Half-baked Eucharist

[Webers_Home]

The Catholic system in which I grew up; the congregation was never
permitted to consume the wine element. So all those years I apparently
observed the Lord's supper incorrectly; and if incorrectly, then I was robbed
because according to the Lord's testimony as an expert witness in matters
related to the procedure of his own supper; it's necessary to consume both
elements in order to be blessed with eternal life.

†. John 6:53 . . Jesus said to them: I tell you the truth, unless you eat the
flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.

†. John 6:54 . .Whoso eats my flesh, and drinks my blood, has eternal life.

Everybody has to drink the cup for themselves; no exceptions. Designating a
clergyman to drink the cup for the whole congregation is not the correct
procedure.

†. Mtt 26:27-28 . . He took the cup, gave thanks and offered it to them,
saying: Drink from it, all of you.

What was in the cup?

†. Mtt 26:29 . . I tell you: I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now
on until that day when I drink it anew with you in my Father's kingdom.

According to Acts 2:5-15, new wine is quite sufficient to get people
hammered. But the vine beverage in the supper's cup isn't stipulated to be
new. This tells me that it isn't mandatory to use a fermented liquid for
communion services-- which is a good thing because here in the USA it's
illegal to give alcohol to minors.

But my point is: if the congregation is to be denied the cup portion of
communion; then why even bother? You might as well take everybody to a
sports bar for an early brunch and forget about church altogether.

Buen Camino
/

 

[aspen]

Not sure what your point is......

All Catholics are allowed to take the Blood and Body of Christ today.

 

[Webers_Home]

.

All Catholics are allowed to take the Blood and Body of Christ today

Apparently Vatican II ruled that Catholics can now consume the wine
element. But what about all those pre Vatican II Catholics? What's to
become of them?

Well; if what Jesus testified at John 6:53-54 can be assumed true and
reliable; then all those pre Vatican II Catholics were dead men walking, and
in grave danger of eternal suffering; because it's necessary to obtain eternal
life in order to be safe from retribution.

†. John 5:24 . . I assure you: those who listen to my message, and believe
in God who sent me, have eternal life. They will never be condemned for
their sins, but they have already passed from death into life.

There's an additional situation associated with eternal life. According to
God's testimony as an expert witness in all matters pertaining to His own
son: those pre Vatican II Catholics who were denied eternal life via the wine
element; were consequently denied Christ too.

†. 1John 5:11-12 . . And this is what God has testified: He has given us
eternal life, and this life is in His son. So whoever has God's son has the life;
whoever does not have the life, does not have His son.

Christlessness is an extremely hazardous spiritual condition.

†. Rom 8:9 . . If anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not
belong to Christ.

Buen Camino
/

 

[whitestone]

Yes, nothing but problems dealing with a church organization, no life there.

But run to Jesus and curl up in His bosom and lean your head on His Breast in Love, having your sins washed away in immersion in the water, raised up in Newness of Life, being filled with His Holy Spirit and eating His body and drinking His Blood, you have eternal Life!

He's joyfully awaiting His Children to run to Him like this :)

 

[aspen]

Both elements - the Blood and Body of Christ are fully Christ. Taking one or both gives us the full experience of receiving Christ.

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

Do the Catholics not dip the wafer (bread) into the wine before it is handed out ? At least that is what I thought.

If so , the debate would be whether one drop (of wine) is sufficient .... (I would think so)

But run to Jesus and curl up in His bosom and lean your head on His Breast in Love,

Do you mean his literal bosom and breast .... or symbolic ?

What was in the cup?

†. Mtt 26:29 . . I tell you: I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now
on until that day when I drink it anew with you in my Father's kingdom.

Another interesting point you have brought out Weber .... Jesus now calls the contents of the cup "fruit of the vine" instead of "my blood"

==============
aspen .... on another thread you said you experienced something special when you had the (Catholic) Communion. (Hope I said that right) I find that interesting , and I recognize the sincerity of it's meaning for you.

--I have had Catholic communion a couple of times as a guest (wafer dipped in wine)

--My typical (protestant type) church has communion once every month and it is a small tumbler of wine and small square of bread that we all take back to our seats and then consume it all at the same time (after the pastor says a prayer).

-- But the only time I felt something special (seemingly from the Lord) was at a Mennonite church (as a guest) . The special part was not the Mennonite aspect , but how they did communion.

-- Everyone formed a circle , one loaf of bread was passed around and we each tore a chunk off with our own hands , then a cup of wine was passed around and each of us took a sip out of that same cup.

--Something special happened , and I am sure it was the same for everybody ..... hard to explain .... but it was like we were pulling a piece off Jesus body (the loaf of bread) .... and when sharing the cup .... it was like Jesus was there sipping the cup with us. Like a moment of complete unity.

I will never forget it. Hard to explain those special experiences .

Interesting discussion. The older I get , and the longer I am a Christian , the more important communion becomes to me.

 

[Foreigner]

Apparently Vatican II ruled that Catholics can now consume the wine
element. But what about all those pre Vatican II Catholics? What's to
become of them?

- What becomes of them? If they accepted Jesus as their Savior, they're now in heaven.
Just like great Christians like Smith Wigglesworth and C.S. Lewis, who never partook in the Catholic Eucharist.
It is not required for salvation.

During the years I was a Catholic I was taught that the Eucharist was necessary for Salvation and if you didn't partake you are lost.
Several years after I left they softened it to "it is very helpful in keeping you close to Christ and it is much more difficult to be saved if you do not partake of it."

Yet another Catholic example of "God's requirements are written in stone"......until they aren't.

Both elements - the Blood and Body of Christ are fully Christ. Taking one or both gives us the full experience of receiving Christ.

-- But you can have as least as deep of a "full experience" if you pray to God with your whole heart, prayerfully study His Word or Pray in the Spirit.
Those actions require full personal pro-active involvement. They involve sincere action and sincere effort.

Simply walking up to the front of the chuch to have someone hand you a piece of bread or place it on your tongue can be done whether you are deeply seeking Christ or have a heart full of sin and focusing on the post-Mass football game on TV.

 

[Webers_Home]

.

Both elements - the Blood and Body of Christ are fully Christ. Taking one
or both gives us the full experience of receiving Christ.

According to the Lord's testimony, as an expert witness in all matters
pertaining to his own wishes; Christ's body is in the bread, and his blood is
in the cup.

†. Mtt 26:26-27 . .While they were eating, Jesus took bread, gave thanks
and broke it, and gave it to his disciples, saying: Take and eat; this is my
body. Then he took the cup, gave thanks and offered it to them, saying:
Drink from it, all of you. This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured
out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

Paul corroborated the Lord's testimony.

†. 1Cor 11:23-25 . . For I received from the Lord that which I also delivered
to you: that the Lord Jesus on the same night in which he was betrayed took
bread; and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said: Take, eat; this
is my body which is broken for you; do this in remembrance of me. In the
same manner he also took the cup after supper, saying: This cup is the new
covenant in my blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of
me.

According to Christ then; communion is incomplete when only one of the
elements is consumed; viz: participants in a half-baked communion are
disqualified from the blessing of eternal life because both elements have to
be consumed in order to obtain it.

†. John 6:53 . . Jesus said to them: I tell you the truth, unless you eat the
flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.

†. John 6:54 . .Whoso eats my flesh, and drinks my blood, has eternal life.

Do the Catholics not dip the wafer (bread) into the wine before it is handed out?

I was an old-school Catholic from 1944 to 1968; which was pre Vatican II.
Only priests consumed the wine element in those days: no dipping, dunking,
tincturing, moistening, soaking, wicking, or tasting; no, nothing like that;
viz: zero contact with the wine element.

Buen Camino
/

 

[aspen]

.


According to the Lord's testimony, as an expert witness in all matters
pertaining to his own wishes; Christ's body is in the bread, and his blood is
in the cup.

†. Mtt 26:26-27 . .While they were eating, Jesus took bread, gave thanks
and broke it, and gave it to his disciples, saying: Take and eat; this is my
body. Then he took the cup, gave thanks and offered it to them, saying:
Drink from it, all of you. This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured
out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

Paul corroborated the Lord's testimony.

†. 1Cor 11:23-25 . . For I received from the Lord that which I also delivered
to you: that the Lord Jesus on the same night in which he was betrayed took
bread; and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said: Take, eat; this
is my body which is broken for you; do this in remembrance of me. In the
same manner he also took the cup after supper, saying: This cup is the new
covenant in my blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of
me.

According to Christ then; communion is incomplete when only one of the
elements is consumed; viz: participants in a half-baked communion are
disqualified from the blessing of eternal life because both elements have to
be consumed in order to obtain it.

†. John 6:53 . . Jesus said to them: I tell you the truth, unless you eat the
flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.

†. John 6:54 . .Whoso eats my flesh, and drinks my blood, has eternal life.




I was an old-school Catholic from 1944 to 1968; which was pre Vatican II.
Only priests consumed the wine element in those days: no dipping, dunking,
tincturing, moistening, soaking, wicking, or tasting; no, nothing like that;
viz: zero contact with the wine element.

Buen Camino
/

Our blood and our body contains the same DNA - our full genetic code.

 

[Webers_Home]

.

Our blood and our body contains the same DNA - our full genetic code.

The Lord didn't instruct the apostles to remember his crucifixion by consuming
genetic code. He clearly, and without ambiguity, commanded them to eat a bit
of bread and to follow it up with a beverage from the vine; and I would just like
to know why in God's good name some of you are finding it so difficult to comply
with His son's wishes.

†. Luke 6:46 . .Why do you call me Lord and Master and not do the things
which I say?

†. John 14:15 . . If you love me, you will comply with what I command.

†. John 14:21 . .Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one
who loves me.

†. John 14:23-24 . . If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching . . He who
does not love me will not obey my teaching.

†. John 15:14 . .You are my friends if you do as I wish.

Buen Camino
/

 

[aspen]

.


The Lord didn't instruct the apostles to remember his crucifixion by consuming
genetic code. He clearly, and without ambiguity, commanded them to eat a bit
of bread and to follow it up with a beverage from the vine; and I would just like
to know why in God's good name some of you are finding it so difficult to comply
with His son's wishes.

†. Luke 6:46 . .Why do you call me Lord and Master and not do the things
which I say?

†. John 14:15 . . If you love me, you will comply with what I command.

†. John 14:21 . .Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one
who loves me.

†. John 14:23-24 . . If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching . . He who
does not love me will not obey my teaching.

†. John 15:14 . .You are my friends if you do as I wish.

Buen Camino
/

ah yeah.....way to take my comment as literally as possible....

my point is that the blood and the body contain the full essence of Christ JUST LIKE blood and body contain the full DNA of a person.

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

my point is that the blood and the body contain the full essence of Christ JUST LIKE blood and body contain the full DNA of a person.

Speaking of DNA .... sometimes I ponder what Jesus' DNA would look like .... say it could be found on a burial shroud or something .... wouldn't that be cool .....

 

[Mungo]

Do the Catholics not dip the wafer (bread) into the wine before it is handed out ? At least that is what I thought.

There are different practices in different Rites and countries.

In the Roman (Latin) Rite either:

1, the hosts are received separately from the chalice
or
2. In some countries the dipping of hosts in the chalice is permitted. It is known as intinction and shoud be done by the priest.
Also the hosts must be of a suitable type so that they do not disintegrate when dipped.

In Eastern Rites leavened bread is used and a small piece on a silver spoon is dipped into the chalice and placed on the tongue using the spoon.

 

[Webers_Home]

.

In some countries the dipping of hosts in the chalice is permitted. It is known as intinction
and shoud be done by the priest.

I just don't understand why in God's good name some people find it so difficult to comply with
His son's easy-as-pie instructions in regards to the means by which Christ wants people to
memorialize his crucifixion. His wish is that people drink from the cup, not dip in the cup.

†. Mtt 26:27-28 . . He took the cup, gave thanks and offered it to them, saying: Drink from it, all
of you.

In Eastern Rites leavened bread is used

The Lord's last supper was a Passover meal.

†. Ex 12:8 . . And they shall eat the flesh in that night, roast with fire, and unleavened bread

In other words; the bread he and his men were eating that night wasn't leavened bread;
which is appropriate because Christ is a type of the original Passover.

†. 1Cor 5:7 . . Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are
unleavened. For even Christ our Passover is sacrificed for us

and a small piece on a silver spoon is dipped into the chalice and placed on the tongue using
the spoon.

No dipping. Drinking only.

†. Mtt 26:27-28 . . He took the cup, gave thanks and offered it to them, saying: Drink from it, all
of you.

A sanitary method employed by a number of Protestant churches is to serve the fruit of the vine
in little disposable Dixie cups.

Buen Camino
/

 

[Mungo]

.


I just don't understand why in God's good name some people find it so difficult to comply with
His son's easy-as-pie instructions in regards to the means by which Christ wants people to
memorialize his crucifixion. His wish is that people drink from the cup, not dip in the cup.

†. Mtt 26:27-28 . . He took the cup, gave thanks and offered it to them, saying: Drink from it, all
of you.




The Lord's last supper was a Passover meal.

†. Ex 12:8 . . And they shall eat the flesh in that night, roast with fire, and unleavened bread

In other words; the bread he and his men were eating that night wasn't leavened bread;
which is appropriate because Christ is a type of the original Passover.

†. 1Cor 5:7 . . Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are
unleavened. For even Christ our Passover is sacrificed for us




No dipping. Drinking only.

†. Mtt 26:27-28 . . He took the cup, gave thanks and offered it to them, saying: Drink from it, all
of you.

A sanitary method employed by a number of Protestant churches is to serve the fruit of the vine
in little disposable Dixie cups.

Buen Camino
/

You know, for once I tend to agree with you. :)

 

[Webers_Home]

.
Common Objection : But surely God would understand if a person doesn't
consume something because of an allergy or something like that? Especially
since an allergy isn't something someone chooses, but a physically-based
problem? I would hope that a God who sees all and knows all wouldn't hold
it against someone if He knew they weren't taking the bread because of an
allergy; or not taking the fruit of the vine because of a problem with alcohol.

What would you be willing to do to stay out of hell? Would you be willing to
gouge out your own eyes so that you could never again read a book, watch
a sunset, or go to the movies-- and have to feel your way around with a
stick? Would you be willing to be a quadriplegic the rest of your life in a
wheel chair like Stephen Hawking? Would you be willing to puncture your
eardrums so that you would never again hear the slightest note of music?
Would you be willing to sever your tongue so that you would never again
speak a word nor taste your food? Would you be willing to eat a bowl of
maggots and toilet water for breakfast every morning for the next ten years?
Would you be willing to slice off your nose, your ears, and chop off every
finger on both of your hands?

See what I'm saying? If perchance transubstantiation is true, then I would
emphatically suggest that people with allergies and/or problems with alcohol
bite the bullet unless they want to suffer a worse fate.

†. John 6:53 . . Jesus said to them: I tell you the truth, unless you eat the
flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.

People without life in them are eo ipso omitted from the book of life.
Consequently; they will be terminated in a special reservoir of liquefied
flame.

†. Rev 20:15 . . If anyone's name was not found recorded in the book of life,
he was thrown into the lake of fire.

John reported that event in the grammatical past tense because he was
given a glimpse into the future and saw for himself the lifeless dead being
executed by a method somewhat akin to burning at the stake-- and all
because they failed to correctly consume the Lord's flesh and blood.

†. Mrk 9:47-48 . . And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for
thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to
be cast into hell fire: where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not
quenched.

†. Isa 66:22-24 . . All humanity will come to worship me from week to week
and from month to month. And as they go out, they will see the dead bodies
of those who have rebelled against me. For the worms that devour them will
never die, and the fire that burns them will never go out. All who pass by
will view them with utter horror.

Buen Camino
/

 

[Webers_Home]

.
Wine or grape juice? Well; due to the fact that the last supper was a
Passover seder; which is consumed in springtime right around March and
April when fresh grapes are generally unavailable in Palestine; and
considering that 2,000 years ago nobody had refrigeration, I think we have
to concede that the fruit of the vine in the last supper's cup was fermented;
especially because one need not go to any particular trouble to make wine
since grapes typically have enough indigenous yeast on their skins to start
the process naturally.

†. Mtt 26:29 . . I tell you: I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now
on until that day when I drink it anew with you in my Father's kingdom.

New wine (a.k.a. young wine) is quite sufficient to get people hammered
(Acts 2:5-15) though old wine (a.k.a. aged wine) is generally considered the
better quality of the two (Luke 5:39). Precisely why the Lord prefers a young
wine to an aged wine; I have no clue.

Is it therefore mandatory that communion be served with fermented grape
juice? Well; in Jesus' day he really had no choice about it at Passover time;
but in our day we do. So I'd say that fermented grape juice is optional just
so long as the communion cup contains fruit of the vine.

Note : a pretty good argument might be made that the cup actually contained
some vinegar (John 13:26-30, cf. John 19:29-30) indicating that the liquid in
the last supper's cup was maybe not all that tasty. Personally I think wine
tastes awful anyway-- even the smell tends to make me a little nauseous
--but vinegar works pretty good for salads and sauces.

Buen Camino
/