Zao is life
Well-Known Member
It's confusing, and and I know that God will only give me the full understanding of it when He wills to, and if I ask for it. I don't know who has the full understanding already, nor do I know who 'thinks' he fully understands yet doesn't. All I know is that I don't fully understand.First, I know I was not involved in this discussion between yourself and @David in NJ but I found it intriguing. Before someone tries to cut me short, hear me out.
I’ve looked at that specific scripture and though I have an opinion, I’ve never settled it fully beyond a reasonable doubt. Let me explain.
The first reason:
Rev 21:1 specifies in the NHNE there was no more sea. In apocalyptic terms, the sea was the nations of the world filled with peoples, tongues, tribes etc. The theme, there was no more sea, would be understood by that example as Christ reigning and the Kingdom(s) of the world are now his. The stone made without hands grows to a giant mountain filling the whole earth. In Rev 16:20, every isle and mountain fled away at the 7th bowl which happens in his millennial kingdom when he begins to reign at the 7th trumpet, not after he reigns 1k years.
The second reason:
Rev 21:2 mentions John seeing the New Jerusalem coming out of Heaven prepared as a Bride. That event seems to happen at the 7th Trumpet when Christ reigns before the 1k years because Rev 19:6-8 says she was made ready and wore fine linen. It would be out of place to suggest the Bride doesn’t descend from Heaven till after the 1k year reign.
The third reason:
Rev 22:8-9 show John bowing to the messenger and repeating a specific phrase after he was shown the Bride, the New Jerusalem. He repeats the event which he was shown earlier in Rev 19:10 of the Bride when she was ready. Simply, in Rev 19 John sees the Bride and adds more detail about that vision in another chapter. That would make the context of the Bride in Rev 21 and Rev 22 happen after the 7th Trumpet putting the NHNE at that time and not 1k years later.
Now, I have 2 other reasons but I will not post them because they are more opinion based than can be proved with scripture so I will omit them.
When Rev 21:4 is viewed in this light, there is conflict. And obviously, there cannot be conflict in scripture as I prefer truth and sound logic to refute falsehood. So, if we are told “there shall be no more death”, does the translation have in view immediately at that time or forward from that time to something coming future; as in after the 1k year reign. (I don’t want to debate Premill and Amill positions but just to ascertain ideas)
If we accept that it means there will be no death at that moment, how do we understand the other 3 examples I gave that imho conflict?
I realize death cannot be defeated till after the 1k year reign per Rev 20:14
That would strongly imply Rev 21:4 takes place in a NHNE after the reign. Or does “there shall be no more death” imply a time after that when death is thrown into the Lake of Fire?
I’ve looked at various commentaries and honestly, I’m not satisfied when viewing each of the verses in Rev 21:1-4. What do you think @David in NJ and @Fullness of the Gentiles
Here's what seems to be a contradiction (not that there is ever a contradiction in scripture, but it seems to me to be, because I don't fully understand):
What's said about the bride in Rev 21 seems to correlate with Revelation 19 - BUT In the new heavens and new earth, the sea no longer is, and the sea is there until it delivers up the dead in them at the close of the thousand years, at the time of the GWT:-
THE BRIDE
2 And I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down from God out of Heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her Husband. --Rev 21
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white. For the fine linen is the righteousness of the saints. --Rev 19
14 And I said to him, Sir, you know. And he said to me, These are the ones who came out of great tribulation and have washed their robes, and have whitened them in the blood of the Lamb.
15 Therefore they are before the throne of God, and they serve Him day and night in His temple. And He sitting on the throne will dwell among them.
16 They will not hunger any more, nor thirst any more, nor will the sun light on them, nor any heat.
17 For the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will feed them and will lead them to the fountains of living waters. And God will wipe away all tears from their eyes. --Rev 7
4 And God will wipe away all tears from their eyes. And there will be no more death, nor mourning, nor crying out, nor will there be any more pain; for the first things passed away. --Rev 21
8 But the fearful, and the unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, will have their part in the Lake burning with fire and brimstone, which is the second death. -- Rev 21
14 And death and hell were cast into the Lake of Fire. This is the second death.
15 And if anyone was not found having been written in the Book of Life, he was cast into the Lake of Fire. -- Rev 20
6 And a sea of glass was in front of the throne, like crystal. And in the midst of the throne, and around the throne, were four living creatures, full of eyes in front and behind. Rev 4
2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire. And those who had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God. --Rev 15.
3 saying, Do not hurt the earth or the sea or the trees until we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. --Rev 7
13 And the sea gave up the dead in it. And death and hell delivered up the dead in them. And each one of them was judged according to their works. --Rev 20
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth. For the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. And the sea no longer is. --Rev 21
In the new heavens and new earth, the sea no longer is. There is also no more death. So it can only come after the thousand years have ended.
It would be easy if the thousand years commenced before the defeat of the beast mentioned in chapter 19. But it does not. The text makes it very obvious that it does not. Those who have the seal of God on the foreheads will not worship the beast. The beast has to be there before anyone can be killed for not receiving its/his mark.
It would also be easy if the New Testament epistles were full of assurances that Satan is currently bound. But the opposite is the case. The epistles are full of warnings about Satan the prince of the power of the air roaming the earth full of wiles who we need to resist in with the full armor of God.
Last edited: