The 144,000 before God at the end.

[Timtofly]

And I don't say anything regarding the Word of God for argument's sake.

Perhaps doing so would help.

You could ask questions, instead of hurling a nonsensical response, about the poster, instead of the actual content of the post.

I cannot even respond, because I don't read minds.

 

[Timtofly]

All Paul is saying is that just as in 725 B.C there was a remnant left (who fled to Judah and became amalgamated with the Jews over time, just like Benjamin eventually did), so there is a remnant left who were not broken off from Israel through unbelief in Jesus.

Why people read 100 times more into what Paul said than what he said in Romans 11:1-5, is beyond me. These words in verse 5: "So in the same way at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace" prove your first sentence to be as confused as almost everything else you said above.

I don't believe in a millennial temple on earth as a physical structure, either. You are answering things I never even said, or brought up. See what I mean about your posts being confusing?

It's not all Israel that will be ruling over Israel (the nations) in the millennium, anyway. The apostles were promised that they will rule over the twelve tribes of Israel, and those who will be beheaded for their testimony to Jesus are the only people who are promised that they will rule over the nations, i.e Jews and Gentiles in Christ after their resurrection.

No mortals. The New Heavens and New Earth and the millennium commence together. The rebellion at the end will take place because the sons of Adam who in the last Adam have received eternal life will believe at the close of the millennium when Satan is released one more time - like Adam did - that if they rebel against God they will not surely die (which is the lie that implies that man's eternal life/immortality is in himself rather than in Christ, who alone is immortal, who alone has life in Himself).

Whether before or after the resurrection, those who do not abide in the Vine will be cast out. Only in the Vine (Jesus) is there life. No OSAS until after the GWT.

Those who worshiped the beast will not go into the millennium, neither will anyone whose name is not found in the Lamb's Book of Life, and the Bible says nothing about their children surviving into the millennium after the earth is destroyed by fire. The nations you read about in the New Heavens and New Earth and in Revelation 20 are all resurrected saints.​

Do you or do you not accept a future 1,000 year reign of Christ on the earth?

If you don't, then of course you are confused about the Book of Revelation. So pointing out what is written in Revelation will be confusing, according to your own theological stance.

 

[The Light]

The 70th week ended circa 34 AD, and tribulation has been continuous since Calvary.

Ah, the details. Did the people of Jesus destroy the city of Jerusalem? What do you have to do make up to make this work?

Daniel 9
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

 

[covenantee]

Ah, the details. Did the people of Jesus destroy the city of Jerusalem? What do you have to do make up to make this work?

Daniel 9
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

Ah, the blindness. What do you have to do to open your eyes to Scriptural historical reality?

The grammatical antecedent/referent of "prince" in verse 26 is "Messiah the Prince" in verse 25.

Both Romans and Jews were Messiah's people used to accomplish His purposes of judgment and destruction upon Jerusalem and the nation of Israel which had rejected Him.

 

[Timtofly]

Why would I leave out this verse? It supports what I've been saying. When our earthly body is dissolved (dies/returns to dust), we have a house in heaven. Not a physical body, but a spiritual body of believers. After the physical body of faithful saints breathes its last, we ascend to heaven a spiritual body, living souls. No longer clothed in physical flesh, but a building of God, an house not made with hands, we are a spiritual body/house prepared for us by Christ.

No, we are restored to the physical bodies of the sons of God created on the 6th day. Those created on the 6th day had God's permanent incorruptible physical body. That is nothing new or a future concept. That physical body has been available since the 6th Day of creation.

The difference between the physical bodies is that one is temporary and the other permanent. One is corruption, and the other is incorruption. There is still a physical body. One is not physical as tangible, while the other is air or spirit, as you call it, intangible.

A spiritual body is still physical from God. A body is physical at all times. Spiritual just means it is from God, and not dead flesh handed down from Adam.

God's physical body is way more physical and permanent than Adam's dead corruptible flesh. This body decays, is full of the effects of sin and death, and can only return to dust.

The scene in Paradise in Revelation 7:9 shows they have physical bodies. They have had physical bodies since they left their graves on earth and have been entering Paradise for the last 1993 years. The last 1993 years John points out as great tribulation. The church's tribulation is great as in length. The Lamb has been in their midst the last almost 2 millenia.

"After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;"

Jesus entered heaven with a physical body. Elijah entered Paradise with a physical body. Moses and Elijah already had those permanent incorruptible physical bodies when they appeared on the mount of Transfiguration with Jesus. They could be seen in physical bodies. Paul said that body from God was available as soon as the soul left this body of death and decay.

Paul said the soul was naked without a physical body.

"For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life."

You have a bunch of naked souls running around in a single huge house (your huge building of believers). No. All have physical bodies, and also white garments. Those physically bodies are not naked either. The soul is not naked without a body, and the body is not naked without garments on.

Paul keeps comparing God's physical body for us as a more permanent physical body instead of a temporary tent or tabernacle. Both are still bodies. Paul said to keep all three parts blameless. 1 Thessalonians 5:23

"And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."

Paul is talking about that physical body in Paradise. This dead body returns to dust. The spirit is seperate from the physical body. Paul did not say until you physically died. He was talking about living in such a manner that would allow you to keep on enjoying body and soul and spirit for all time, including from the first century until the Second Coming.

 

[Timtofly]

That was not "the great tribulation", but there has never been "a great tribulation" to equal the destruction of Jerusalem before or since.

This is corroborated in the historical record by Josephus et al.

Ah, the blindness. What do you have to do to open your eyes to Scriptural historical reality?

Josephus is not Scriptural authority.

The Church comes out of great tribulation.

"And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

"And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book."

"For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not."

Did Michael stand up and defeat Satan in 70AD? Did many antichrists survive the destruction of Jerusalem?

If you think 70AD was bad, you have not seen this earth after the church and Holy Spirit have been removed. 70AD would be a Sunday school picnic for current apostate churches, compared to the Trumpets and Thunders.

During the Flood of Noah, 8 souls survived to re-populate the earth. No one will be left by the end of the 7th Trumpet in Adam's dead corruptible flesh. Death is also controlled by God. Some will want to die, but cannot until God decides.

"And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them."

 

[covenantee]

Josephus is not Scriptural authority.

Nor are you.

He is a recognized historian.

You're not.

 

[Zao is life]

Luke did not say that.

He wrote it. In Luke 21:23 Luke uses the word wrath.

For there shall be great distress in the land and wrath on this people.

 

[Zao is life]

"The great tribulation" appears only in Revelation 7:14.

"The" does not appear in Matthew 24:21.

When Jesus referred to "great tribulation", He was referring to the forthcoming destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD.

That was not "the great tribulation", but there has never been "a great tribulation" to equal the destruction of Jerusalem before or since.

This is corroborated in the historical record by Josephus et al.

"The" does not appear in the text in Revelation 7:14 either.

"For then shall be great tribulation" Mat.24:21

"These are the ones who came out of great tribulation and have washed their robes, and have whitened them in the blood of the Lamb." Rev.7:14

WE add the word (the) because that's the way we speak English.

"(The) Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave to Him to declare to His servants things which must shortly come to pass. And He signified it by sending His angel to His servant John".

"The" does not appear in the text in Revelation 1:1, either. We add the word because it's the way we denote that we are speaking about (the) subject of (the) Revelation or (the) subject of (the) great tribulation.

But below the text itself puts the word in:

"And immediately after the (Greek 'o) tribulation of those days, the sun shall be darkened and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from the heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken. And then the sign of the Son of man shall appear in the heavens. And then all the tribes of the earth shall mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of the heaven with power and great glory. And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other."

The Greek word 'o (the) is in the text in Mat.24:29 because this time (the) mention of tribulation is referring to the (same) great tribulation that was mentioned earlier, i.e in Mat.24:21. i.e, it's referring to something that is to take place at the time of the end and immediately before the coming of Christ. You cannot say it's not referring to the (same) great tribulation that was mentioned in Mat.24:21 without completely ignoring the rules of the grammar.

Tribulation is mentioned many times in the new Testament, but great tribulation is only mentioned three times, and Mat.24:29 makes it clear through the use of the word "the" when speaking of "the tribulation of those days" that Mat.24:29 is speaking of (the) tribulation mentioned first in Mat.24:21, where the word "the" is not used.

The great tribulation mentioned in Mat.24:21-22 is definitely not talking about 70 A.D. Neither is the abomination of desolation in the holy place.

 

[Zao is life]

"The great tribulation" appears only in Revelation 7:14.

"The" does not appear in Matthew 24:21.

When Jesus referred to "great tribulation", He was referring to the forthcoming destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD.

That was not "the great tribulation", but there has never been "a great tribulation" to equal the destruction of Jerusalem before or since.

This is corroborated in the historical record by Josephus et al.

Josephus said nothing about anything Jesus prophesied.

 

[rwb]

"The" does not appear in the text in Revelation 7:14 either.

"For then shall be great tribulation" Mat.24:21

"These are the ones who came out of great tribulation and have washed their robes, and have whitened them in the blood of the Lamb." Rev.7:14

WE add the word (the) because that's the way we speak English.

"(The) Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave to Him to declare to His servants things which must shortly come to pass. And He signified it by sending His angel to His servant John".

"The" does not appear in the text in Revelation 1:1, either. We add the word because it's the way we denote that we are speaking about (the) subject of (the) Revelation or (the) subject of (the) great tribulation.

But below the text itself puts the word in:

"And immediately after the (Greek 'o) tribulation of those days, the sun shall be darkened and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from the heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken. And then the sign of the Son of man shall appear in the heavens. And then all the tribes of the earth shall mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of the heaven with power and great glory. And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other."

The Greek word 'o (the) is in the text in Mat.24:29 because this time (the) mention of tribulation is referring to the (same) great tribulation that was mentioned earlier, i.e in Mat.24:21. i.e, it's referring to something that is to take place at the time of the end and immediately before the coming of Christ. You cannot say it's not referring to the (same) great tribulation that was mentioned in Mat.24:21 without completely ignoring the rules of the grammar.

Tribulation is mentioned many times in the new Testament, but great tribulation is only mentioned three times, and Mat.24:29 makes it clear through the use of the word "the" when speaking of "the tribulation of those days" that Mat.24:29 is speaking of (the) tribulation mentioned first in Mat.24:21, where the word "the" is not used.

The great tribulation mentioned in Mat.24:21-22 is definitely not talking about 70 A.D. Neither is the abomination of desolation in the holy place.

I'm thinking that since Christ is speaking to His disciples about things that shall greatly affect them, as well as things that shall affect the Church throughout the ages "great tribulation" by way of God's wrath did come upon "this people" when the Roman Army sacked Jerusalem destroying the Temple and city.

Luke 21:23 (KJV) But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.

For those first century Jews the wrath of God coming upon them would be like never before, not because the Temple and city had never seen devastation before, but because the Temple and city would never again be to them a blessing from God as before.

BUT...that is not the only "great tribulation" that Christ warned His disciples would come. Because while Christ was speaking to His first century Jewish disciples, more importantly He is speaking to and warning His Church on earth of "great tribulation" that was to come upon them as the Church faithfully carries out the Great Commission to take the Gospel unto all the nations of the whole world. Great tribulation that shall come against the body of Christ as the spiritual Kingdom of God is being built through the power of His Gospel and Spirit shall be even greater than the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in 70 AD.

The Church on this earth has, is and will indeed continue to suffer "great tribulation" until the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven is complete. The difference is that "great tribulation" came from the WRATH of God just as He had repeatedly warned the nation of Israel it would if they turned away from Him to worship foreign gods. But "great tribulation" that has come, is coming, and shall come upon the universal Church in this world is spiritual warfare between the forces of good and evil. It truly is greater than the destruction that came upon Jerusalem and the Temple, and once Christ has defeated the last foe, being physical death, Satan and his demonic presence with mankind shall be no more, because then all things shall be made new again.

 

[rwb]

"The great tribulation" appears only in Revelation 7:14.

"The" does not appear in Matthew 24:21.

When Jesus referred to "great tribulation", He was referring to the forthcoming destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD.

That was not "the great tribulation", but there has never been "a great tribulation" to equal the destruction of Jerusalem before or since.

This is corroborated in the historical record by Josephus et al.

I believe Jesus' warning of "great tribulation" was for both, what has come to pass to the nation of Israel by way of God's wrath. And also what shall come to pass for His Church on earth through spiritual warfare that originates from the demonic hosts and will not end until Christ comes again.

 

[rebuilder 454]

No. There is a 7 year period
It is the 70th week of Daniel


The great tribulation is shortened because if it was not there would be no flesh saved. Most think that means there will be no one left alive on the earth. That is not correct. It means if the days were not shortened, there would be no believers alive to be raptured and receive salvation in the flesh. All believers would be killed before the second harvest.


And yet the tribulation being talked about is what Satan brings against believers. The Great Tribulation is when the seed of the woman is hunted down to be killed AFTER the abomination of desolation is set up. The tribulation ENDS at the 6th seal. It is marked by the sings of the sun, moon and stars.

Then the wrath of God begins when the 7th seal is opened and the 1st trumpet sounds. Wrath is what God brings against unbelievers. The wrath of God from the time the first trumpet is blown until the armies of heaven return to the earth, lasts ONE YEAR.


No. The four horsemen are the beginning of sorrows.

Matthew 24
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

The Great Tribulation does not begin until the middle of the week when the AOD is set up.


Tribulation is over at the 6th seal.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

There is no broken up time frame when Jesus used noah and lot.
Those JUDGEMENTS were single.
Jesus used THOSE examples for the rapture.
In your interpretation, you would need some kind of period BEFORE the judgement of lesser judgement as you are asserting.
But the major dilemma you have is the billions slaughtered by the ac at the start of the gt.
That has never happened.
It says "power was given him to overcome the saints"
And that is proven with the innumerable number murdered and in heaven at soon after the start of the gt.
No way you can say the start of the gt is like the trib of today.
We used to call your position mid trib.
Now the modern students call it something else and try to place the rapture in the same timetable as the 144 k gathered.
It does not fit.
In mat 24 the 2nd coming is after the 7 yr gt.
The rapture is preflood or pretrib

 

[rebuilder 454]

I'm thinking that since Christ is speaking to His disciples about things that shall greatly affect them, as well as things that shall affect the Church throughout the ages "great tribulation" by way of God's wrath did come upon "this people" when the Roman Army sacked Jerusalem destroying the Temple and city.

Luke 21:23 (KJV) But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.

For those first century Jews the wrath of God coming upon them would be like never before, not because the Temple and city had never seen devastation before, but because the Temple and city would never again be to them a blessing from God as before.

BUT...that is not the only "great tribulation" that Christ warned His disciples would come. Because while Christ was speaking to His first century Jewish disciples, more importantly He is speaking to and warning His Church on earth of "great tribulation" that was to come upon them as the Church faithfully carries out the Great Commission to take the Gospel unto all the nations of the whole world. Great tribulation that shall come against the body of Christ as the spiritual Kingdom of God is being built through the power of His Gospel and Spirit shall be even greater than the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in 70 AD.

The Church on this earth has, is and will indeed continue to suffer "great tribulation" until the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven is complete. The difference is that "great tribulation" came from the WRATH of God just as He had repeatedly warned the nation of Israel it would if they turned away from Him to worship foreign gods. But "great tribulation" that has come, is coming, and shall come upon the universal Church in this world is spiritual warfare between the forces of good and evil. It truly is greater than the destruction that came upon Jerusalem and the Temple, and once Christ has defeated the last foe, being physical death, Satan and his demonic presence with mankind shall be no more, because then all things shall be made new again.

yes gt or the gt.
Same thing

 

[rebuilder 454]

"Only those who are of faith (the faith of Abraham in the Word of God) are the sons of Abraham".

Paul couldn't have made it any clearer.

paul said it.
I only reported what was there.
The POINT is that he established there are Jews and he is one of them.
He called the unredeemed Jews his brethren.
You cant erase it.

 

[rwb]

yes gt or the gt.
Same thing

Not exactly! There was great tribulation that came to the nation of Israel from the wrath of God, and there is great tribulation that comes against the building of the spiritual Kingdom of God through the universal Church on earth that originates from the demonic spiritual realm. Since the first century AD there has always been "great tribulation" against Christ and His Church that will not end until Christ returns. But "great tribulation" that originates from spiritual evil is always cut short so that the evil is never allowed to prevent the spiritual Kingdom of God from being completed through the Gospel proclaimed in the power of His Spirit.

 

[rebuilder 454]

No. There is a 7 year period
It is the 70th week of Daniel


The great tribulation is shortened because if it was not there would be no flesh saved. Most think that means there will be no one left alive on the earth. That is not correct. It means if the days were not shortened, there would be no believers alive to be raptured and receive salvation in the flesh. All believers would be killed before the second harvest.


And yet the tribulation being talked about is what Satan brings against believers. The Great Tribulation is when the seed of the woman is hunted down to be killed AFTER the abomination of desolation is set up. The tribulation ENDS at the 6th seal. It is marked by the sings of the sun, moon and stars.

Then the wrath of God begins when the 7th seal is opened and the 1st trumpet sounds. Wrath is what God brings against unbelievers. The wrath of God from the time the first trumpet is blown until the armies of heaven return to the earth, lasts ONE YEAR.


No. The four horsemen are the beginning of sorrows.

Matthew 24
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

The Great Tribulation does not begin until the middle of the week when the AOD is set up.


Tribulation is over at the 6th seal.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

Several problems with a mid trib rapture
You leave out that all rapture verses are pretrib and normal life , peacetime, and commerce.
Your timeframe does not fit that.
Also, Jesus said he comes after the tribulation in power and great glory.
That can only be rev 19 where he returns posttrib or the end of the 7 yr gt.

 

[rebuilder 454]

If you do not read LAMB OF GOD when you read JESUS, and if you do not read LION OF JUDAH when you read JESUS, and if you do not read ISRAEL/JACOB, NEW JERUSALEM, ONE AND ONLY COVENANT WITH GOD (= THE NEW COVENANT), HEAD OF THE CHURCH AND KING OF ISRAEL when you read JESUS, then your theology is warped.

uh, no.
When he comes as a conquering king he is not in the form of the lamb of God.
Same with your assertion.
It is not EVERYTIME we transpose israel as the church.
IOW you are partially correct, but take the dynamic into a falsehood.

 

[The Light]

There is no broken up time frame when Jesus used noah and lot.
Those JUDGEMENTS were single.
Jesus used THOSE examples for the rapture.

There are two raptures. One like the days of Noah where the flood comes 7 days after Noah is told to enter the ark and one like the days of Lot where the very day Lot left Sodom destruction came.

In your interpretation, you would need some kind of period BEFORE the judgement of lesser judgement as you are asserting.
But the major dilemma you have is the billions slaughtered by the ac at the start of the gt.
That has never happened.
It says "power was given him to overcome the saints"
And that is proven with the innumerable number murdered and in heaven at soon after the start of the gt.
No way you can say the start of the gt is like the trib of today.
We used to call your position mid trib.

There are two raptures. One before the tribulation which is the seals and one after the tribulation. Then the wrath of God begins which is one year from the first truptet until Jesus leaves heaven with His armies.

Now the modern students call it something else and try to place the rapture in the same timetable as the 144 k gathered.
It does not fit.

Of course it doesn't fit. The 144.000 are first fruits of the second harvest.

In mat 24 the 2nd coming is after the 7 yr gt.
The rapture is preflood or pretrib

In Matthew 24 the 2nd coming does NOT occur after the Great Tribulation. The second coming occurs at the 6th seal. The second advent occurs after the GT.

Here is the proof that the tribulation is OVER at the 6th seal. Then the wrath of God begins.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

The tribulation if over at the 6th seal. The Word tells us in Matthew 24, IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION. That occurs at the 6th seal, so the tribulation is over at the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal. Then God's wrath begins.

Additionally, the GT does not begin until the Abomination of Desolation is set up in the midst of the week.
I think you understand there are two raptures. One happens before the tribulation and one happens at the 6th seal. That is what you see in the harvest of Revelation 14.

When you are reading Revelation 13 and 14 you are back in the seals.

 

[rebuilder 454]

No. There is a 7 year period
It is the 70th week of Daniel


The great tribulation is shortened because if it was not there would be no flesh saved. Most think that means there will be no one left alive on the earth. That is not correct. It means if the days were not shortened, there would be no believers alive to be raptured and receive salvation in the flesh. All believers would be killed before the second harvest.


And yet the tribulation being talked about is what Satan brings against believers. The Great Tribulation is when the seed of the woman is hunted down to be killed AFTER the abomination of desolation is set up. The tribulation ENDS at the 6th seal. It is marked by the sings of the sun, moon and stars.

Then the wrath of God begins when the 7th seal is opened and the 1st trumpet sounds. Wrath is what God brings against unbelievers. The wrath of God from the time the first trumpet is blown until the armies of heaven return to the earth, lasts ONE YEAR.


No. The four horsemen are the beginning of sorrows.

Matthew 24
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

The Great Tribulation does not begin until the middle of the week when the AOD is set up.


Tribulation is over at the 6th seal.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

You quoted rev 6 :12,13
Keep reading.
That timeframe says " the wrath of the lamb."
The context you left out, is after the 7 yr gt.
Mat 24 has 2 comings.
One is pretrib.
The other is post flood or post trib post gt post wrath
All those " posts" are post 7 yr gt.
The only " prewrath" ( mid trib) is the 144k firstfruits along with the Main harvest of Jews in rev 14.