WAR IN ISRAEL — PROPHECY

[David in NJ]

I hope you're not insinuating that I don't, David. You may remember Jesus's exhortation/reprimand to/of Peter:

"What God has made clean, do not call common." [Acts 10:15]​

​

You believe that, right? And that that exhortation/reprimand goes for all of us as believers? Maybe not...


I'm wide open to conversation, as I said, David, but this kind of (fill in the blank here...) ~ ~ very often makes good conversation with pre-trib folks very hard, if not impossible. But hey, if you want to give it a go, let's do it.

Psssst. A metaphor is quite different, generally speaking, than a symbol...

Grace and peace to you.

YES, i insinuated that BOTH myself and yourself and the rest on here must start believing every word that has proceeded from the Mouth of God.

For anyone to assume that they truly "believe" every word in the way that Christ meant it, would be delusional/religious fantasy.

On paper, we believe the Scriptures are from God.
In Spirit is another Dimension that opens up to us by Faith - in His Word.

Not any one of us knows all things - BUT - we are commanded by the LORD to believe ALL words that have been given to us from God.

We do not believe by study but by Faith = in our Heavenly Father's Word.
Study comes after and is continuous, as is Faith, Hope and Love.
The Greatest of these is LOVE = not worldly love but the Love that came down from Heaven for us.

"Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God." - 2 Corinthians 7:1

"Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God."
Hebrews 12:1-2

Peace and Grace to ALL who hold to these things

 

[Timtofly]

OK let me ask you this question: In which passage of scripture are the following words found?:

"They are before the throne of God, and they serve Him day and night in His temple. And He sitting on the throne will dwell among them. They will not hunger any more, nor thirst any more, nor will the sun light on them, nor any heat.
For the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will feed them and will lead them to the fountains of living waters. And God will wipe away all tears from their eyes.
To him who thirsts I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely. And there will be no more death, nor mourning, nor crying out. And God will wipe away all tears from their eyes."

Actually, the above scriptures are quoted from two separate chapters in the Revelation: The one is talking about the rewards of those who come out from great tribulation at the time of the return of Christ, the other about the new heavens and new earth (Revelation 7 & Revelation 21).

Those who come out of great tribulation are not coming out of it 1,000 years before the NHNE, according to the above.

And that's only one example. There are quite a few more.

Except that scene from Revelation 7 has been true since 30AD, over 1993 years ago.

The scene in Revelation 21 is over 1,000 years away. When John wrote Revelation, Revelation 7:9-20 was already a reality.

"After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb."

Revelation 21 was at least 2900 years in the future when John wrote Revelation. The fulness of the Gentiles was never associated with the Millennium after the Second Coming.

 

[No Pre-TB]

Now that's the way I like it. When someone can actually show me from scripture why what I say doesn't agree with what is written.

Thank you.

PS: Unlike so many who post in these boards I'm always only interested in what scripture is saying, not what I want scripture to be saying. And you are correct in what you pointed out above. Thanks. It means a lot to me to have a false notion I had corrected - but only when someone points to scripture and what it is saying the way you did above. In many cases people point to their own interpretations of what the scripture is saying, like I was doing until now regarding when the NHNE commences.

First, I know I was not involved in this discussion between yourself and @David in NJ but I found it intriguing. Before someone tries to cut me short, hear me out.

I’ve looked at that specific scripture and though I have an opinion, I’ve never settled it fully beyond a reasonable doubt. Let me explain.

The first reason:
Rev 21:1 specifies in the NHNE there was no more sea. In apocalyptic terms, the sea was the nations of the world filled with peoples, tongues, tribes etc. The theme, there was no more sea, would be understood by that example as Christ reigning and the Kingdom(s) of the world are now his. The stone made without hands grows to a giant mountain filling the whole earth. In Rev 16:20, every isle and mountain fled away at the 7th bowl which happens in his millennial kingdom when he begins to reign at the 7th trumpet, not after he reigns 1k years.

The second reason:
Rev 21:2 mentions John seeing the New Jerusalem coming out of Heaven prepared as a Bride. That event seems to happen at the 7th Trumpet when Christ reigns before the 1k years because Rev 19:6-8 says she was made ready and wore fine linen. It would be out of place to suggest the Bride doesn’t descend from Heaven till after the 1k year reign.

The third reason:
Rev 22:8-9 show John bowing to the messenger and repeating a specific phrase after he was shown the Bride, the New Jerusalem. He repeats the event which he was shown earlier in Rev 19:10 of the Bride when she was ready. Simply, in Rev 19 John sees the Bride and adds more detail about that vision in another chapter. That would make the context of the Bride in Rev 21 and Rev 22 happen after the 7th Trumpet putting the NHNE at that time and not 1k years later.

Now, I have 2 other reasons but I will not post them because they are more opinion based than can be proved with scripture so I will omit them.

When Rev 21:4 is viewed in this light, there is conflict. And obviously, there cannot be conflict in scripture as I prefer truth and sound logic to refute falsehood. So, if we are told “there shall be no more death”, does the translation have in view immediately at that time or forward from that time to something coming future; as in after the 1k year reign. (I don’t want to debate Premill and Amill positions but just to ascertain ideas)
If we accept that it means there will be no death at that moment, how do we understand the other 3 examples I gave that imho conflict?
I realize death cannot be defeated till after the 1k year reign per Rev 20:14
That would strongly imply Rev 21:4 takes place in a NHNE after the reign. Or does “there shall be no more death” imply a time after that when death is thrown into the Lake of Fire?

I’ve looked at various commentaries and honestly, I’m not satisfied when viewing each of the verses in Rev 21:1-4. What do you think @David in NJ and @Fullness of the Gentiles

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Wrong time

Zechariah 14 was fulfilled in first coming of Christ. It tells us about the fall of Old Testament congregation. Making the way for remnants to flee into the New Testament congregation where Christians observe the feast of tabernacle since Pentecost.

Nothing to do with current war in Israel today.

While I agree it has nothing to do with war today.

Zech 14 has not happened yet.

Then the Lord will go forth
And fight against those nations,
As He fights in the day of battle.
4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,
Which faces Jerusalem on the east.
And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two,
From east to west,
Making a very large valley;
Half of the mountain shall move toward the north
And half of it toward the south.

This is yet future

 

[Eternally Grateful]

But who said Zechariah 14 was at His second coming? Was it God's Word itself or you and your teachers? Did you not read my previous posts, or better yet the passage in question? Where does it say the Lord defeated the nations? Look at the verse you quoted--do you think the Lord went forth against those nations and didn't defeat them? Doesn't the context show He defeated them? So your question seems contrived. We can see from comparing Scripture with Scripture that to understand the symbolism we need to recognize that Jerusalem, the holy city and bride of God, is representative of the congregation, the People of God. In the Old Testament, that was the Jews (Israel). Zechariah 14 is in reference to their captivity, the apostasy that had gripped THAT congregation, and this warfare in His congregation (Matthew 11:12) that ushers in the Messiah Himself and His messianic peace, comfort and the (millennial) Kingdom age. This time of Christ's first advent is when the Lord defeated the nations/gentiles that came against His people. Not Roman armies, not every physical nation in the world, and not at the end times in His second advent, but these nations were defeated by the Lord and by His army in their testimony. That's not rhetoric but confirmed by Scripture. It was by the shedding of His blood that they were defeated.

Daniel 9:26

• "And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined."

Indeed the people of the Prince ARE THE JEWS who did destroy the city and sanctuary, and consequently, the kingdom was taken from them and given to another. These were the nations that came against Jerusalem, as Christ this Prince, was delivered to the Gentiles for crucifixion by His own people! Selah! This language of delivering to the Gentiles is not coincidental, as it illustrates His people were working as Gentiles against their own Prince. Look, the word, "Gentiles" simply means anyone is not a Jew, an alien or foreigner from Israel. Anyone who is not the true Jews or children of God are spiritually Gentiles (Revelation 3:9) and at war in Jerusalem. Doesn't matter if you say you are a Jew by bloodline, you are not one in God's eyes. There was no "physical war" going on in Jerusalem when Christ came, so why do you think God prophesied Christ's coming to end Jerusalem's warfare (Isiah 40:1-2) and to bring comfort to her? These are questions that many teachers ignore because it illustrates vividly that the Lord spoke this way. While they want to keep holding to an idea that understanding and city spiritually is of men rather than of God. But the Biblical fact is, she indeed was at war, but not warfare as the world defines it, but as God's Word does. Not by all the literal/physical nations battling against her with guns and missiles as the world defines it, but as God does. Rather it is a spiritual war between two different generations or families, one the messengers and children of Satan and the other the messengers or children of God. It is a war of WORD that comes out of their mouths, not guns! Even as Revelation 12 also depicts. The end result was that Christ came to the mount of Olives (signifying the anointed kingdom), came to Jerusalem as King, freed the children held in captivity, in bondage of Satan and his minions, and judged those who fought against Him. Not in worldly Premillennialists terms, but spiritual.

Zechariah 12:89

• "In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.
• And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
• And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn."

The only real question is, when Christ poured out His Spirit of grace upon the house of David (Pentecost), how was Jerusalem under siege by all the nations, and how did God seek to destroy all the nations that came against Jerusalem? When you answer that question honestly, you know that this never spoke of a physical/literal war or nations!! The Lord did defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem and did destroy the nations that came up against her and He did pour out His spirit upon the house of David, and they did look upon Him whom they had pierced. Could it be anymore clearer?!?! It is DONE! Christ accomplished this at the cross. And they did mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, as also confirmed yet again in John 19.

John 19:36-37

• "For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken.
• And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced."

It's not scripture "yet" to be fulfilled, it's Scripture already fulfilled! We just need to take God's word as authoritative, rather than listen to the self-serving denials of men snared in Premillennial/Judaism/Zionism - like those who spent time watching youtube on ongoing Israel-Hamas war.



Nope. That is NOT what Scripture says, that's what Premillenarians or Premillennialists say. We should remember to keep that distinction clear so as not to confuse God's actual word with their personal opinions or interpretations. There is no mention of Russia coming against Israel in the end times. It is "the Lord" that fights against the nations that came against Jerusalem. It's a spiritual warfare and a Spiritual desolation and restoration. A Spiritual Temple, City and Reign, a Spiritual Kingdom, rule and a Spiritual King, Spiritual living water and splitting mountain. It's not Physical/Literal.

Zechariah 14:3

• "Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle."

Did the Lord fight against the nations with Jets, bombs and was Iran or Russia the key players? Where is this stated in Scripture? It isn't! The real question is "how" did the Lord fight for the people of Jerusalem? Was it a physical battle among His congregation with physical armies setting Israel free from her enemies, or did He fight for them spiritually, fee them Spiritually and restore them Spiritually? When God talks about going forth fighting against the nations/gentiles to help Jerusalem who is besieged, He is illustrating that there was a battle going on in His congregation (represented by Jerusalem) and He would judge those that have forced His people into captivity.

Revelation 12:7-11

• "And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
• And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
• And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
• And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
• And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death."

When was the great accuser cast down and salvation and the strength of His kingdom went forth, all the victory of His messengers accomplished strictly by the blood of the Lamb and the word of their testimony! You seem, it;'s not a battle of swords, guns, Russia or right in front of God's throne in Heaven, but in the kingdom of heaven ON Earth. The Old Testament congregation.

So I would agree with you that it is INCREDIBLE that not very many have a spiritual understanding of God's Word here!

Sorry bro.

We do not spiritualize prophecy..

Prophecy is God saying something will happen. and it happens..

otherwise anyone can make prophecy say whatever they want it to.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I am a follower of Scripture. Zechariah 14 has been fulfilled...spiritually. Sorry.

Can't do more for you since you obviously refuse to receive the understanding since you rather have the World News to interpret your Scripture. Tsk tsk.

It has not been fulfilled

It will be fulfilled

whether we like it or not. When God says it will happen. it will

 

[Eternally Grateful]

If Satan was not bound at the Cross, we are not saved.

Satan is not bound to keep us unsaved.

he is bound so he can not deceive the nations.

Anyone who thinks he is not deceiving nations today. well I wonder what they are thinking

 

[Eternally Grateful]

It’s interesting that from Zechariah chapters 12-14 it repeatedly states “in that day” and also refers to events that happened during the first advent of Jesus. This shows that all of the events in those chapters happened around the days of Jesus fi coming.

so when did Jesus stand on the mount of Olives. When he he split it in two. When were NATIONS gathered against Jerusalem?

In Jesus day not only was Jerusalem a Roman province.. Only rome surrounded and attacked her (in 70 AD) not nations.

non of the events in zech 14 have happened yet

 

[PinSeeker]

YES, i insinuated that BOTH myself and yourself and the rest on here must start believing every word that has proceeded from the Mouth of God.

For anyone to assume that they truly "believe" every word in the way that Christ meant it, would be delusional/religious fantasy.

On paper, we believe the Scriptures are from God.
In Spirit is another Dimension that opens up to us by Faith - in His Word.

Not any one of us knows all things - BUT - we are commanded by the LORD to believe ALL words that have been given to us from God.

We do not believe by study but by Faith = in our Heavenly Father's Word.
Study comes after and is continuous, as is Faith, Hope and Love.
The Greatest of these is LOVE = not worldly love but the Love that came down from Heaven for us.

"Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God." - 2 Corinthians 7:1

"Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God."
Hebrews 12:1-2

Peace and Grace to ALL who hold to these things

Yes, we are filthy, rotten scoundrels (sinners)... ... so nothing about us is perfect, including our belief, even we who believe. So, in the manner of the father of the boy in Mark 9, one of our continuous prayers is (should be), "Lord, I believe; help my unbelief." Fine, I agree; this is very true. Now. Do you want to talk, or do you just want to preach?

Grace and peace to you.

 

[David in NJ]

Yes, nothing about us is perfect, including our belief, even we who believe. Fine. Do you want to talk, or do you just want to preach?

Grace and peace to you.

Well, talking is for those who talk.

We should be ministering the Word to each other.

See then that you walk circumspectly, not as fools but as wise, 16redeeming the time, because the days are evil.

17Therefore do not be unwise, but understand what the will of the Lord is. 18And do not be drunk with wine, in which is dissipation; but be filled with the Spirit, 19speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord, 20giving thanks always for all things to God the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, 21submitting to one another in the fear of God

 

[David in NJ]

so when did Jesus stand on the mount of Olives. When he he split it in two. When were NATIONS gathered against Jerusalem?

In Jesus day not only was Jerusalem a Roman province.. Only rome surrounded and attacked her (in 70 AD) not nations.

non of the events in zech 14 have happened yet

agree, as it is crystal clear

no need for a scientific evaluation of that which God made 'simple' for us children to see

 

[PinSeeker]

Well, talking is for those who talk. We should be ministering the Word to each other.

Oh, good Lord. <eyeroll> Goodness gracious. Okay, do you want to join with me in ministering the Word to each other?

Grace and peace to you.

 

[David in NJ]

Oh, good Lord. <eyeroll> Goodness gracious. Okay, do you want to join with me in ministering the Word to each other?

Grace and peace to you.

It should be your Joy in the Lord to do so.

"Now I myself am confident concerning you, my brethren, that you also are full of goodness, filled with all knowledge, able also to admonish one another. " - (hands lifted up in praise)

 

[David in NJ]

First, I know I was not involved in this discussion between yourself and @David in NJ but I found it intriguing. Before someone tries to cut me short, hear me out.

I’ve looked at that specific scripture and though I have an opinion, I’ve never settled it fully beyond a reasonable doubt. Let me explain.

The first reason:
Rev 21:1 specifies in the NHNE there was no more sea. In apocalyptic terms, the sea was the nations of the world filled with peoples, tongues, tribes etc. The theme, there was no more sea, would be understood by that example as Christ reigning and the Kingdom(s) of the world are now his. The stone made without hands grows to a giant mountain filling the whole earth. In Rev 16:20, every isle and mountain fled away at the 7th bowl which happens in his millennial kingdom when he begins to reign at the 7th trumpet, not after he reigns 1k years.

The second reason:
Rev 21:2 mentions John seeing the New Jerusalem coming out of Heaven prepared as a Bride. That event seems to happen at the 7th Trumpet when Christ reigns before the 1k years because Rev 19:6-8 says she was made ready and wore fine linen. It would be out of place to suggest the Bride doesn’t descend from Heaven till after the 1k year reign.

The third reason:
Rev 22:8-9 show John bowing to the messenger and repeating a specific phrase after he was shown the Bride, the New Jerusalem. He repeats the event which he was shown earlier in Rev 19:10 of the Bride when she was ready. Simply, in Rev 19 John sees the Bride and adds more detail about that vision in another chapter. That would make the context of the Bride in Rev 21 and Rev 22 happen after the 7th Trumpet putting the NHNE at that time and not 1k years later.

Now, I have 2 other reasons but I will not post them because they are more opinion based than can be proved with scripture so I will omit them.

When Rev 21:4 is viewed in this light, there is conflict. And obviously, there cannot be conflict in scripture as I prefer truth and sound logic to refute falsehood. So, if we are told “there shall be no more death”, does the translation have in view immediately at that time or forward from that time to something coming future; as in after the 1k year reign. (I don’t want to debate Premill and Amill positions but just to ascertain ideas)
If we accept that it means there will be no death at that moment, how do we understand the other 3 examples I gave that imho conflict?
I realize death cannot be defeated till after the 1k year reign per Rev 20:14
That would strongly imply Rev 21:4 takes place in a NHNE after the reign. Or does “there shall be no more death” imply a time after that when death is thrown into the Lake of Fire?

I’ve looked at various commentaries and honestly, I’m not satisfied when viewing each of the verses in Rev 21:1-4. What do you think @David in NJ and @Fullness of the Gentiles

@No Pre-TB says: The second reason:
Rev 21:2 mentions John seeing the New Jerusalem coming out of Heaven prepared as a Bride. That event seems to happen at the 7th Trumpet when Christ reigns before the 1k years because Rev 19:6-8 says she was made ready and wore fine linen. It would be out of place to suggest the Bride doesn’t descend from Heaven till after the 1k year reign.

Reevaluate that which i highlighted of your speculation here.

 

[PinSeeker]

It should be your Joy in the Lord to do so.

LOL! It very much is. So do you want to do it? Or do you just want to continue to preach... and dodge...?

Grace and peace to you.

 

[No Pre-TB]

@No Pre-TB says: The second reason:
Rev 21:2 mentions John seeing the New Jerusalem coming out of Heaven prepared as a Bride. That event seems to happen at the 7th Trumpet when Christ reigns before the 1k years because Rev 19:6-8 says she was made ready and wore fine linen. It would be out of place to suggest the Bride doesn’t descend from Heaven till after the 1k year reign.

Reevaluate that which i highlighted of your speculation here.

Are you suggesting the resurrection of the dead returning with Christ happens after the 1k year reign?

 

[David in NJ]

Are you suggesting the resurrection of the dead returning with Christ happens after the 1k year reign?

Absolutely NOT

 

[David in NJ]

LOL! It very much is. So do you want to do it? Or do you just want to continue to preach... and dodge...?

Grace and peace to you.

i will be off-line for the rest of the day - see you after 7pm

 

[Davy]

@No Pre-TB says: The second reason:
Rev 21:2 mentions John seeing the New Jerusalem coming out of Heaven prepared as a Bride. That event seems to happen at the 7th Trumpet when Christ reigns before the 1k years because Rev 19:6-8 says she was made ready and wore fine linen. It would be out of place to suggest the Bride doesn’t descend from Heaven till after the 1k year reign.

Reevaluate that which i highlighted of your speculation here.

The Ezekiel 40 thru 47 chapters, especially Ezekiel 47, suggests the new Jerusalem will descend to earth with Christ's future return. That is the Millennium temple details being given there from which Jesus and His elect will reign from for the 1,000 years. Manifested along with it is God's River of the waters of life, and the Tree of Life on either side of that River.

Per Rev.22:14-15 the "gates into the city" are manifest then which points to the "gates" described back in Rev.21, while the wicked are still there, outside those gates, which reveals Millennium time, because the wicked are not cast into the "lake of fire" until the end of the 1,000 years.

That means for Christ's future Millennial reign, there's going to be some earth changes that happen at His coming, but still not yet the new heavens and a new earth timing.

 

[No Pre-TB]

Absolutely NOT

Your thought?