The 144,000 before God at the end.

[rebuilder 454]

Those pesky 144k.
Amazing the creative bible gymnastics that must be invoked for a postrib rapture.
Thank you Jesus for your word.

 

[rebuilder 454]

@rebuilder 454 says: "So you defend what is not written."

This is a lol x100 for 'pre-trib rapture' cannot be found anywhere in the Scriptures.

Whereas the Rev ch7 144K are specified in symbolic term and then explained Rev ch21

They are declared in Gods word as fitstfruits and ethnic Jews.
So vivid and deliberate.
But your doctrine demands the changes of men.
Sad

 

[rebuilder 454]

@rebuilder 454 says: "So you defend what is not written."

This is a lol x100 for 'pre-trib rapture' cannot be found anywhere in the Scriptures.

Whereas the Rev ch7 144K are specified in symbolic term and then explained Rev ch21

Are you trying to transpose the 144k ethnic Jews onto the measurement of the new Jerusalem?
I have to tell you, you are going to hurt yourself with that desperate grand canyon leap.
No way is that one close to being plausible.
In your mind, that somehow voids what is clearly written??????

 

[David in NJ]

Are you trying to transpose the 144k ethnic Jews onto the measurement of the new Jerusalem?
I have to tell you, you are going to hurt yourself with that desperate grand canyon leap.
No way is that one close to being plausible.
In your mind, that somehow voids what is clearly written??????

Error #1 - "ethnic" Jews

Revelation does not speak of 144k "ethnic" Jews.

Revelation speaks of the Body and Bride of Christ = just as Rev ch7 and Rev ch21 , Gospel , Ephesians , Galatians , Romans , Acts declare

 

[David in NJ]

They are declared in Gods word as fitstfruits and ethnic Jews.
So vivid and deliberate.
But your doctrine demands the changes of men.
Sad

Only Blood washed Saints, comprised of Jew & Gentile, make up the Body and Bride of Christ = there is no separation.

How many wives does Christ have?

 

[rwb]

Then if they are not ethnic Jews, but gentile Christians, it is pointless to only seal 144k believers.
False assumption will eventually be exposed.
The dilemma is that your doctrine would say christians are already sealed, so they are already protected by the flying scorpions.

Once again postrib doctrine is proven false.

Christians are sealed with the Holy Spirit the moment we are born again; the moment we believe we have eternal life and shall never die. Our body will die, but we will still be alive through Christ's Spirit in us.

The 144,000 of all the tribes of the children of Israel are the remnant of Old Covenant faithful saints who lived and died before the cross & resurrection. That means they died without the Spirit of Christ IN them, and it is the Spirit that gives life. This passage is depicting SYMBOLICALLY a remnant of Old Covenant faithful saints waiting in death, the bosom of Abraham to be made alive through the Spirit. Because the Spirit, though WITH Old Covenant faithful saints, would not be IN us until after the resurrection and ascension of Christ, when He would send Him.

Romans 9:27 (KJV) Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

Romans 11:1-5 (KJV) I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying, Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

John 14:17 (KJV) Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

John 6:63 (KJV) It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

John is shown how the Spirit universally was held back until these Old Covenant faithful saints were sealed. They are spiritually 'firstfruits' unto the Lord, first to be made SPIRITUALLY alive. Once sealed they would no longer be under the altar, which is what being in the bosom of Abraham symbolizes for the faithful. Once the Old Covenant faithful remnant spiritually ascended to heaven the Spirit on the Day of Pentecost would be universally poured out upon whosoever lives and believes in Christ.

Luke 16:22 (KJV) And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

Luke 16:25-26 (KJV) But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

Revelation 6:9-11 (KJV) And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Acts 1:4-5 (KJV) And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

Acts 2:16-17 (KJV) But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

The next time John writes of the 144,000 they are numbered with the great innumerable multitude before the Lord in heaven. Again John writes these 144,000, the faithful remnant of saints from Old, they have been sealed and have the Father's name written in their foreheads.

Revelation 6:11 (KJV) And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
Revelation 7:4 (KJV) And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

Revelation 7:9-10 (KJV) After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

Revelation 14:1 (KJV) And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

These Old Covenant faithful saints have already experienced the first resurrection from spiritual death to being a spiritual body of believers in heaven, where they ascended with Christ after His resurrection. Through His Spirit Christ freed them as well as all who live and believe, from bondage to darkness and death by His cross and resurrection. Every human must have part in the first resurrection to overcome the second death. These Old Covenant saints are not exceptions. Rather they are the first or firstfruits of faithful saints who are living spiritual body of believers in heaven since Christ took them with Him when He ascended to heaven. Ascending spiritually to heaven with Christ they became partakers of Christ, who is the "first resurrection" of the dead to die no more. Without having part in Christ, the first resurrection, these Old Covenant firstfruits of God would still be subjects of the second death. For this reason they too had to be sealed with the Spirit of Christ. This is what John is showing in this passage from Rev 7.

Revelation 20:6 (KJV) Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Ephesians 4:8-10 (KJV) Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

 

[rebuilder 454]

We are in the time period that the time of the flood signifies, and the ark is a type of Christ and is thus representative of Him in that He carries us though all trial and tribulation and sustains us to the end. The Old Testament is filled with what we might call object lessons like this.


Well, He's always with us in the Spirit (but not yet in Person, of course), just as He said He would be (Matthew 28:19).


Hm... well, I would replace 'instead of' with 'as,' here. Then, we'd be good.


Noah and his family are representative of the church in the flood story.


Not at all. See above. They were there through the flood, and the ark carried them safely through.


I... sort of, at least... agree with you here... <chuckles>


Nope. Goodness gracious. The ark is a type/shadow of Jesus, Who sustains us throughout our lives... here on earth. :) Wow.


If one is baptized ~ in this life ~ by God with the Holy Spirit and fire (Matthew 3:11; Luke 3:16), then he/she will not , as a result of the final Judgment, executed by Christ, follow Satan and his minions and be cast into the lake of fire ~ which is to be placed under God's eternal judgment ~ and thus suffer day and night forever and ever.


Sure, this is the present age.


Well, all those that have physically died will be resurrected on Christ's return, and only those who are in Christ will remain after the final Judgment. Certainly a real thing... LOL! But pointed to by things in the Old Testament... and promised in the New.


We disagree. It is spiritual, from death in sin to life in Christ, being raised by God and seated with Christ in the heavenly places, just as Paul says in Ephesians 2:4-11 and Peter says in 1 Peter 1:3-5.


It is after physical death, for sure, but this is the second resurrection, and it is either to eternal life or eternal judgment, just as Jesus says in John 5:28-29.


LOL! Well I certainly agree with this... LOL! But I think the problem is what you understand the fire to be... LOL!


Well, those belonging to Jesus are sustained ~ in this life ~ through the storms of life. We are both saved and being saved; Paul and Peter are very clear on this.


Which I have said numerous times...


Well, He's with us to the end, by the Holy Spirit, just as He said He would be in Matthew 28, as I said above, during this life where, though we meet with trials/tribulations of various kinds ~ even very great ones from time to time ~ we know that the testing of our faith produces steadfastness, which will have its full effect, that we may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing (James 1).


It's post-tribulation... although not then ushering in a 1,000-year "golden age" of peace and prosperity for the Church under Jesus, as post-millennialists suppose. After the present age of trial and tribulation, Jesus will return, and in short order execute the final Judgment, and the dead will obediently depart, and the Kingdom will be ushered in in its fullness, and eternity will begin... and never end, of course. :)


This will have happened in full, for the full innumerable multitude... all those of God's Israel, of true Jewish heritage. There will be no more sin, and thus no more tribulation. Everlasting joy shall crown our heads. All sorrow and sighing will have fled away. Love Isaiah 35...


Noah and his family represented the Jesus's Church through the flood. It's an object lesson, so to speak.


Absolutely not. As I have said, God never promises removal from trouble, this millennium of tribulation, but sustenance ~ and His sustaining presence ~ through it... throughout His Word.


Well, the true number of souls is innumerable... as the stars of heaven, as the grains of sand on the seashore, as God promises Abraham, and they are not "harvested from earth," but earth and heaven are finally one ~ heaven comes to us ~ and all things are made new (not "all new things are made"), as God promises in Revelation 21.

I've said it before... Goodness gracious. :)

Grace and peace to you.

Quote;"Noah and his family are representative of the church in the flood story"
Good point.
They enter the ark' a type of heaven prefood/ pretrib and the door is shut, as in the virgin parable, then as you point out, noah ( as you say the church) returns post trib/ flood.
Amen
Great pretrib rapture depiction by Jesus himself confirmed several times, in the next few sentences of that description, he so vividly declared and confirmed.

 

[rwb]

Error #1 - "ethnic" Jews

Revelation does not speak of 144k "ethnic" Jews.

Revelation speaks of the Body and Bride of Christ = just as Rev ch7 and Rev ch21 , Gospel , Ephesians , Galatians , Romans , Acts declare

The Bible doesn't use the term "ethnic", but these 144,000 are said to be of all the tribes of the children of Israel. Why make this distinction between the Israel of Old and the innumerable multitude if speaking of all Christians? It's not uncommon in Scripture to find Israel of old that shall be saved as "the remnant" of faithful saints. That language is not used of Gentile believers. Since the advent of Christ in this Gospel age Scripture speaks of the body of Christ being too many to count of ALL nations, tribes, kindreds and tongues. Together with saints of old and saints of new we are the body of believers in Christ. John writes of the sealing of these Old Covenant faithful saints as "firstfruits" of the Lord. Who can deny the first to believe would of necessity have to be sealed with the Spirit of Christ to be made alive? After their sealing and being spiritually raised a spiritual body, the Spirit is sent unto the four corners of the earth, and through Him the totality of heaven shall be innumerable to man.

 

[rwb]

Quote;"Noah and his family are representative of the church in the flood story"
Good point.
They enter the ark' a type of heaven prefood/ pretrib and the door is shut, as in the virgin parable, then as you point out, noah ( as you say the church) returns post trib/ flood.
Amen
Great pretrib rapture depiction by Jesus himself confirmed several times, in the next few sentences of that description, he so vividly declared and confirmed.

Noah came through the flood, he was not taken from the flood, but sustained in the ark through it. For your argument to be true, Noah would not have been on earth when the flood waters came. Noah is a depiction of great tribulation that comes upon this earth, and how Christians are assured that we too, like Noah shall not be destroyed by it. Because even if we are killed, we are still spiritually alive through the sustaining power of Christ.

 

[Zao is life]

So lets look even more, lets scratch below the surface. The 144,000 are living at the end of time when Jesus comes. Also, all of these saints the Bible tells us, will have the seal of God on their foreheads.​

God's promise to Abraham - the first thing He said:

Genesis 17:3-6
"And Abram fell on his face. And God talked with him, saying, As for Me, behold! My covenant is with you, and you shall be a father of a multitude of gôy (Gentiles/Gentile nations).

Neither shall your name any more be called Abram, but your name shall be Abraham. For I have made you a father of a multitude of gôy (Gentiles/Gentile nations).

And I will make you exceedingly fruitful, greatly so, and I will make gôy (Gentiles/Gentile nations) of you, and kings shall come out of you."

In God's very first promise to Abraham, He used the word gôy three times. He was not speaking of an ethnic nation.

It's so easy. The house of Israel, the sons of Israel:-

Reuben
Gad
Asher
Naphtali
Dan (Replaced by Manasseh in Revelation 7)
Simeon
Levi
Issachar
Zebulun
Joseph

Which of the above men became the patriarch of the Jews?

None of them.

The house of Judah, the sons of Israel:-

Judah
Bejamin.

Which of the above became the patriarch of the Jews?

Judah.

The 10 tribes

"Call his name Not-my-people. For you are not My people, and I will not be for you." -- Hosea 1:9.

"Ephraim shall be broken so that it shall not be a people." -- Isa 7:9

"Yet the number of the sons of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered. And it shall be, in the place where it was said to them, You are not My people, there it shall be said to them, You are the sons of the living God." -- Hosea 1:10

"Even us, whom he has called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? .. As he says also in Hosea, .. there shall they be called the children of the living God." -- Romans 9:22-26.

"Isaiah also cries concerning Israel, "Though the number of the sons of Israel is as the sands of the sea, a remnant shall be saved."" -- Romans 9:27

That remnant is not only the Jews. The 10 tribes have been scattered among the nations since 725 BC and their descendants have intermarried with Gentiles. The original 10 tribes cannot be traced. But the descendants still exist in a multitude of Gentile nations. It's the seed of Ephraim. No one who could hypothetically speaking trace his genetic ancestry back to one of the ten tribes will not also have Gentile ancestry.
​

"But his father refused and said, "I know, my son, I know. He (Manasseh) too will become a nation and he too will become great. In spite of this, his younger brother (Ephraim) will be even greater and his descendants will become [the fullness of the Gentiles]* a multitude of nations." -- Genesis 48:19

* [ Hebrew, m'lo gôy: (the) fulnness (of the) Gentile (nations) ].

Joseph is a biblical type of Jesus, and Joseph took one wife - a Gentile woman. His children were born in Egypt, and were Gentiles, but they were part of Israel, the seed of Israel (Jacob), the seed of Abraham. Ephraim's seed became "the fullness of the Gentiles" (the Hebrew wording of Genesis 48:19).

How they can get only the Jews out of 12 tribes is beyond me. Revelation 7:9 tells us who the 144,000 are.

It never had anything to do with anyone's genetic ancestry but only with who believes the Word of God like Abraham did. And the Word of God is Jesus. Abraham became the father of a multitude of Gentile nations through ten of Israel's sons. Not one of them is the patriarch of the Jews. Not even Bejamin is.​

 

[The Light]

It is plain goofy how they need the 144k to be a made up ,spiritual, broad brushed dynamic.
But actually, if they are in fact firstfruits and ethnic Jews, that ALONE ,completely destroys all but a pretrib rapture.

Thank God for his word.

Actually it proves a post trib rapture of the twelve tribes across the earth. It the first fruits are pumpkins, the harvest is pumpkins. Since the first fruits are of the twelve tribes across the earth, the harvest is the twelve tribes across the earth.

Here is the post trib rapture harvest.

Revelation 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

Here is a confirmation that those that are harvested immediately after the tribulation are from the 12 tribes.

Revelation 15
2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

Why do we have first fruits. Because there has already been a pretrib harvest of the Church before the seals are opened. Seen here.

Revelation 5
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

So there are two raptures, one pretrib and one post trib. After the pretrib rapture occurs, the seals can be opened. After the post trib rapture occurs the wrath of God can begin.

 

[The Light]

Noah came through the flood, he was not taken from the flood, but sustained in the ark through it. For your argument to be true, Noah would not have been on earth when the flood waters came.

Noah was sealed in the ark 6 days before the flood. The ark containing Noah was on earth when the flood waters came.

Noah is a depiction of great tribulation that comes upon this earth, and how Christians are assured that we too, like Noah shall not be destroyed by it.

Noah is a depiction of the Church being in heaven when the great tribulation comes on the earth as we can escape all these things that will come to pass. The Church will also be in heaven during the one-year wrath of God.

Because even if we are killed, we are still spiritually alive through the sustaining power of Christ.

Please. Whoever taught you that, flee quickly. It's about being in the ark, not being killed.

 

[covenantee]

Those pesky 144k.
Amazing the creative bible gymnastics that must be invoked for a postrib rapture.
Thank you Jesus for your word.

Please post the Scriptural reference that describes God's faithful obedient saints through the ages as "pesky".
No gymnastics at all for the spiritually discerning. Foolishness to all others. 1 Corinthians 2:14
Thank you God for the records of your faithful obedient saints through the ages.

The Church and the 144,000

Revelation 7:3-4 describe the 144,000 as “sealed.” That description is reserved in the NT for believers in Christ – His Body and Bride – His Church:

2 Corinthians 1:21-22
Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God, who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.

Ephesians 1:13
In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 4:30
Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.


The Revelation 7 passage is therefore conveying the insight that the OT Israelitish faithful obedient saints of God are included under the NT banner of the Church. This is further confirmed by the meanings of the names of the listed tribes and substitutes (Levi and Joseph replacing Dan and Ephraim), describing spiritual qualities and experiences of those who comprise the Church:
Judah means “praise” (Genesis 29:35)
Reuben means “see, a Son” (Genesis 29:32)
Gad means “fortunate” (Genesis 30:11)
Asher means “happy” (Genesis 30:13)
Naphtali means “wrestling” (Genesis 30:8)
Manasseh means “forgetting” (Genesis 41:51)
Simeon means “heard” (Genesis 29:33)
Levi means “attached” (Genesis 29:34)
Issachar means “wages” (Genesis 30:18)
Zebulon means “dwelling” (Genesis 30:20)
Joseph means “He will add” (Genesis 30:24)
Benjamin means “Son of the right hand” (Genesis 35:17–18)

Similarly, the meanings of the names of Dan and Ephraim convey the reasons for their exclusion:

Dan means “a serpent by the way”(Genesis 49:17)
Satan in the guise of the serpent was responsible for the fall of mankind in Genesis 3, and for the bruising of Messiah's heel in Scripture's first recorded prophecy of Genesis 3:15. It was the same serpent Satan whose head Messiah bruised at Calvary.

Ephraim means “fruitful in the land of mine affliction” (Genesis 41:52)
The reference to “the land of mine affliction” in Ephraim's name's meaning is to that of Egypt, which in Scripture is both a literal and spiritual reality and symbol of bondage. But the Church, God's Chosen People, do not inhabit a land of spiritual affliction and bondage. Rather, they inhabit the Heavenly Jerusalem on Mount Sion (Hebrews 12:22,23), located in the Heavenly Country that God has prepared for the faithful (Hebrews 11:16).

Of additional significance is the order in which the names are presented, differing from the usual presentation by order of birth. In particular, Judah appears first, in recognition of its role as the tribal progenitor of Christ, the Lion of Judah.

While rebellion and apostasy were repetitive afflictions of the OT Israelites, there were still thousands who remained faithful (1 Kings 19:18). Their number is depicted as 12, a scriptural value representing faithfulness; multiplied by 12, representing the faithful from each of the twelve tribes; multiplied by 1,000 representing the indeterminate but large number (Psalms 50:10; Psalms 91:7; Revelation 5:11) of the total faithful in Israel; thus, 144,000.

Revelation 14 continues the descriptions further reflecting the qualities and experiences of the redeemed – the Church. Absent here is any mention of tribal, ethnic, or other distinctions, thus conveying the reality of the inclusivity and unity of the NT Church which now embraces both Israelite and Gentile. Its number can also be depicted as 12, representing faithfulness; multipled by 12 representing the 12 faithful apostles, who with the prophets comprise the foundation of the NT church, with Christ as the Chief Cornerstone (Ephesians 2:20); multiplied by 1,000 representing the indeterminate but large number of the total faithful in the NT Church; thus, also 144,000.

The NT Church's inclusivity and unity are declared in the following:

Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Ephesians 2:14
For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall…

Colossians 3:11
Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.


The 144,00 are described as celibate, meaning that as the Bride of Christ, they are not defiled by adultery with the world (James 4:4). They sing a new song of deliverance and victory. They follow Christ wherever He goes. Their residence is heavenly Jerusalem on Mount Zion. (Hebrews 12:22)

No doubt about it…the Church is written all over the 144,000.

 

[rwb]

Noah was sealed in the ark 6 days before the flood. The ark containing Noah was on earth when the flood waters came.

The ark was sealed! Yes, Noah was present, but safe in the ark while the flood filled the earth. He was not taken from the earth, but kept safe during it.

Noah is a depiction of the Church being in heaven when the great tribulation comes on the earth as we can escape all these things that will come to pass. The Church will also be in heaven during the one-year wrath of God.

Noah is not in heaven during the great flood that filled the earth. He was on the earth both before, during and after the destruction of every living, breathing creature upon the earth, tucked safely in the ark. Scripture is replete with verses that speak of the Church enduring trial, affliction, and great tribulation throughout Her time on earth.

 

[The Light]

How they can get only the Jews out of 12 tribes is beyond me. Revelation 7:9 tells us who the 144,000 are.

It never had anything to do with anyone's genetic ancestry but only with who believes the Word of God like Abraham did. And the Word of God is Jesus. Abraham became the father of a multitude of Gentile nations through ten of Israel's sons. Not one of them is the patriarch of the Jews. Not even Bejamin is.​

Just wondering. When Hitler was gathering the Jews at the Holocaust was he only looking for those of the tribe of Judah?

Also since Paul tells us there is no difference between Jew and Greek was Hitler also gathering Greeks?

 

[The Light]

The ark was sealed! Yes, Noah was present, but safe in the ark while the flood filled the earth.

Just as the Church will be safe in the ark during the 70th week of Daniel.

He was not taken from the earth, but kept safe during it.

He was in the clouds safely in the ark.

Noah is not in heaven during the great flood that filled the earth. He was on the earth both before, during and after the destruction of every living, breathing creature upon the earth, tucked safely in the ark.

Noah was taken from the surface of the earth, just as the Church will be taken from the surface of the earth. Noah returned to the surface of the earth, just as the Church will return to the surface of the earth.

Scripture is replete with verses that speak of the Church enduring trial, affliction, and great tribulation throughout Her time on earth.

Scripture is replete with verses that show the Church can escape all these things that come to pass, that God keeps His promises to His people and that we are not appointed to wrath, which occurs after the tribulation.

 

[The Light]

The Church and the 144,000

The Chuch is not the 144,000. The 144,000 are of the twelve tribes, just as the Word says.

Revelation 7:3-4 describe the 144,000 as “sealed.” That description is reserved in the NT for believers in Christ – His Body and Bride – His Church:

Are you ignorant of this mystery?

Romans 11
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in

2 Corinthians 1:21-22
Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God, who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.

Ephesians 1:13
In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 4:30
Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Exactly. And the 144,000 are sealed believers after the fullness of the Gentiles comes in...........pre trib.

The Revelation 7 passage is therefore conveying the insight that the OT Israelitish faithful obedient saints of God are included under the NT banner of the Church. This is further confirmed by the meanings of the names of the listed tribes and substitutes (Levi and Joseph replacing Dan and Ephraim), describing spiritual qualities and experiences of those who comprise the Church:
Judah means “praise” (Genesis 29:35)
Reuben means “see, a Son” (Genesis 29:32)
Gad means “fortunate” (Genesis 30:11)
Asher means “happy” (Genesis 30:13)
Naphtali means “wrestling” (Genesis 30:8)
Manasseh means “forgetting” (Genesis 41:51)
Simeon means “heard” (Genesis 29:33)
Levi means “attached” (Genesis 29:34)
Issachar means “wages” (Genesis 30:18)
Zebulon means “dwelling” (Genesis 30:20)
Joseph means “He will add” (Genesis 30:24)
Benjamin means “Son of the right hand” (Genesis 35:17–18)

Similarly, the meanings of the names of Dan and Ephraim convey the reasons for their exclusion:

Dan means “a serpent by the way”(Genesis 49:17)
Satan in the guise of the serpent was responsible for the fall of mankind in Genesis 3, and for the bruising of Messiah's heel in Scripture's first recorded prophecy of Genesis 3:15. It was the same serpent Satan whose head Messiah bruised at Calvary.

Ephraim means “fruitful in the land of mine affliction” (Genesis 41:52)
The reference to “the land of mine affliction” in Ephraim's name's meaning is to that of Egypt, which in Scripture is both a literal and spiritual reality and symbol of bondage. But the Church, God's Chosen People, do not inhabit a land of spiritual affliction and bondage. Rather, they inhabit the Heavenly Jerusalem on Mount Sion (Hebrews 12:22,23), located in the Heavenly Country that God has prepared for the faithful (Hebrews 11:16).

Of additional significance is the order in which the names are presented, differing from the usual presentation by order of birth. In particular, Judah appears first, in recognition of its role as the tribal progenitor of Christ, the Lion of Judah.

While rebellion and apostasy were repetitive afflictions of the OT Israelites, there were still thousands who remained faithful (1 Kings 19:18). Their number is depicted as 12, a scriptural value representing faithfulness; multiplied by 12, representing the faithful from each of the twelve tribes; multiplied by 1,000 representing the indeterminate but large number (Psalms 50:10; Psalms 91:7; Revelation 5:11) of the total faithful in Israel; thus, 144,000.

There's always something that is made up when the written Word of God is not believed.

Revelation 14 continues the descriptions further reflecting the qualities and experiences of the redeemed – the Church.

The Church is in heaven long before the events of Revelation 14 and those 144,000 are of the tribes are not the mostly Gentile Church.

Absent here is any mention of tribal, ethnic, or other distinctions, thus conveying the reality of the inclusivity and unity of the NT Church which now embraces both Israelite and Gentile. Its number can also be depicted as 12, representing faithfulness; multipled by 12 representing the 12 faithful apostles, who with the prophets comprise the foundation of the NT church, with Christ as the Chief Cornerstone (Ephesians 2:20); multiplied by 1,000 representing the indeterminate but large number of the total faithful in the NT Church; thus, also 144,000.

The NT Church's inclusivity and unity are declared in the following:

Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Ephesians 2:14
For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall…

Colossians 3:11
Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

John 10
16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

There are two raptures or two folds. The first rapture is the Church which hear His voice. There are other sheep not of that fold that will also be brought into one-fold. There is timing involved.

The 144,00 are described as celibate, meaning that as the Bride of Christ, they are not defiled by adultery with the world (James 4:4). They sing a new song of deliverance and victory. They follow Christ wherever He goes. Their residence is heavenly Jerusalem on Mount Zion. (Hebrews 12:22)

No doubt about it…the Church is written all over the 144,000.

 

[rwb]

He was in the clouds safely in the ark.

Scripture ?????

Noah was taken from the surface of the earth, just as the Church will be taken from the surface of the earth. Noah returned to the surface of the earth, just as the Church will return to the surface of the earth.

More speculation without proof from Scripture???

Scripture is replete with verses that show the Church can escape all these things that come to pass, that God keeps His promises to His people and that we are not appointed to wrath, which occurs after the tribulation.

Christians are not appointed to God's WRATH, but as I said Scripture is filled with verses that speak of us going through great tribulation until the seventh angel sounds.

 

[covenantee]

The Chuch is not the 144,000. The 144,000 are of the twelve tribes, just as the Word says.

So you believe that God will choose 144,000 sex-deprived Israelites.

Is that the criterion for His choice?

 

[The Light]

Scripture ?????

Genesis 7

More speculation without proof from Scripture???

Genesis 7
17 And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lift up above the earth.

1 Thes 4
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord

Genesis 8
4 And the ark rested in the seventh month, on the seventeenth day of the month, upon the mountains of Ararat.

Revelation 19
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Christians are not appointed to God's WRATH, but as I said Scripture is filled with verses that speak of us going through great tribulation until the seventh angel sounds.

The Church is in heaven before the seals are opened.

The Great Tribulation is over at the 6th seal when the second harvest occurs.
Revelation 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

Wrath is over when the 7th trumpet sounds.