Can a Believer Loose Their Salvation?

[rwb]

You weren't in the Garden to hear, heed or listen to anything.

All of humanity was there according to seed! We are born of the seed that came from Adam. The way I can hear what was spoken in the garden at creation is through the Word that God has graciously given us.

 

[rwb]

Are you excluded from that description?

None are excluded! This speaks of the condition of mankind before they are born again.

 

[JBO]

Actually there is! The Bible is filled with verses and passages to remind that we must become more and more dependent upon Him and less and less dependent upon self. Not because we can be tempted and fall away, but because God chastens whom He loves. And in this life, in this world there will be chastening from the Lord, but never rejection from the Lord. Because He loves to the uttermost those who are saved through Him.

True enough that God does not reject the believer. But He does not prevent you, the believer, from becoming and unbeliever. He will, through the Holy Spirit, give you all the help you ask for to continue you in your belief, but He does not prevent it. Belief is a condition for being saved, it is not a result of being saved.

 

[JBO]

All of humanity was there according to seed! We are born of the seed that came from Adam. The way I can hear what was spoken in the garden at creation is through the Word that God has graciously given us.

Born physically not spiritually. God does not blame you for what anyone else, including Adam, has done.

 

[rwb]

Zec 12:1 The burden of the word of the LORD concerning Israel: Thus declares the LORD, who stretched out the heavens and founded the earth and formed the spirit of man within him.

Do you believe that God formed your spirit within you? When? And if so, do you believe that God formed a dead spirit within you? I certainly don't believe that. I believe the spirit God formed within you was pure, alive and well. I believe you spiritually died when you sinned. It was then and only then that you were dead in your trespasses and sins (Eph 2:1; Col 2:13).

God created man with a body of flesh & bone and breathed into them the breath of life, which is man's spirit. The spirit in man from creation God called "very good". That spirit was made in the likeness and image of God, Who is Spirit. When man heeded the voice of evil and disobeyed God, man indeed did spiritually die, as you say became dead in trespasses and sins. That's why man must be born again through the Spirit of Christ to have eternal spiritual life again through Him. When our natural, dead in trespasses and sins spirit, has been born again through Christ's Spirit in us, we become new creatures through Him. Our spirit possesses eternal life and is that part of our living soul that never dies, even though our flesh & bone body shall. If we die having the Holy Spirit within, our spirit returns to God who gave it (Ecc12:7), still a living soul, but without physical form. In heaven we are a spiritual body of believers, waiting there for an hour coming when the last trumpet sounds, when our body shall be resurrected immortal & incorruptible and made alive again through our eternal spirit that returns with the Lord. (See Jo 5:28-29; !Cor 15:44; 51-54 1Th 4:14)

 

[rwb]

That is not what it says. It says that IF those believers fall away, it will be impossible to restore them again.

That's the way you want to read it, but that is NOT what it says!

 

[rwb]

Born physically not spiritually. God does not blame you for what anyone else, including Adam, has done.

Of course not! We aren't blamed for Adam's sins. But we are of the seed of Adam, natural, physical, of the earth humankind. As the seed of our father Adam, we now, since the fall, possess his likeness and image naturally.

 

[rwb]

Rom 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness."

Rom 4:23 But the words "it was counted to him" were not written for his sake alone,
Rom 4:24 but for ours also. It will be counted to us who believe in him who raised from the dead Jesus our Lord,

How did Abraham believe God? He heard the Word preached, the Gospel of Christ and by grace through faith he believed God.

Galatians 3:8 (KJV) And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

 

[rwb]

That doesn't make sense. You are saying that you are able to believe because you believe. Faith in God is belief in God. In the Greek, "faith" and 'belief" are the same word, there is no difference.

When you said, "when I heard the Gospel preached and through the power of the Holy Spirit believed in Christ for eternal life", that is faith in Christ for eternal life.

Faith is of God's grace, and believing naturally follows whosoever has received faith to believe. Faith is a noun, and belief/believing is a verb. The thing 'faith' that is according to God's grace, and the work of believing that we also do according to grace is that which has been ordained to man from God.

Ephesians 2:10 (KJV) For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Philippians 2:12-13 (KJV) Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out [not for] your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

 

[JBO]

God created man with a body of flesh & bone and breathed into them the breath of life, which is man's spirit. The spirit in man from creation God called "very good". That spirit was made in the likeness and image of God, Who is Spirit. When man heeded the voice of evil and disobeyed God, man indeed did spiritually die, as you say became dead in trespasses and sins. That's why man must be born again through the Spirit of Christ to have eternal spiritual life again through Him. When our natural, dead in trespasses and sins spirit, has been born again through Christ's Spirit in us, we become new creatures through Him. Our spirit possesses eternal life and is that part of our living soul that never dies, even though our flesh & bone body shall. If we die having the Holy Spirit within, our spirit returns to God who gave it (Ecc12:7), still a living soul, but without physical form. In heaven we are a spiritual body of believers, waiting there for an hour coming when the last trumpet sounds, when our body shall be resurrected immortal & incorruptible and made alive again through our eternal spirit that returns with the Lord. (See Jo 5:28-29; !Cor 15:44; 51-54 1Th 4:14)

Yes, all that is mostly true. The key issue here is who, you or Adam, heeded the voice of evil and disobeyed God causing your spiritual death. I believe that was you not Adam that caused your spirit to die.

 

[JBO]

That's the way you want to read it, but that is NOT what it says!

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit,
Heb 6:5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come,
Heb 6:6 and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.

That is precisely what it says.

 

[JBO]

Of course not! We aren't blamed for Adam's sins. But we are of the seed of Adam, natural, physical, of the earth humankind. As the seed of our father Adam, we now, since the fall, possess his likeness and image naturally.

Physically not spiritually.

 

[MatthewG]

How can a believer stop believing having the Holy Spirit of Christ within you? The Spirit within is always testifying of Christ to our spirit.

John 15:25-26 (KJV) But this cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause. But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

Turning towards not believing at all. While there are some who may quote the scripture it is impossible to turn them again to repentance, I believe that it is because it is an internal choice they have to make, and no one can convince them otherwise.

 

[JBO]

Faith is of God's grace, and believing naturally follows whosoever has received faith to believe.

That is simply wrong.

Faith is a noun, and belief/believing is a verb.

Belief is a noun. The verb from is to believe. Faith is a noun. There is no direct verb form in English, but the relevant verb is to have faith.

In the Greek the noun is πίστις [pistis], it means faith or belief; the verb form is πιστεύω [pisteuō], it means to believe or to have faith.

There is no distinction between faith and belief; there is a slight distinction between to believe or to have faith. Strictly speaking to have faith is synonymous with to believe IN. And if there is any question in the Greek the IN is included.

 

[rwb]

Yes, all that is mostly true. The key issue here is who, you or Adam, heeded the voice of evil and disobeyed God causing your spiritual death. I believe that was you not Adam that caused your spirit to die.

Yes, I agree! We heed the voice of evil as long as we remain in unbelief, of the spirit of the first Adam. Why are we no different than the first Adam before we are born again of His Spirit? We follow after the same image we identify with. In unbelief that spirit image, being dead in trespasses and sins, like that of Adam, follows after the spirit of evil. After the fall, the spirit in all mankind naturally died, so all of humanity after Adam being made in the likeness and image of their natural fallen flesh through the first Adam will die, until they are found through the second Adam, Christ.

Genesis 5:3 (KJV) And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:

This is why God tells us the sins of the father are visited upon his sons and daughters to the third and fourth generation of those who hate Him. It's not being blamed for the sins of the fathers, but that the sins of the fathers naturally follow in their offspring. Our offspring tend to walk in the sins of our fathers.

Exodus 20:5 (KJV) Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

1 Kings 15:3 (KJV) And he walked in all the sins of his father, which he had done before him: and his heart was not perfect with the LORD his God, as the heart of David his father.

 

[JBO]

Turning towards not believing at all. While there are some who may quote the scripture it is impossible to turn them again to repentance, I believe that it is because it is an internal choice they have to make, and no one can convince them otherwise.

I believe that impossibility in Hebrews 6 is poorly if not wrongly state. The NASB has corrected it, sort of.

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit,
Heb 6:5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come,
Heb 6:6 and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, WHILE they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.

The word "WHILE" rather than "since" is given in the margin. I think it is the better translation/interpretation. There is only one unforgiveable sin stated in the Bible, and falling away is not that.

 

[MatthewG]

I believe that impossibility in Hebrews 6 is poorly if not wrongly state. The NASB has corrected it, sort of.

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit,
Heb 6:5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come,
Heb 6:6 and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, WHILE they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.

The word "WHILE" rather than "since" is given in the margin. I think it is the better translation/interpretation. There is only one unforgiveable sin stated in the Bible, and falling away is not that.

It seems like faithlessness is which marks the sin upon us though all sins are paid for. Without faith its impossible to please God. That does seem like a better style and the NASB is a handy bible, that does make those slight changes.

 

[rwb]

That is simply wrong.

Belief is a noun. The verb from is to believe. Faith is a noun. There is no direct verb form in English, but the relevant verb is to have faith.

In the Greek the noun is πίστις [pistis], it means faith or belief; the verb form is πιστεύω [pisteuō], it means to believe or to have faith.

There is no distinction between faith and belief; there is a slight distinction between to believe or to have faith. Strictly speaking to have faith is synonymous with to believe IN. And if there is any question in the Greek the IN is included.

Faith

Strong's Greek Dictionary
4102. πίστις pistis (pístis)
Search for G4102 in KJVSL; in KJV.
πίστις pístis, pis'-tis
from G3982; persuasion, i.e. credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), especially reliance upon Christ for salvation; abstractly, constancy in such profession; by extension, the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself:—assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity.

feminine noun

Believe

Strong's Greek Dictionary
4100. πιστεύω pisteuo (pisteúō)
Search for G4100 in KJVSL; in KJV.
πιστεύω pisteúō, pist-yoo'-o
from G4102; to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), i.e. credit; by implication, to entrust (especially one's spiritual well-being to Christ):—believe(-r), commit (to trust), put in trust with.

verb

Faith as the definition shows is persuasion and moral conviction through the Gospel preached in the power of the Holy Spirit, especially reliance upon Christ for salvation. From faith imputed to us according to God's grace, believing naturally comes as we entrust our well-being to Christ, putting our trust in Him.

 

[JBO]

Yes, I agree! We heed the voice of evil as long as we remain in unbelief, of the spirit of the first Adam. Why are we no different than the first Adam before we are born again of His Spirit? We follow after the same image we identify with. In unbelief that spirit image, being dead in trespasses and sins, like that of Adam, follows after the spirit of evil. After the fall, the spirit in all mankind naturally died, so all of humanity after Adam being made in the likeness and image of their natural fallen flesh through the first Adam will die, until they are found through the second Adam, Christ.

Genesis 5:3 (KJV) And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:

This is why God tells us the sins of the father are visited upon his sons and daughters to the third and fourth generation of those who hate Him. It's not being blamed for the sins of the fathers, but that the sins of the fathers naturally follow in their offspring. Our offspring tend to walk in the sins of our fathers.

Exodus 20:5 (KJV) Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

1 Kings 15:3 (KJV) And he walked in all the sins of his father, which he had done before him: and his heart was not perfect with the LORD his God, as the heart of David his father.

But you are not dead in your trespasses and sins until you trespass and/or sin.

Genesis 5:3 is clearly speaking about the physical image not the spiritual image which is God (Gen 9:6).

The sins of the father which are visited upon his sons are physical results if any of the sins of the father, such as might result from the fathers getting drunk, or speeding, or any number of other things. Such results are not spiritual. There is the entire chapter 18 in Ezekiel which establishes that.

 

[JBO]

Faith as the definition shows is persuasion and moral conviction through the Gospel preached in the power of the Holy Spirit, especially reliance upon Christ for salvation. From faith imputed to us according to God's grace, believing naturally comes as we entrust our well-being to Christ, putting our trust in Him.

Faith is not imputed! ! !