I hear ya... anytime anyone mentions "law" people start flipping out!
So, it's not a bad idea to explain things in a way as to not mention the dreaded L word
Christ Saved Us... What Do Good Works Do?
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I hear ya... anytime anyone mentions "law" people start flipping out!
So, it's not a bad idea to explain things in a way as to not mention the dreaded L word
So, the logical conclusion of your eisegesis (ie, your desire to define away "prize" as not having to do with eternal life--whereas "eternal life" is referred to as a "crown of life") is that it would be perfectly fine if a Christian were to be a slave to their bodily passions, instead of making their body their slave, that it would be perfectly fine to commit immorality, to crave, to commit idolatry, and to, on account of these things, fall under God's wrath, and forfeit God's promise--these would all be perfectly fine for you, and you would call this "saved".
Saved from what?
Not from sin--you said it's OK to be a slave of sin.
Not from God's wrath on sinners--you say that's perfectly fine.
Not from death--you said it's fine if you don't "lay hold on eternal life", but forfeit the Promise of God.
What exactly are you "saved" from, then?
Well, in the conversations I have, it isn't pivotal, since they'll just argue that "yeah we do fulfill Christ's Law, because we're saved--we don't do it to become saved", so you have to find another point to argue.
I gotta give the glory to God, because I got all of it through prayer.
I was tormented for over a decade trying to reconcile all of the seemingly irreconcilable concepts, and I only got answers when I received the grace of prayer from other Christians.
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mailmandan
Well-Known Member
Enough with the straw man arguments and slander. It does not help your case. The Bible mentions multiple crowns in scripture which does not negate prize.
A Criswell observes that "Paul's assurance of salvation (cf. 2Ti 1:12) and his confidence in the security of the believer (cf. Ro 8:30, 31) go hand-in-hand with self-discipline and watchfulness (1Co 10:12). There is no hint of any possible loss of salvation in the text. Paul disciplines himself rigorously so that he will not become "disqualified." This final word is adokimos (Gk.), suggesting the idea of "disapproved." Paul does not fear loss of salvation, but rather loss of his work and influence as a minister of Christ. (Believer's Study Bible: New King James Version. 1991. Thomas Nelson)
Vine says that adokimos "does not mean a castaway, as in the authorized version., but disapproved as a result of not standing the test, and here it means disapproved, and so rejected from present testimony, with loss of future reward. Such a possibility should be so appalling and abhorrent to any servant of Christ, that he should follow the apostle’s example, which is here given, not simply as a record of his own life, but as a guide to us in all our circumstances. We need to remember also that the apostle is here speaking of the responsibility and joy of winning souls for Christ (Context = 1Co 9:22, 23). To save others should be the pursuit of our lives. The conflict and its issues are so tremendous, that we should never forgo any means of spiritual strength. (Vine, W. Collected writings of W. E. Vine. Nashville: Thomas Nelson )
mailmandan
Well-Known Member
You said - "don't just make an empty claim, lying about how you've provided a sufficient response to the truth of Scripture. Your Johnny Come Lately belief structure is a joke, and just makes a mess of Scripture."
You also said - "So, the logical conclusion of your eisegesis (ie, your desire to define away "prize" as not having to do with eternal life--whereas "eternal life" is referred to as a "crown of life") is that it would be perfectly fine if a Christian were to be a slave to their bodily passions, instead of making their body their slave, that it would be perfectly fine to commit immorality, to crave, to commit idolatry, and to, on account of these things, fall under God's wrath, and forfeit God's promise--these would all be perfectly fine for you, and you would call this "saved".
Finally you said- "Saved from what?
Not from sin--you said it's OK to be a slave of sin.
Not from God's wrath on sinners--you say that's perfectly fine."
LIKE I SAID. STRAW MAN ARGUMANTS AND SLANDER.
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Ha ha! Slander!
If one disagrees with the OSAS peoples... they get offended and claim you are slandering them!
Just like the baby killing liberal perverts, they cannot accept disagreement! What a bunch of sissies!
If one disagrees with the OSAS peoples... they get offended and claim you are slandering them!
Just like the baby killing liberal perverts, they cannot accept disagreement! What a bunch of sissies!
mailmandan
Well-Known Member
Typical troll behavior. You are no stranger to slander either. Also, being an agitator is not a fruit of the Spirit.
Well Jesus and His Apostles sure gave the false teachers a hard time! They did their fair share of trash talking.
In fact, Jesus was very highly rude to those who claimed to know the truth but didn't and instead were misleading the people preventing them from having a relationship with the Lord.... just like the OSAS peoples are doing today!
Besides, if you were truly convinced that your position was right and correct.... you wouldn't be getting offended when someone tells you that you are wrong.
In fact, by getting offended... that tells me that deep down inside somewhere, you know you have some stuff wrong about the Lord and don't want to admit it.
For me, I know ALL of God's Word is true... so if someone rejects the scriptures... it makes no never mind to me and I don't take it personal because they aren't rejecting me, no they are rejecting the Lord.
Personally, I don't care what people say about me. I outgrew that long time ago. They can say whatever they want about me... they can even talk trash 'bout my momma and them and I forgive and couldn't give a fat rat's back side.... it's like water off a ducks back
mailmandan
Well-Known Member
Your psychological games won't work on me. You are not fooling me for one second. Let me know when you find yourself a good Bible believing Christian church where you can learn the truth and have fellowship with genuine Christians.
This is not a straw man, it is an allegation of deception.
How did I misrepresent your view? That's precisely what you believe when you say that what Paul characterizes in 1 Co 10 is fine if it described a Christian's life--you said it's not an issue of eternal life repaid only to the righteous (so, apparently, you think all of that sin is actually righteousness).
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It's not slander when someone shows you what you unknowingly are saying.
You've never had an answer, and you don't have one now.
The only way you will have an answer is if you humble yourself and admit your error.
I can't believe the impossible position you put yourself in by adopting such an ignorant view as OSAS, Faith Alone, and these other Johnny-Come-Lately views--things unknown, foreign, to early Christianity!
It's much easier for me to make my argument because the truth is self-evident!
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quietthinker
Well-Known Member
Christ Saved Us... What Do Good Works Do?
They make it easy for others to malign you......but the question is, how are good works qualified?
mailmandan
Well-Known Member
I'm not unknowingly saying what you are falsely accusing me of saying so it's slander on your part.
Discernment.....Brother...
Romans 8:7-9 NKJV
Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.How can a Born Again understand the word of man.
You’ve only got to read some posts to see, that they are in total confusion..are they speaking the Living word of God.......or are they speaking in their own lingo?...leading themselves through scripture in the flesh?......I see a lot of flesh talk on this page.........in my opinion.
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Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
well lets see,
Before we were saved, the best we could accomplish was works of the flesh.
After we are saved, we have been made a new creature. the old has passed away, all things have become new. Good works are now not only normal for us. but they come naturally. Where before we had to love self, now we do not. Because God loves us unconditionally. So we can pass this love on to others. which by definition is what Good works is.
works are a byproduct of being saved by Grace THROUGH faith. (eph 2: 8-10)
mailmandan
Well-Known Member
It's common for works-salvationists to confuse 'descriptive' passages of scripture with 'prescriptive' passages of scripture. In John 5:28-29, *notice that ALL who come forth unto the resurrection of life (believers - vs. 24) are described as those who have done good and ALL that come forth unto the resurrection of damnation (unbelievers) are described as those who have done evil.
What did Jesus say in John 3:18? - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, (because he has not done enough good deeds? NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Are believers described as "those who have done good" or those who have done evil?" Answer - those who have done good.
Are unbelievers described as those "who have done evil" or "those who have done good?" Answer - those who have done evil.
If one reads Romans 2:5-11 in isolation from the rest of the book of Romans, one might conclude that Paul was teaching salvation by works. However, as you read and study these passages, it’s critical to keep in mind that these verses do not describe how one becomes saved, but the way the saved conduct their lives. These works done are the result of, not the means or basis of receiving eternal life.
So patient continuance in well doing, seeking for glory, honor, and immortality; (vs. 7) is not at all set forth as the means of their procuring eternal life, but as a description of those to whom God does render life eternal.
*Notice that ALL who receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does good (vs. 10). Good deeds flow from a heart that is saved and evil deeds flow from a heart that is unsaved. Verse 8 - but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath.
*Notice that ALL who do not receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does evil (vs. 9). What those passages convey is that though our deeds are judged by God, it's not the good deeds themselves which are the basis or means by which we receive eternal life, but the type of deeds expose our heart condition and salvation status.
These good deeds done out of faith are the fruit, but not the root of salvation. If Paul wanted to teach that we are saved by works, then he would have clearly stated that we are saved through faith and works in Ephesians 2:8 and that we are justified by faith and works in Romans 5:1 but that is clearly NOT what Paul said. *Also see (Romans 3:24-28; 4:4-6; 11:6; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..).
The one who is continuously (Greek present tense) sowing to his own corrupt, flesh which is opposed to God and unrenewed by the Holy Spirit (descriptive of unbelievers) shall of the flesh reap corruption. Our life here is sowing of one kind or another. But he who sows to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap everlasting life. In opposition to reaping corruption, eternal life is reaped by those who sow to the Spirit. (descriptive of believers)
1 Corinthians 6:9 - Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God. Verses 9 and 10 is 'descriptive' of the unrighteous and not the righteous. You seemed to have missed that.
In Galatians 5:19-21, we read - Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
1 John 3:9 - No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
*You need to properly harmonize scripture with scripture before reaching your conclusion on doctrine.*
CONTINUED...
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mailmandan
Well-Known Member
You remain under the delusion that "repay each person according to his deeds" means each person will receive eternal life based on the merits of his good deeds and earn eternal life. Elsewhere in scripture, the apostle Paul said: Romans 4:4 - Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works.
Paul also said that we are saved by grace through faith, not works. (Ephesians 2:8,9) He also said that it was not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us.. Furthermore, he said that God saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began. (1 Timothy 1:9) So you have some rethinking to do.
Jude 1:5 - Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord at one time delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. That is the heart of the issue of being an idolater which is descriptive of the unrighteous in 1 Corinthians 6.
That is a lie. More slander on your part. It absolutely is an issue of not inheriting the kingdom of God for the unrighteous and I never said otherwise. You need to stop with the false accusations.
Oh, the irony! Your true colors are really showing now, and I hope you realize that slander is sin and slanderers are mentioned alongside of haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil in Romans 1:30. Through your continued slanderous remarks, you just exposed your heart. (Luke 6:45)
mailmandan
Well-Known Member
1 Corinthians 2:14 - But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. Root cause of their confusion.
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