OSAS being False Doctrine!

[Ritajanice]

My way vs your way?

is that a thing?

Can you explain how your way differs from my way in my post?

I said that is your way of understanding Born Again

I was Born Again having never read a Bible.....therefore I was was birthed in the Spirit like the wind..Spirit gives birth to spirit/ Born Again....there was much more to it than that..which I’ve already explained many times.

I don’t understand your rebirth no more than you could possibly understand mine?

 

[JBO]

I know what it means.

We have the help of the Holy Spirit..because we were first birthed in the Spirit...that’s when we start our walk with God....and NO....I didn’t understand that as a new babe....

We learn the word, through the help of the Holy Spirit.....he brings us to God’s truth and understanding of it.

Where does the Bible even speak of "birthed in the Spirit"? I can't find that anywhere. It does speak of born (again) of water and Spirit, but birthed in the Spirit doesn't show up anywhere.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I said that is your way of understanding Born Again

I was Born Again having never read a Bible.....therefore I was was birthed in the Spirit like the wind.....there was much more to it than that..which I’ve already explained many times.

I don’t understand your rebirth no more than you could possibly understand mine?

I wrote a post explaining WHY we needed born again.

I also explained WHAT IT MEANS

I Finally explained what it was not (being baptized or trying our best to be good)

I have no idea what you’re trying to say. It’s not about our experience, that is not what I was discussing. So I am baffled by your answers.

Do you have any comments on what I said?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Where does the Bible even speak of "birthed in the Spirit"? I can't find that anywhere. It does speak of born (again) of water and Spirit, but birthed in the Spirit doesn't show up anywhere.

Born of the spirit, You just repeated the phrase (only you added water, which God did also, so thats ok)

then said it is no where in scripture.

come on man…

lets continue

John 3:6
That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit
John 3:8
The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit

Notice jesus did not use the word water in those two verses..

 

[Taken]

Yes, in your opinion. God didn't say any of that. You just did. Try not to complicate God’s word.

God said, "Thus declares the LORD, who stretched out the heavens and founded the earth and formed the spirit of man within him"(Zech 12:1) You think the spirit that God forms in us is dead?? Seriously?

Our spirits are not born dead. Our spirits are "born" live and well when we are first born. We become (spiritually) dead in our trespasses and sins (Eph 2:1). Our spirits need to be reborn, regenerated. That regeneration comes by water and Spirit.

Gods Forms the man (body) it’s life is BLOOD.
God gives that body LIFE FROM Him (His breath/ soul)
The spirit of the natural born man, is a natural spirit in his heart. That mans natural spirit “IS” his natural TRUTH. A spiritual spirit? No. Natural.
WHAT is a Natural TRUTH?
It is what the individual Naturally assuredly BELIEVES.

A natural man has a MIND, in his Brain, in his Head….guesses between this and that what to believe…and changes his belief continually.

The natural spirit in a man’s HEART, will believe what he is told.
Daddy says stop hitting your sister, because if you do that again, Daddy will punish you with a spanking. Next day you hit your sister. She tells Daddy. Daddy repeats warning, but never spanks you.
What is your truth in your heart? You can hit your sister every day, and the warning of a spanking will be your punishment.

A truth in your MIND is different. Daddy say do not lie. Knock at door. Persons asks if your daddy is home. Daddy is off to the side saying tell the person,, No, your daddy is not home.
Your mind has just been taught, it is OKAY to LIE, if you are clever enough to HIDE the TRUTH.
Your Heart, (spirits thoughts) knows the Truth, but your mouth was speaking a LIE.
(and after 10, 20 years of playing a game such as that…your INTERNAL conflict between your natural spirits truth, and your carnal minds lies….you become agitated, confused, depressed, and get a medical diagnoses of some fancy name and synthetic chemical compound prescription of government approved drugs.



A natural born man is OF a natural born mans SEED…
A natural born babe, IS BORN IN SIN.
A natural born babe, growing, getting older, can REMAIN IN his SIN….for DECADES.

WHAT was “YOUR SIN AGAINST GOD for the moment of your natural Birth?”
Not liking your parents rules?
Not Liking particular other people?
Taking a candy bar without permission when mommy said you couldn’t have one? (ie theft).
Not cleaning your room, as told to do, but shoving everything under the bed, but telling mommy you cleaned your room? (Ie lying)

Would you classify those as SINS Committed AGAINST God?

Because JESUS taught SIN AGAINST GOD, is NON-BELIEF IN God…. Which natural born babies DO NOT BELIEVE IN GOD!
Natural mortals, are born IN SIN.
They hear, they Learn ABOUT God, and decide for themselves WHAT to Believe.
And that can (as does) occur at varying AGES….some young children learn and believe…..and some do not for Decades….and some never.
* Belief is ONE Step….confessing Belief is the next step……and the Last step is God Himself searching the hearts thoughts of EVERY DEAD BODY, to retrieve the EVIDENCE to KNOW IF a man DID OR DID NOT physical DIE, heartfully believing IN God or Not.


You ERROR, not knowing all natural born individuals ARE naturally born IN Sin.
Pss 51:5
Eph 2:3

 

[Ritajanice]

Where does the Bible even speak of "birthed in the Spirit"? I can't find that anywhere. It does speak of born (again) of water and Spirit, but birthed in the Spirit doesn't show up anywhere.

Flesh gives birth to flesh.....the natural birth.

Spirit gives birth to spirit.....who else can give your spirit birth?..

I was Born of water..amniotic fluid.

And I was Born of God...where he testifies with our spirit that we are his children...he spoke to my spirit...( testifies )

 

[Taken]

I wrote a post explaining WHY we needed born again.

I also explained WHAT IT MEANS

I Finally explained what it was not (being baptized or trying our best to be good)

I have no idea what you’re trying to say. It’s not about our experience, that is not what I was discussing. So I am baffled by your answers.

Do you have any comments on what I said?

I agree in part with what both of you are saying.
I, like any individual, explain with my own beliefs, with my own words.

 

[Ritajanice]

I wrote a post explaining WHY we needed born again.

I also explained WHAT IT MEANS

I Finally explained what it was not (being baptized or trying our best to be good)

I have no idea what you’re trying to say. It’s not about our experience, that is not what I was discussing. So I am baffled by your answers.

Do you have any comments on what I said?

You had an experience did you not?

I had a supernatural experience, which was becoming Born Again by the Living word of God...God testifies with our spirit that we are his children.....it was like the wind...again in God’s word...

Born again...Born Again child....and there it was..in God’s word...Spirit gives birth to spirit....

You must also know that God’s word is Alive and Active?

The word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

 

[JBO]

Born of the spirit, You just repeated the phrase (only you added water, which God did also, so thats ok)

then said it is no where in scripture.

come on man…

I was referring to the actual phrase, "birthed in the Spirit". It is not there and I don't know what is intended by it. Given what has been said, I don't think it means the same thing as "born of the Spirit". Or perhaps I should say that the phrase "birthed in the Spirit" does not mean the same thing to me as "born of the Spirit".

lets continue

John 3:6
That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit
John 3:8
The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.

Notice jesus did not use the word water in those two verses.

But that does not negate the use of the word water in verse 5.

 

[Ritajanice]

I was referring to the actual phrase, "birthed in the Spirit". It is not there and I don't know what is intended by it. Given what has been said, I don't think it means the same thing as "born of the Spirit". Or perhaps I should say that the phrase "birthed in the Spirit" does not mean the same thing to me as "born of the Spirit".

But that does not negate the use of the word water in verse 5.

Birthed in the Spirit...means to me the same as

Spirit gives birth to spirit......?

Who else can birth your spirit into the Holy Spirit?

Do you actually understand that God’s word is Alive and Active?

Which means what?

Who testifies with our spirit that we are his children?

The word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I was referring to the actual phrase, "birthed in the Spirit". It is not there and I don't know what is intended by it. Given what has been said, I don't think it means the same thing as "born of the Spirit". Or perhaps I should say that the phrase "birthed in the Spirit" does not mean the same thing to me as "born of the Spirit".







But that does not negate the use of the word water in verse 5.

no

But just like the fact Jesus did not mention the word baptize when he told him how to be born again

it prety much negates the thought that baptism is required.

 

[Taken]

Flesh gives birth to flesh.....the natural birth.

Spirit gives birth to spirit.....who else can give your spirit birth?..

I was Born of water..amniotic fluid.

And I was Born of God...where he testifies with our spirit that we are his children...he spoke to my spirit...( testifies )

He is not struggling with what you are saying, He is focusing on “spirit born of spirit” in the natural sense.

Natural born men ……. HAVE a natural spirit of a natural seed (mans seed).

A natural spirit, is described as thoughts in the heart of that individuals “TRUTHS”.
The mind, can have thoughts, of love, hate, truths, lies, deceit, etc…..whereas the truths in the heart are all truths.

A natural born mans spirit in his heart…IS NATURAL truths…,
I love pizza….a natural truth.
My name IS … John….a natural truth.
I like Billy, I don’t like Billy, I like Billy….MINDFUL, wavering.

A man who is being “born again”, is becoming BORN of Gods SEED…Gods SEED……RE_BIRTHS a mans natural spirit.

How can a mans spirit BE-reborn if he had no “natural spirit” to begin with ?

@JBO - is stumped at God creating a natural man……with a “spirit”, that IS NOT already “good, only truth’ etc.

It is the “TRUTHS” in the spirit of man that becomes CHANGED, via a “rebirth”….
From Mans…”truths’
To Gods………”truths’…

And expressly that “change” is effected BY Gods Power…and called….having received Gods SEED….and Gods Spirit of Truth…His Truth”…..which supersedes all of mens natural truths.

 

[JBO]

Gods Forms the man (body) it’s life is BLOOD.
God gives that body LIFE FROM Him (His breath/ soul)
The spirit of the natural born man, is a natural spirit in his heart. That mans natural spirit “IS” his natural TRUTH. A spiritual spirit? No. Natural.
WHAT is a Natural TRUTH?
It is what the individual Naturally assuredly BELIEVES.

A natural man has a MIND, in his Brain, in his Head….guesses between this and that what to believe…and changes his belief continually.

The natural spirit in a man’s HEART, will believe what he is told.
Daddy says stop hitting your sister, because if you do that again, Daddy will punish you with a spanking. Next day you hit your sister. She tells Daddy. Daddy repeats warning, but never spanks you.
What is your truth in your heart? You can hit your sister every day, and the warning of a spanking will be your punishment.

A truth in your MIND is different. Daddy say do not lie. Knock at door. Persons asks if your daddy is home. Daddy is off to the side saying tell the person,, No, your daddy is not home.
Your mind has just been taught, it is OKAY to LIE, if you are clever enough to HIDE the TRUTH.
Your Heart, (spirits thoughts) knows the Truth, but your mouth was speaking a LIE.
(and after 10, 20 years of playing a game such as that…your INTERNAL conflict between your natural spirits truth, and your carnal minds lies….you become agitated, confused, depressed, and get a medical diagnoses of some fancy name and synthetic chemical compound prescription of government approved drugs.



A natural born man is OF a natural born mans SEED…
A natural born babe, IS BORN IN SIN.
A natural born babe, growing, getting older, can REMAIN IN his SIN….for DECADES.

WHAT was “YOUR SIN AGAINST GOD for the moment of your natural Birth?”
Not liking your parents rules?
Not Liking particular other people?
Taking a candy bar without permission when mommy said you couldn’t have one? (ie theft).
Not cleaning your room, as told to do, but shoving everything under the bed, but telling mommy you cleaned your room? (Ie lying)

Would you classify those as SINS Committed AGAINST God?

Because JESUS taught SIN AGAINST GOD, is NON-BELIEF IN God…. Which natural born babies DO NOT BELIEVE IN GOD!
Natural mortals, are born IN SIN.
They hear, they Learn ABOUT God, and decide for themselves WHAT to Believe.
And that can (as does) occur at varying AGES….some young children learn and believe…..and some do not for Decades….and some never.
* Belief is ONE Step….confessing Belief is the next step……and the Last step is God Himself searching the hearts thoughts of EVERY DEAD BODY, to retrieve the EVIDENCE to KNOW IF a man DID OR DID NOT physical DIE, heartfully believing IN God or Not.

I don't even begin to know what all of that means.

You ERROR, not knowing all natural born individuals ARE naturally born IN Sin.
Pss 51:5
Eph 2:3

If you are referring to Original Sin, I reject that. I consider the doctrine of Original Sin to be one of the most heinously false doctrines around. Neither of the two verses you cited support that false doctrine. Ephesians 2:3 does not even suggest that God imputes the sin of Adam to us. And if you want to treated Psalm 51:5 as proclaiming the doctrine of Original Sin, then you should also treat Psalm 51:7 as proclaiming cure. You had better start looking for some hyssop.

 

[Ritajanice]

Spirit gives birth to

He is not struggling with what you are saying, He is focusing on “spirit born of spirit” in the natural sense.

Natural born men ……. HAVE a natural spirit of a natural seed (mans seed).

I never said they didn’t...their Spirit needs to be Born from Above to see the Kingdom of God.

A natural spirit, is described as thoughts in the heart of that individuals “TRUTHS”.
The mind, can have thoughts, of love, hate, truths, lies, deceit, etc…..whereas the truths in the heart are all truths.

A natural born mans spirit in his heart…IS NATURAL truths…,
I love pizza….a natural truth.
My name IS … John….a natural truth.
I like Billy, I don’t like Billy, I like Billy….MINDFUL, wavering.

A man who is being “born again”, is becoming BORN of Gods SEED…Gods SEED……RE_BIRTHS a mans natural spirit.

How can a mans spirit BE-reborn if he had no “natural spirit” to begin with ?

Again..I never said we didn’t have a Spirit...I said it was dead in sin..until God decides to bring our spirit alive by the Spirit..Spirit gives birth to spirit?

@JBO - is stumped at God creating a natural man……with a “spirit”, that IS NOT already “good, only truth’ etc.

It is the “TRUTHS” in the spirit of man that becomes CHANGED, via a “rebirth”….
From Mans…”truths’
To Gods………”truths’…

And expressly that “change” is effected BY Gods Power…and called….having received Gods SEED….and Gods Spirit of Truth…His Truth”…..which supersedes all of mens natural truths.

Spirit gives birth to spirit..Born from Above, like the wind.

The testifying with our spirit that we are his children..that is a Living birth....the Living word of God is HIS seed./ his living word.he grows and matures his seed / word in his children....he plants his word in the heart/ soil that it will grow into ...all according to his purpose and plan..

He opens the heart to receive HIS living word...there it will take root and he will grow it....my faith stands on God’s word...that was delivered straight to my heart by the Living word of God.

His Spirit LIVES in us...

Born of God.

Spirit gives birth to spirit.

Born Again.

Rebirth.

Regeneration..they all mean the same thing..
Our spirit in us..needs to be Born Again....as without we are still in darkness and sin..

When God gave us the Spirit, He opened our eyes to see and experience Him. After the Spirit comes into our hearts, He gives us gifts that open our eyes. First, He gives us understanding which is an eye in the Spirit to know God( Eph. 1:18). Second, the Spirit brings the spirit of prophecy, which opens our eyes to see visions as John did in the book of Revelation or Balaam in Num. 22:31 above.

 

[JBO]

He is not struggling with what you are saying, He is focusing on “spirit born of spirit” in the natural sense.

Natural born men ……. HAVE a natural spirit of a natural seed (mans seed).

A natural spirit, is described as thoughts in the heart of that individuals “TRUTHS”.
The mind, can have thoughts, of love, hate, truths, lies, deceit, etc…..whereas the truths in the heart are all truths.

A natural born mans spirit in his heart…IS NATURAL truths…,
I love pizza….a natural truth.
My name IS … John….a natural truth.
I like Billy, I don’t like Billy, I like Billy….MINDFUL, wavering.

A man who is being “born again”, is becoming BORN of Gods SEED…Gods SEED……RE_BIRTHS a mans natural spirit.

How can a mans spirit BE-reborn if he had no “natural spirit” to begin with ?

@JBO - is stumped at God creating a natural man……with a “spirit”, that IS NOT already “good, only truth’ etc.

It is the “TRUTHS” in the spirit of man that becomes CHANGED, via a “rebirth”….
From Mans…”truths’
To Gods………”truths’…

And expressly that “change” is effected BY Gods Power…and called….having received Gods SEED….and Gods Spirit of Truth…His Truth”…..which supersedes all of mens natural truths.

None of that has anything to do with me.

 

[Taken]

@JBO ~

God FORMS a man.
The man IS FORMED, with bones, tissue, ears, eyes, a mind, nerves, muscles, blood a spirit, ALL Natural of a mans natural seed.

Ecc. Chapters 3,4,5, discuss the mans “natural” spirit of man. It’s the mans natural truth in his heart. The discussion reveals the mans “truth’ in his own natural “spirit”….is his alone, his to contend with, his to decide if it worthy to trust in all matters.

It is leaning forward…to how does a natural mans truth satisfy the man without KNOWING Gods Truth? Without HAVING Gods Truth?

Jesus expressly revealed the term “born again”….
Man IS…a body, has a soul, has a spirit….
So what IS (of a man “born again”) ?
His Body? scripture does not say so.
Scripture says the Body shall be raised Glorified, (not born again).
His soul? Scripture does not say so.
scripture says the soul shall be restored (23 pss: 3). What is a restoration? Making something corrupt, back to its original splendor. What was Gods comment of the souls original splendor, when God gave it to a man? “Very Good”.
His spirit? Scripture does say so.
Gods Seed, Gods SEED births a NEW Spirit.
And what does God DO with His SEED and THE NEW SPIRIT God Births from His SEED?

God “PUTS” that NEW SPIRIT in WHAT?
In a NEW Heart, He Has made in the man.
HOW?
By circumcising the mans OLD Natural Heart.
Thus … the NEW SPIRIT is put IN the New Heart….and Gods SEED as well IS entered into the NEW HEART….
The EFFECT?
The Mans spirit is BORN -AGAiN.
What is Gods Spirit of Truth? Jesus.
What is Gods Spirit of Power? Christ
What is Gods SEED? Christ.
What is those spiritual things IN a man thus make at man called?
CONVERTED, IN Christ.
What does that mean? The mans body is accounted DEAD (Crucified with Christ)
The mans soul is restored (very good), saved to forever Keeps Gods Life (Breath) in his soul.
The mans spirit is born again….
The mans soul and spirit resides IN Christ Jesus’ Risen body, until his own body is raised IN Glory.
The man IS ACCOUNTED whole, (body, soul, spirit) and SANCTIFIED (set apart), thus Justified, to be Raised up (Redeemed / Claimed) ONLY by the Lord God.
The man IS ACCOUNTED, a son of God.

The new spirit from God, is PUT IN a man…
Ezek 18:31
Ezek 36:26
The man IS ACCOUNTED WHOLE, body,

 

[Taken]

Spirit gives birth to

I never said they didn’t...their Spirit needs to be Born from Above to see the Kingdom of God.

Again..I never said we didn’t have a Spirit...I said it was dead in sin..

Nor did I repeat WHAT you said or challenge WHAT you said.

You are implying I challenged what you SAID…I’m not, I didn’t.

He could NOT comprehend God giving a man “A” spirit, (even from natural birth) that was not “suitable”.

God created man…..a form….FROM DIRT.
(Nothing holy about dirt from the open plains of this world)…
(As a matter of fact, God created Adam from dirt…..and PUT HIM in the garden.)

The ONLY thing God…..GAVE / Put IN that FORM…man….was A SOUL, with Gods Breath.

That natural spirit of man, was part of his natural body parts, mind, bones, tissue, blood, etc.

A man who is born again ……. Receives FROM God…….IS GIVEN……Gods seed….by that SEED being PUT IN him.

That was not my dilemma.
No need for you to keep telling me what you did and did not say. Already know that. Didn’t say I disagreed.

 

[Taken]

A Born Again is in God’s light/ Spirit and can never be removed from his light/ Spirit......they cannot step out of his Holy Spirit That indwells them.

They may go off track, but God knows who his children are?they have been sealed and preserved....Jesus will never lose one of his sheep,?even if they wander off....his eye is on them always and his children know that.100%....I’ve wandered off...then realised I can do NOTHING without God.....So....back I come, then we start again.......Holy Spirit leading me and not ME trying to lead the Holy Spirit.....that’s the Living relationship we have with God....as we are Born Again.?


A Born Again is Birthed by the Spirit of God.


Every person who has become Born Again by God....has the indwelling Holy Spirit..who is at work in the believer,..making them into the image of Christ.

You couldn’t do that in your own strength...you must be Born of God for that to happen.

Our old man starts to die as soon as we have been birthed in the Spirit...as we have received the new man/ new heart / Spirit within, when we were birthed in the Spirit


The man / woman who has been Born of God...houses the Holy Spirit...the Holy Spirit indwells the Born Again....they have received the Spiritual birth....Spirit gives birth to spirit.


It the Spirit of God that lives in our spirit, our body houses the Holy Spirit?

We are the temple of the Holy Spirit?

Sorry.....A Born Again, has received the Spirit of God....hence, therefore are in the Kingdom of God....can see the Kingdom of God....Through those spiritual eyes, ears....that was given to us...when God birthed us in the Spirit.

Nowhere in God’s word....does it say that you can birth yourself into Christ....hence Born Again by God’s will, not mans will.

A Born Again....is chosen for God’s purpose and his plan for their lives.

The rest of your post makes no sense to “ ME”....

A Born Again works for the Glory of God....they don’t work for self/ ...they Glorify the new man who happens to be Jesus.....the Holy Spirit is the one who glorifies God and Jesus and he does it through me.

There is NO glory in YOU or ME....you know that right?

We are his vessel....to be used for his purpose his plan?

Why the long post to me….with statements ending with question marks, AS IF you are TELLING ME SOMETHING I CONTESTED and Questioning me about SOMETHING you are implying I CONTESTED ?

I know and have on more than one occasion spoke expressly about a mans natural spirit being born again BY, THROUGH, OF the Spirit of God.

Did you NOT recognize WHY @JBO disagreed with you?

He could NOT comprehend God “putting” an unsuitable spirit in a natural man to begin with….

Fact is…..it is all about WHAT iS THE SOURCE of TRUTH of a natural mans natural spirit.
The Source of TRUTH, that is IN a natural mans SPIRIT……IS THE MANS TRUTH.
The Source of TRUTH that is IN a born again mans SPIRIT…….IS Gods TRUTH.

So Again, why are you posting to me, as if, I have said anything contrary to Gods Word?

 

[Ritajanice]

Why the long post to me….with statements ending with question marks, AS IF you are TELLING ME SOMETHING I CONTESTED and Questioning me about SOMETHING you are implying I CONTESTED ?

I know and have on more than one occasion spoke expressly about a mans natural spirit being born again BY, THROUGH, OF the Spirit of God.

Did you NOT recognize WHY @JBO disagreed with you?

He could NOT comprehend God “putting” an unsuitable spirit in a natural man to begin with….

Fact is…..it is all about WHAT iS THE SOURCE of TRUTH of a natural mans natural spirit.
The Source of TRUTH, that is IN a natural mans SPIRIT……IS THE MANS TRUTH.
The Source of TRUTH that is IN a born again mans SPIRIT…….IS Gods TRUTH.

So Again, why are you posting to me, as if, I have said anything contrary to Gods Word?

Read your own posts again....as if I’m the only one who ends with ??

Not up for petty squabbles.

If you have anything positive to say..or the word of God...feel free to post it.

Not your personal upsets..

Stick with the topic in hand please.

 

[Taken]

What does the natural spirit of man was part of his natural body parts mean?....

What part of man was NOT formed from dust?

His hair, skin, bones, tissue, organs, brain, nerves, spirit, etc. every part of a man?

This is how I’m making sense of your words....what part of our natural body parts was separated from God, when Adam sinned?

Every part of man that God forms from dust.
Adam’s formed body became DEAD to God.

What did God “GIVE” Adam after God FORMED Adam? A soul with Gods LIFE in it.
DID Adams living soul DIE when Adam was sent out of the Garden? No.









I say his spirit went out from the presence of God..it didn’t die...it was just severed...God removed his presence from within his spirit?

We too inherited that sin from Adam.....the only way back to the Father is through the Son....when we become Born Again...our spirit has been made Alive by the Holy Spirit baptising us in the Spirit....much more to it than that...all a work of God, drawing us to Jesus by the power of his Spirit....
[/QUOTE]