Romans 11 and the real Replacement Theology

[Zao is life]

I asked my mom once, what nationality am I?
She said I was a mixed breed lol. I think i'm part english, french, german, and irish.

No wonder we think alike in some respects. I'm part English, French, German and Dutch.

Really sorry about the Irish.

I mean really sorry it's not included for me :)

 

[Peterlag]

Moses did describe the righteousness of the law, and as Paul explained, though he described the righteousness of the law and said that the man who does those things shall live by them, it was always however, impossible for man, because of sin:

3 For they, being ignorant of God's righteousness and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves to the righteousness of God.
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness for everyone who believes.
5 For Moses writes of the righteousness which is of the Law, "The man who does those things shall live by them."
6 But the righteousness of faith says this: "Do not say in your heart, Who shall ascend into Heaven?" that is, to bring Christ down;
7 or "Who shall descend into the deep?"; that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.
8 But what does it say? "The word is near you, even in your mouth and in your heart"; that is, the word of faith which we proclaim;
9 Because if you confess the Lord Jesus, and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved.
10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth one confesses unto salvation.
11 For the Scripture says, "Everyone believing on Him shall not be put to shame."

And Paul was addressing Jewish and Gentile Christians.

If he was addressing Gentile Christians. Then why tell them how to get born again?

 

[Peterlag]

Romans 11 is about Christians: Jewish and Gentile Christians.

It's also about non-Christians: Those Jews who were broken off through their unbelief + all Gentiles who do not believe.

It does not say that it's about Gentile Christians. It does not even say he's writing to Gentiles. He says
my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.

For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.

For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

 

[Peterlag]

So you should stop adding all kinds of your own ideas, then.

When God says the saints He is talking about Jewish Christians, and Gentile Christians. Same when He says the church of God. Stop adding all kinds of your own ideas. Once you are done there will be nothing left of the scriptures.

What's the difference between Jewish Christians and Gentile Christians? Whatever your answer is... will not be how God looks at it. That which is spiritual is not looking at what part of the country one lives at. And the Scriptures write based on what is spiritual. The religious world does not seem to be able to see the Christ apart from seeing God through their own image.

 

[Peterlag]

Adam was a type of Christ does not mean Adam was Christ. Only Christ is fully God and fully man. Joseph was also a type of Christ. It also does not mean he was Christ. He was not fully God and fully man either.

Your argument is a nothing-burger. You use a lot of nothing-burger arguments in your confusion.

Do you have a verse that says Joseph was a type of Christ?

 

[Zao is life]

If he was addressing Gentile Christians. Then why tell them how to get born again?

Who is "they", "them", "their" and "themselves" in verses 1-3? And what is the name by which Paul is calling them?

Who is Paul talking to when he's talking about them, in your opinion?

Romans 10
1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believes.
5 For Moses describes the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which does those things shall live by them.
6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaks likewise, Say not in your heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above)
7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
8 But what says it? The word (o. rhema) is nigh you, even in your mouth, and in your heart: that is, the word (o. rhema) of faith, which we preach;
9 That if you shall confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and shall believe in your heart that God has raised him from the dead, you shall be saved.
10 For with the heart man believes unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture says, Whosoever believes on him shall not be ashamed.
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

 

[Zao is life]

Do you have a verse that says Joseph was a type of Christ?

There is no verse that says that Joseph is a type of Christ. There are many aspects of Joseph's life experience that show that he was one of a number of types of Christ. Joshua was another type of Christ. There is no verse that says that Joshua was a type of Christ.

I could go on. But it's not pertinent to this subject, and your red herring has landed on your foot.

 

[Peterlag]

The words "of the United States" is not mentioned every time the words "President Biden" are mentioned either. According to your logic if it does not say of the United States it means he is not the President of the United States.

And if it does not say of America then it's not talking about the United States of America, according to your logic.

Jews called to faith in Christ (Romans 9:24) = Jewish Christians. Gentiles called to faith in Christ (Romans 9:24) = Gentile Christians.

Jewish Christians are mentioned in Romans 11:5. Gentile Christians among the Jewish Christian remnant are mentioned in Romans 11:17, and from there onward.
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Use the same logic that you are using here now and go tell Biden that if he is called President Biden but it does not say of the United States, then he is not the President of the United States. You might confuse poor old Biden but no one else will believe you.

Perhaps you cannot understand because you see this through your own image. It's not how to get Christ to live within our natural realm, because the things of the spirit cannot enter the things of the flesh, and then be subject to the obedience of the natural realm. God's classification of people in the New Testament are Jews, Gentiles, and Christian. There's nothing else there.

 

[Peterlag]

No need for a song and dance. You're either unable or unwilling to answer.

You ask a stupid question you get a stupid answer.

 

[Zao is life]

What's the difference between Jewish Christians and Gentile Christians? Whatever your answer is... will not be how God looks at it.

Are claiming to be God then? Because it's not the way you look at it - but you can't look at it from God's perspective, because youa re unable to, being blinded by your false interpretations of most of Romans 9 - 11.

That which is spiritual is not looking at what part of the country one lives at. And the Scriptures write based on what is spiritual. The religious world does not seem to be able to see the Christ apart from seeing God through their own image.

Your false assertions never equate with facts.

 

[Peterlag]

Are claiming to be God then? Because it's not the way you look at it - but you can't look at it from God's perspective, because youa re unable to, being blinded by your false interpretations of most of Romans 9 - 11.

Your false assertions never equate with facts.

I have given you a whole bunch of facts.

 

[Peterlag]

There is no verse that says that Joseph is a type of Christ. There are many aspects of Joseph's life experience that show that he was one of a number of types of Christ. Joshua was another type of Christ. There is no verse that says that Joshua was a type of Christ.

I could go on. But it's not pertinent to this subject, and your red herring has landed on your foot.

Funny how you accuse me of not providing facts when I put Scripture in front of you and you put your ideas in front of me with no Scripture.

 

[Peterlag]

Who is "they", "them", "their" and "themselves" in verses 1-3? And what is the name by which Paul is calling them?

Who is Paul talking to when he's talking about them, in your opinion?

Romans 10
1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believes.
5 For Moses describes the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which does those things shall live by them.
6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaks likewise, Say not in your heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above)
7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
8 But what says it? The word (o. rhema) is nigh you, even in your mouth, and in your heart: that is, the word (o. rhema) of faith, which we preach;
9 That if you shall confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and shall believe in your heart that God has raised him from the dead, you shall be saved.
10 For with the heart man believes unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture says, Whosoever believes on him shall not be ashamed.
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.

2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.

3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

 

[Ziggy]

No wonder we think alike in some respects. I'm part English, French, German and Dutch.

Really sorry about the Irish.

I mean really sorry it's not included for me :)

My Grandfather on my Mother's side is Bailey. So I'm assuming thats Irish.
lol
Hugs

 

[Zao is life]

Funny how you accuse me of not providing facts when I put Scripture in front of you and you put your ideas in front of me with no Scripture.

It's not "my ideas". There are many who see all the ways in which Joseph is a type of Christ when they read Genesis, and there is enough teaching on it easily accessible in the Internet . You are exposing once again by your own words either your own ignorance of scripture, or you own lack of understanding of scripture.

 

[Zao is life]

Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.

2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.

3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

Stop side-stepping the question.

Who is Paul talking TO about THEM?

@Peterlag You've admitted you do not believe in the Trinity, but you have not said whether you are Modalist, Monarchian, Unitarian, JW, Mormon, or what your belief is. It would help to know?

 

[Ziggy]

If he was addressing Gentile Christians. Then why tell them how to get born again?

ok I see the dilemma..
Paul was preaching to the gentiles concerning the difference between law and faith.
Perhaps he was in his teaching mode and not all had turned to Christ but were questioning the difference.

There were many questions even Jesus' disciples were struggling with:
Mar 2:18
And the disciples of John and of the Pharisees used to fast: and they come and say unto him, Why do the disciples of John and of the Pharisees fast, but thy disciples fast not?

There are still many questions being answered even today, even though the answers can be found by seeking and asking.

Paul was a teacher, teaching. Not all the students perhaps were saved. And maybe they had questions.
That isn't to say that there weren't christians among the gentiles, that were gentiles themselves but yet were already born again.
Not everyone was saved at the same time. Many were still learning and questioning, some staying and some leaving.
Some understanding and some confused.

Thats my opinion.
Hugs

 

[Ziggy]

Perhaps you cannot understand because you see this through your own image. It's not how to get Christ to live within our natural realm, because the things of the spirit cannot enter the things of the flesh, and then be subject to the obedience of the natural realm. God's classification of people in the New Testament are Jews, Gentiles, and Christian. There's nothing else there.

You forgot heathen

 

[Zao is life]

ok I see the dilemma..
Paul was preaching to the gentiles concerning the difference between law and faith.
Perhaps he was in his teaching mode and not all had turned to Christ but were questioning the difference.

There were many questions even Jesus' disciples were struggling with:
Mar 2:18
And the disciples of John and of the Pharisees used to fast: and they come and say unto him, Why do the disciples of John and of the Pharisees fast, but thy disciples fast not?

There are still many questions being answered even today, even though the answers can be found by seeking and asking.

Paul was a teacher, teaching. Not all the students perhaps were saved. And maybe they had questions.
That isn't to say that there weren't christians among the gentiles, that were gentiles themselves but yet were already born again.
Not everyone was saved at the same time. Many were still learning and questioning, some staying and some leaving.
Some understanding and some confused.

Thats my opinion.
Hugs

I don't think that's the dilemma, to be honest. I think he does know Paul was teaching "somebody" (as in a group of people) about "somebody else" (as in about a different group of people). I asked him who in his opinion Paul was talking TO about "THEM" and who "THEY" are. But he hasn't answered yet. Maybe he still will.

 

[Zao is life]

My Grandfather on my Mother's side is Bailey. So I'm assuming thats Irish.
lol
Hugs

My grandmother on my mother's side was the great-great granddaughter of one of the 1820 British settlers in South Africa (a well-known historical year in South African history, but she also had Dutch and French ancestry).

My great-grandmother (my grandmother's mother in law) was partly a descendant of the French Huguenots who settled in the 17th century (late 1600's) in South Africa, and partly of Dutch descent. When she was a little girl she was in a British concentration camp erected for Boer wives and children whose farms and lands the British had burned in a scorched-earth policy while their husbands were away fighting the British in the Anglo-Boer war.

All German on my father's side.

My roots in South Africa go deep, but nowadays myself and all those who look like me are considered by many people here a "settler" or a "colonialist", just like Jews in Israel are considered "settlers" and "colonialists" by many Arabs.

Anyway, that's politics, and life.