Timtofly
Well-Known Member
I am saying you seem to stir up trouble. Happy windmill hunting.Are you saying John wrote the whole NT, or just simply not comprehending what FOTG posted?
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I am saying you seem to stir up trouble. Happy windmill hunting.Are you saying John wrote the whole NT, or just simply not comprehending what FOTG posted?
Obviously you would not want to correct yourself, and point out that you purposely left out verses that would prove you are wrong.That's why I didn't bother to reply. It's just a distraction. Full of things that would take half an hour to correct. I was answering Davy's post anyway, not Tim's.
So you certainly have a point to be made, but this is what has thrown me off somewhat. You say that following Jesus' death, and the tearing of the temple veil, "naos" is never again used for a physical temple, with the exception of reference to the temple of Diana?With the exception of the New Testament's only reference to a shrine for Diana as the naos, naos is not even once applied to any physical temple again after the verses telling about the tearing of the veil in the physical temple in Jerusalem.
I am saying only you seem to think that.I am saying you seem to stir up trouble. Happy windmill hunting.
You are the one pointing out what you did not say.You're thinking aloud again, combining different subjects and your own views on them, not answering what I said, answering what I did not say.
So if Paul was talking about a temple in Jerusalem in 2 Thess 2:4, then why on earth he would be inconsistent, - unless of course, Paul isn't talking about a temple in Jerusalem in 2 Thess 2:4.
I am saying only you seem to think that.
According to you, Paul is John, yes?
If you'd take the time to read your own excerpt from FOTG's post, you'd notice that all of his Scripture references are from Paul's epistles.
Paul is fully consistent in distinguishing between "naós", and "hierón" (and "eidóleion").
And Paul is not John.
Only to you do they seem unrelated.None of your post that are addressed to my username, has implied otherwise. They all seem to be unrelated to the topic of the thread.
You are the one pointing out what you did not say.
I understand you were not saying that. Except your whole point has been there was no mention of a temple using the word "naos" in the NT after the veil was torn.
My point was that the Temple in both 2 Thessalonians 2:4 and in Revelation 11:1 are the same Temple and are mentioned after the veil was torn. They are not the temple mentioned in the tearing of the veil. They are not the heavenly Temple either. They are the temple where Satan sits as the 8th king on the earth. Satan does not sit in the heavenly Temple ever.
John and Paul are talking about the same event that is still in the future. I was not addressing your point that you did not say even though you went to great lengths not to say it. I did point out that John made a distinction.
Of course I "think out loud" or I post my thoughts. There is only one subject and that is the "man of sin". So not many unrelated subjects, as even you went to great lengths to post about the word "naos".
But my point is that the word "naos" is still being defined as a "physical temple" after the veil was rent. That is, the word itself had not lost its application to physical temples. "Naos" still meant "physical temples" after the rending of the veil. It just referred to the temple itself, as opposed to its extended superstructure, or to its entire holy environment.
Of course I understood what you meant! As I said, NT theology itself requires that "hieron," ie the entire OT temple superstructure, lose its validity, such that "naos" could no longer refer to the Mosaic Temple, but could only then refer to a heavenly temple.I understand what you mean.
I don't think you fully understand what I mean, though, so I hope you have the time on your hands to read this below carefully:
Paul's (Man Of Sin) will be a future literal human man, of Jewish-Hebrew decentIn 2 Thessalonians 2, Apostle Paul was warning the brethren against false doctrine some crept in unawares was spreading. So he sent them that 2 Thess.2 Epistle to remind the brethren of what he had taught them at the first.
2 Thess 2:1-5
2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
KJV
If you study all... of your Bible, then it becomes easy to understand just who Apostle Paul is talking about as that coming "man of sin" and "son of perdition" that will appear in Jerusalem in a new stone temple for the end, and set himself up over all that is called... God, or that is worshipped.
Apostle Paul then later links the false working by that coming "man of sin" to Jerusalem with the false one Lord Jesus taught about for the end in His Olivet discourse of Matthew 24:23-26. Jesus warned that if someone comes up to you and says something like, "Lo, Christ is here, or there", Jesus said do not believe it. That is within the time of "great tribulation" He showed, which is only at the very end of this present world. And that is the "man of sin" that Paul was reminding the brethren about (including us today).
That future event about that "man of sin" coming to play God in Jerusalem for the end, also involves another standing Jewish stone temple in Jerusalem, what Paul pointed to with "the temple of God".
Jesus showed that too when He quoted from the Book of Daniel about the "abomination of desolation" idol event that will spiritually desolate the future Jew's temple in Jerusalem, per Daniel 11, Daniel 9:27, and Daniel 8:9-14. Now if you have not studied about that prophecy per the Book of Daniel for the end of this world, then you will default to men's stupid theories that leave Bible Scripture, and who are not given to understand this event for the very end of this world.
Jesus wasn't pointing to flesh-born Antichrist either.We Christians build Church's and Cathedrals to worship God in.
If we go to live in the holy Land, as is well prophesied, then we would build a new Temple in Jerusalem. As Zechariah 6:15 says.
Regarding the 'man of sin', he must be alive now and will be revealed when he sits in the new Temple, as described in 2 Thess 2:4.
Jesus was not talking about a past event in Matthew 24:15.......let the reader understand. Seems some don't want to understand.
That argument is baseless, simply because Greek naos (NT:3485) is not always used about a 'spiritual temple' idea...I have studied it all, and taken note of the fact that It was all written in Greek first, and the noticeable thing about the temple written about in 2 Thess 2:4 is that Paul used the Greek word naós in reference to that temple - a word which he consistently used when speaking about the bodies of individual Christians, and the congregations of Christians as the tabernacle (temple) of God (1 Corinthians 3:16-17 & 1 Corinthians 6:19; 2 Corinthians 6:16; and Ephesians 2:21-22).
However Paul used the Greek word hierón in reference to the temple in Jerusalem (which was still standing) in 1 Corinthians 9:13.
The abomination of desolation was placed in the sanctuary of the 2nd temple where the Spirit of God met with His people by Antiochus IV Epiphanes, who identified himself with Zeus, the king of the gods and idol that he place in the temple sanctuary, causing all Jews to sacrificfe pigs to it on the altar in the temple.That argument is baseless, simply because Greek naos (NT:3485) is not always used about a 'spiritual temple' idea...
Matt 23:16
16 Woe unto you, ye blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple (Greek naos), it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor!
KJV
For what you are suggesting to be true, ALL... New Testament references to a stone temple in Jerusalem would have to be only Greek hieron (NT:2411).
Furthermore, the idea that a false one could sit over the SPIRITUAL TEMPLE which is of The SPIRIT is a ludicrous idea! Reason is because per Paul in Ephesians 2, the spiritual temple foundation is made up of Christ's Apostles, the prophets and Lord Jesus Himself as its Cornerstone!
So all that would have be corrupted by anyone trying to sit over it playing God! That very stupid idea of a false one sitting over the Temple of The Spirit in Christ is an obvious doctrine of the 'crept in unawares'! I am so surprised at brethren falling for that one dreamed up by Christ's enemies!
I refer to the Jewish historian Josephus when speaking about Antiochus IV. He conquered Jerusalem in 170 B.C. with army, didn't he? That's how he got control of the Jew's 2nd temple in Jerusalem. The FINAL Antichrist for the very end of this world doesn't come to power using an army, because the Book of Daniel shows he will come to power as king using peace and flatteries. What does that show about the Daniel AOD event then that Jesus quoted among His Signs of the end?I partly agree, because this is what Wikipedia has to say about the phrase "Abomination of Desolation":
================================="Abomination of Desolation" is a phrase from the Book of Daniel describing the pagan sacrifices with which the 2nd century BC Greek king Antiochus IV Epiphanes replaced the twice-daily offering in the Jewish temple, or alternatively the altar on which such offerings were made."
(Abomination of desolation - Wikipedia)=================================
You shouldn't make FALSE STATEMENTS that shows you don't know what you're talking about.The abomination of desolation was placed in the sanctuary of the 2nd temple where the Spirit of God met with His people by Antiochus IV Epiphanes, who identified himself with Zeus, the king of the gods and idol that he place in the temple sanctuary, causing all Jews to sacrificfe pigs to it on the altar in the temple.
But according to your argument the above is impossible.
I have other posts further up which answer your other objection (Post #29 sums it up), so I won't repeat them here.
What do you call this?So all that would have be corrupted by anyone trying to sit over it playing God!
That very stupid idea of a false one sitting over the Temple of The Spirit in Christ is an obvious doctrine of the 'crept in unawares'!
I said according to your post, what Antiochus IV did was impossible, because God's sanctuary where the Holy Spirit met with His people could not be defiled, according to what you said in your post.You shouldn't make FALSE STATEMENTS that shows you don't know what you're talking about.
MY argument is from God's Word as written! Your's is by false Jews of the "synagogue of Satan" that you instead heed. You mean you really don't think there's those of us here that can tell when unbelieving Jews come here trying to push false doctrine on a Christian forum???
Antiochus IV served ONLY AS A BLUEPRINT, he did NOT fulfill all the parameters of the Daniel 11 prophecy.
And you trying to suggest that anyone who DISAGREES with your 'doctrine of men' on that OUTSIDE BIBLE SCRIPTURE is pushing an impossible argument shows your character is NOT to be trusted!
Well there was also a tone of arrogance in your previous reply to me, No? It put me off trying to work out what you were actually saying by reading the whole post with the unrelated Revelation subject. My post on the word naos was on topic to the OP of this thread.
But enough of the above. Your post quoted above is the first post to me in a while where you are making sense and making yourself 100% clear. Thank you.
I don't believe you are correct, because the inner court of the physical temple - the holy place and the most holy place - was the place where only God's priests were allowed to enter. Outside of the holy place, and separated by walls, were two courts - one for Jews only, and another one - furthest from the holy place - for the Gentiles (where the Gentiles were allowed into).
The Gentiles were not allowed further than the outermost court. Revelation 11:1-2 uses the physical temple structure in Jerusalem (which was no longer standing by the time the Revelation was written) to create an image that we will understand:
1 And a reed like a rod was given to me. And the angel stood, saying, Rise up and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and those who worship in it.
2 But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it was given to the Gentiles.
And they will trample the holy city forty-two months.
Jerusalem had also ceased being Jewish - conquered by the Romans - by the time the above was written. There was now only one "holy city" - New Jerusalem.
Those who worship in the temple of God are the faithful saints.
IMO John is basically being told to count the sheep (those who worship in the temple of God are being measured - not just the temple and its altar), because the time has come when no more people will be joined to the temple of God. The world is going to become divided between those sealed with the seal of God, who worship in God's temple, and those who are outside, in "the court of the Gentiles":-
5 The beast was given a mouth speaking proud words and blasphemies, and he was permitted to exercise ruling authority for forty-two months.
6 So the beast opened his mouth to blaspheme against God - to blaspheme both his name and his dwelling place, that is, those who dwell in heaven.
7 The beast was permitted to go to war against the saints and conquer them. He was given ruling authority over every tribe, people, language, and nation. --Revelation 13.
8 and all those who live on the earth will worship the beast, everyone whose name has not been written since the foundation of the world in the book of life belonging to the Lamb who was killed.
1 And a reed like a rod was given to me. And the angel stood, saying, Rise up and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and those who worship in it.
2 But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it was given to the Gentiles.
And they will trample the holy city forty-two months.
He opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, and as a result he takes his seat in God's temple, displaying himself as God. --2Thessalonians 2:4.
I believe that this possibly means that the man of sin = the beast, and he's going to make himself the head of the church, or will be someone who currently holds "the office" of "head of the church" - but whatever the case may be (I don't pretend to myself I know exactly how it's going to play out), the temple of God is going to be defiled:
6 So the beast opened his mouth to blaspheme against God - to blaspheme both his name and his dwelling place, that is, those who dwell in heaven.