period. No one is currently "of Israel". All have to be grafted in, even blind Israel in part, as they are natural branches who have to be grafted in like the wild branches.

Israel will be saved when restored to "not cut off status", but natural growth as before. Israel was left desolate. But no verse claims Israel will remain cut off for all eternity. Natural branches will be natural again.

You've made it clear that you don't know what you are talking about and don't believe either the Old Testament or the New Testament regarding Jacob and Israel. See post #484.

 

[rwb]

Under the alter is not a literal place nor location. It is symbolic of being redeemed by the blood of the Lamb.

Every soul currently not in sheol is under the alter, as in redeemed by the blood of the Lamb.

Those goats in Matthew 25 are not under the alter. The sheep are under the alter, after they are judged as sheep and redeemed from mankind. They are then on the sea of glass which is a literal place. The church is in Paradise. Paradise is not the sea of glass. Revelation 15:2-3

"And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God. And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints."

"And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God. And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind."

Revelation 4:5-6

Those who get the victory over the beast are those under the alter, as in redeemed. The church got the victory over the beast throughout the OT and NT up until this very day. They are all souls under the alter. All those under the alter, currently in Paradise, are no longer in Adam's dead corruptible flesh. Those currently alive on the earth born from above, the second birth, still in Adam's dead corruptible flesh are under the alter, just not redeemed out of Adam's dead corruptible flesh, yet.

The Church is removed at the Second Coming. The 144k are still on the earth, then sealed by the angels to withstand the time of Jacob's trouble, the Trumpets and Thunders. Jesus is also on the earth with the 144k and all the angels. The 144k go and exist wherever Jesus is; from the moment they are sealed, and for ever, after the Second Coming, the 6th Seal. They are also souls under the alter, because they remain in the Lamb's book of life, as they are sealed prior to the 7th Seal being opened.

After the 7th Seal is opened is when names are blotted out. The goats are the first to be blotted out of the Lamb's book of life. Those under the alter are also forever named in the Lamb's book of life. Most call them the elect.

In Revelation 14, the reason why the 144k are always with Jesus and on heavenly mount Zion is that they are waiting for Satan's 42 months to be over that started in the midst of the week of the 7th Trumpet. Do they have to actually sit on white horses for time to pass on earth? Probably not. It will be them returning in Revelation 19. They don't co-reign with Satan on earth. The sheep and wheat waiting on the sea of glass also return with Jesus and the 144k. They are the first generation of the Millennial Kingdom. They are called the firstfruits of the final harvest. The sheep and wheat is the entire harvest. Those beheaded are the gleanings during Satan's 42 months.

Why would physically dead saints be under the altar, (which you agree symbolizes being redeemed by the blood of the Lamb) since Christ has defeated death? These Old Covenant faithful saints died waiting for the promised Messiah to come, knowing that He would redeem them from the grave. He did that when He descended into the domain of Satan (grave; place of physical death) and set the captives free, taking them spiritually alive with Him as He ascended to heaven. The blood of Christ doesn't redeem only those who are saved after His cross and resurrection. His blood also covers those of Old who died in faith waiting for the promise of His coming. That's why John writes they were "under the altar". IOW covered by the blood of Christ retroactively. They were under the altar, covered by the blood of the Lamb via Covenant Promise established in heaven from before the foundation of the world.

Galatians 4:4-5 (KJV) But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

Ephesians 4:8-10 (KJV) Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

 

[rebuilder 454]

Error #1 - "ethnic" Jews

Revelation does not speak of 144k "ethnic" Jews.

Revelation speaks of the Body and Bride of Christ = just as Rev ch7 and Rev ch21 , Gospel , Ephesians , Galatians , Romans , Acts declare

Paul was of the tribe of Benjamin.
You have no case at all.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Genesis 7

Genesis 7
17 And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lift up above the earth.

1 Thes 4
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord

Genesis 8
4 And the ark rested in the seventh month, on the seventeenth day of the month, upon the mountains of Ararat.

Revelation 19
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

The Church is in heaven before the seals are opened.

The Great Tribulation is over at the 6th seal when the second harvest occurs.
Revelation 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

Wrath is over when the 7th trumpet sounds.

Maybe it was a submarine.
That is what the next silly dynamic will be

 

[rebuilder 454]

Under the alter is not a literal place nor location. It is symbolic of being redeemed by the blood of the Lamb.

Every soul currently not in sheol is under the alter, as in redeemed by the blood of the Lamb.

Those goats in Matthew 25 are not under the alter. The sheep are under the alter, after they are judged as sheep and redeemed from mankind. They are then on the sea of glass which is a literal place. The church is in Paradise. Paradise is not the sea of glass. Revelation 15:2-3

"And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God. And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints."

"And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God. And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind."

Revelation 4:5-6

Those who get the victory over the beast are those under the alter, as in redeemed. The church got the victory over the beast throughout the OT and NT up until this very day. They are all souls under the alter. All those under the alter, currently in Paradise, are no longer in Adam's dead corruptible flesh. Those currently alive on the earth born from above, the second birth, still in Adam's dead corruptible flesh are under the alter, just not redeemed out of Adam's dead corruptible flesh, yet.

The Church is removed at the Second Coming. The 144k are still on the earth, then sealed by the angels to withstand the time of Jacob's trouble, the Trumpets and Thunders. Jesus is also on the earth with the 144k and all the angels. The 144k go and exist wherever Jesus is; from the moment they are sealed, and for ever, after the Second Coming, the 6th Seal. They are also souls under the alter, because they remain in the Lamb's book of life, as they are sealed prior to the 7th Seal being opened.

After the 7th Seal is opened is when names are blotted out. The goats are the first to be blotted out of the Lamb's book of life. Those under the alter are also forever named in the Lamb's book of life. Most call them the elect.

In Revelation 14, the reason why the 144k are always with Jesus and on heavenly mount Zion is that they are waiting for Satan's 42 months to be over that started in the midst of the week of the 7th Trumpet. Do they have to actually sit on white horses for time to pass on earth? Probably not. It will be them returning in Revelation 19. They don't co-reign with Satan on earth. The sheep and wheat waiting on the sea of glass also return with Jesus and the 144k. They are the first generation of the Millennial Kingdom. They are called the firstfruits of the final harvest. The sheep and wheat is the entire harvest. Those beheaded are the gleanings during Satan's 42 months.

Bible = altar at a specific location
You = nope it is not

 

[rebuilder 454]

Because Israel is Israel, not the church. The church is Israel and Gentiles, grafted in. Before the Cross, Gentiles still had to be grafted in. Israel did not, as they were natural branches.

The blindness in part is that they are now cut off. After the fulness of the Gentiles, then Israel will be natural branches again. No one is currently a natural branch, period. No one is currently "of Israel". All have to be grafted in, even blind Israel in part, as they are natural branches who have to be grafted in like the wild branches.

Israel will be saved when restored to "not cut off status", but natural growth as before. Israel was left desolate. But no verse claims Israel will remain cut off for all eternity. Natural branches will be natural again.

you can reframe what is written in romans.
Sad to see it.
But paul was a jew from the tribe of benjamin.
You need it to say something else for your doctrine.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Your theology is warped. Jacob's trouble is not "all about the Jews".

The way people always either exalt or condemn the Jews above all other nations and refuse to include them among all other nations as no better and no worse, and no more special nor less special than all other nations, and refuse to include believing Jews in THE CHURCH, is Satanic, IMO.

If you do not read THE CHURCH when you read ISRAEL, and if you do not read ISRAEL when you read JACOB in the Bible, and if you do not read NEW JERUSALEM when you read MOUNT ZION in the Revelation, then you believe neither the Old nor the New Testament, and your theology and eschatology is warped.​

You are correct and wrong at the same time.
You need those dynamics as one dimenional.
It is like saying concerning Jesus as a lion and a lamb that he is only a lion or he is only a lamb but can't be both. That is what you are doing you are basically saying if you don't see a lion when it says lamb and you don't see a lamb when it says lion, then you don't know your Bible

That's how ridiculous your position is

 

[rebuilder 454]

There is some really far fetched stuff in this thread.

Thank you Jesus that we have your word
we have the word of God
we have the Bible and we do not have to be subject these doctrinally expedient silly interpretations

 

[rebuilder 454]

Church.

Not from.

In.

They are listed.
You can not answer????
Maybe get on the right track?
Again ,what tribe are you from?
What main harvest follows your gathering since you are firstfruiit and Wink wink Jewish church.

 

[rebuilder 454]

That memo is not coming. The reason that memo is not coming is because most people think that the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 occurs when Christ returns with the armies of heaven. You being one of the few that understands that there are two raptures should know that is not the case.


No sir. The great tribulation is over before wrath ever begins. The tribulation is over at the 6th seal. See below.

Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Then the wrath of God begins.
Revelation 6
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

No sir. The first part of the 7 years is the beginning of Sorrows. This is the 1st four seals.

Matthew 24
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

8 All these are the beginning of sorrows

The great tribulation does not begin until the abomination of Desolation is set up.

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

As shown earlier, the wrath of God does not begin until the tribulation is over.

The wrath of God, from the blowing of the first trumpet of wrath to the armies leaving heaven is one year


This is not the wrath of God. The 4 horsemen, are the beginning of sorrows. They are part of the tribulation. Then the abomination of desolation is set up and that begins the great tribulation. The tribulation is over at the 6th seal. Then the wrath of God begins. The wrath of God ends at the 7th trumpet. When you are reading Revelation 13 and 14 you are back in the seals.

And to be completely correct the first day, Noah loads the animals in the ark and is sealed in. Tribulation will not begin until the Church is sealed in the ark. Meaning that the seals are not opened until the second day of the seven.


Understanding the truth will not get you on the same page as others. It will take you further away from others. You are already on a different page as others because you understand that the 144,000 are first fruits of the harvest that occurs in Revelation 14.

When that harvest, which occurs at the 6th seal, is complete, the tribulation is over and the wrath of God is about to begin. Learning the difference between the tribulation and the wrath of God will not help you communicate with others, it will help you understand how it all fits together perfectly. If everyone, (and I'm not referring to you), would just get out way and accept what is written, everything fits perfectly. As soon as something is made up, that person is off the trail.

There is a 7 year period
It is the great tribulation
.that is WHY it the 7 yr gt is shortened for the Jew.
"Those days", the 7 yr gt, are shortened.
We see it broken up in 2 sections.

Wrath ALWAYS has tribulation.
ALWAYS.
7 yr gt.
The 4 Horsemen are released from heaven and kick off the gt.
The innumerable number are billions murdered at the Start of the gt..
So yes the seven yr gt is truly GREAT TRIBULATION right from the start.
Read the milling and destruction of the 4 horsemen

 

[PinSeeker]

That may be your theological stance, but not what eternity is.

Eternity has no end nor beginning, so cannot be an age at all. An age has a beginning and end.

Only God can exist in eternity outside of creation.

Now one may say the next creation will have a beginning, but never end, because we are never told it has an end. Of course in the OT, this creation was said to never end as well. It was only at the first coming of Jesus, where we hear there is an end, as well as the beginning in Genesis 1:1. The end would be Revelation 20:11. Isaiah 57:15 is the only verse in the KJV where the word is found. May be used more in other translations?

"For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy."

There are 10 verses that claim there is no one beside God existing in this eternity. Or no one of equal status capable of existence in eternity. We know that in creation God, as sitting on the GWT, has the heavenly host by His side.

That we are eternal souls or that there will always be a heaven and earth means they are eternal, but not necessarily eternity. Is this even the first heaven and earth creation? Creation may come from nothing, but has there always been a heaven and earth over and over again? Coming from nothing, and going back to nothing. You may be trying to say something, but seems that such theology has no basis in Scripture, but just some human understanding trying to put the unknown into words.

Why do you claim ages as every new creation, but yet reject ages within each creation? You even call eternity that has no end and beginning an age, but then claim there cannot be ages within creation because of no acceptable beginning and end. For instance the time prior to the Flood was a different age than after the Flood. Even heaven and earth were different. Not new as in a new creation, but new as now there are continents, now there is rain and a different atmosphere with different climates. Then when Jacob's name was changed to Israel, there was a new age for humanity, as now there were natural branches to a tree, that was by faith in God's promises. Ages like that happened in this creation. Ages that had a defined beginning and an end. Even Adam's disobedience caused a new age where sin was now in the earth. Some ages overlapping other ages. Seems that as long as there is a defined creation with a heaven and earth, eternity is still outside of such a creation.

I appreciate your opinions... for entertainment value if nothing else. :) Grace and peace to you, Timtofly.

 

[rwb]

There is a 7 year period
It is the great tribulation
.that is WHY it the 7 yr gt is shortened for the Jew.
"Those days", the 7 yr gt, are shortened.
We see it broken up in 2 sections.

Wrath ALWAYS has tribulation.
ALWAYS.
7 yr gt.
The 4 Horsemen are released from heaven and kick off the gt.
The innumerable number are billions murdered at the Start of the gt..
So yes the seven yr gt is truly GREAT TRIBULATION right from the start.
Read the milling and destruction of the 4 horsemen

More OPINION!!! Where are the verses/passages from Scripture to PROVE what you allege???? You have nothing but an incredible IMAGINATION!!!

 

[Timtofly]

Ah, firstfruits. Another terribly misunderstood (by many) concept. It should help to (and you might agree) that we are to offer our firstfruits ~ or best, with regard to offerings ~ to the Lord. So... on a much greater level, of course... we, as believers, God's elect, are His (God's) firstfruits.

So the firstfruits are the best, and seperate from the rest of the harvest? Not just a mere representation of millions from all time?

These 144k are the best, after the church is removed, from those still on the earth at the Second Coming.

The Church is in heaven. These 144k are with Christ on the earth, at the point of the Second Coming. Jesus is sitting on that glorious throne in Jerusalem in judgment over the sheep and goats. The 144k are the best out of those future sheep, that is the Nation of Israel set apart to rule over the earth. You have replaced this future Millennium with the here and now. You have replaced this coming Nation of Israel, with the church 1993 years ago. Revelation 7 is the result of the Second Coming, not the result of the first coming.

You don't even accept the OT church has been physically enjoying Paradise for the last 1993 years. You think the 144k are from the first century, while denying those literally from the first century are already physically enjoying God's presence in heaven, since the Cross.

 

[Timtofly]

The unbelieving natural seed were broken off through their unbelief in the first century but the remnant remained. What they can't understand is that just because there is a new temple, this does mean there is a new Israel. There is a new temple - and the living citizens of Israel ARE that temple.

Not just the first century. The branches were cut off in 720BC. You are still not getting the whole olive tree in sight.

At the Second Coming Israel will be the natural branches of this olive tree that covers the whole history of Israel, starting when God gave that name to Jacob. Paul is not just pointing out the first century, but the whole of history.

Paul just happened to live in the first century, so that is when his thoughts were put into words to read. There will be a millennial kingdom on earth and Israel will reign over all the nations. People will not be joining that nation, because all the nations on earth will be holy, and everlasting righteousness will prevail.

There is no building a kingdom or temple on earth. The church is currently physically assembled in Paradise. That is why it cannot be seen by those on earth. But they can see us on earth as that great crowd of witnesses.

 

[Timtofly]

Your theology is warped. Jacob's trouble is not "all about the Jews".

The way people always either exalt or condemn the Jews above all other nations and refuse to include them among all other nations as no better and no worse, and no more special nor less special than all other nations, and refuse to include believing Jews in THE CHURCH, is Satanic, IMO.

If you do not read THE CHURCH when you read ISRAEL, and if you do not read ISRAEL when you read JACOB in the Bible, and if you do not read NEW JERUSALEM when you read MOUNT ZION in the Revelation, then you believe neither the Old nor the New Testament, and your theology and eschatology is warped.​

Never said "all about the Jews". Your whole post is a warped logical fallacy, and not even a proper argument.

 

[Timtofly]

You've made it clear that you don't know what you are talking about and don't believe either the Old Testament or the New Testament regarding Jacob and Israel. See post #484.

You have made it clear that you trample under foot the Word of God for mere argument sake. You could at least address the points instead of the one making the post.

 

[Timtofly]

Why would physically dead saints be under the altar, (which you agree symbolizes being redeemed by the blood of the Lamb) since Christ has defeated death? These Old Covenant faithful saints died waiting for the promised Messiah to come, knowing that He would redeem them from the grave. He did that when He descended into the domain of Satan (grave; place of physical death) and set the captives free, taking them spiritually alive with Him as He ascended to heaven. The blood of Christ doesn't redeem only those who are saved after His cross and resurrection. His blood also covers those of Old who died in faith waiting for the promise of His coming. That's why John writes they were "under the altar". IOW covered by the blood of Christ retroactively. They were under the altar, covered by the blood of the Lamb via Covenant Promise established in heaven from before the foundation of the world.

Galatians 4:4-5 (KJV) But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

Ephesians 4:8-10 (KJV) Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

No saints are physically dead, nor under a literal alter. The whole point is they are redeemed.

They are enjoying Paradise in permanent incorruptible physical bodies.

Why do you think saints are still dead?

"After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb."

They have had physical bodies since 30AD in Paradise. That has been the scene in heaven for over 1993 years.

You seem stuck on some symbolic point saying the 144k are the OT saints.

I am pointing out the OT saints are the second half of the chapter. They are not physically dead, but physically alive.

The 144k are humans alive on the earth at the Second Coming. They remain alive on the earth until the 7th Trumpet. I never claimed any one is physically dead. I pointed out they used to be alive physically on the earth, and being under the alter is symbolic of being redeemed by the blood of the Lamb.