Romans 11 and the real Replacement Theology

[Zao is life]

1. John taught us that ALL humans who do not believe in the Son of God are anti-Christ(ian). (1 John 2:22-23).

2. Paul taught that not ALL naturally-born descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are Israel (Romans 9:6-8), because those of the naturally-born descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob who do not believe in the seed of Abraham (Christ) are broken off from God's covenant-promises that He made with Abraham and his seed (Romans 11:1-5, 17).

They are broken off from the Israel of God. (Galatians 6:16).
​

3. Jeremiah said that God would not cut off ALL the seed of Israel when God brings in a New Covenant (Jeremiah 31:36-37), meaning that a remnant would be saved - just as occurred when Jesus had died and risen again (as Paul stated in Romans 11:1-5).

​

4. Paul taught us that Gentiles who do believe are grafted into Israel - into God's covenant-promises with Abraham and his seed - and are among the remnant of the naturally-born descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob who believe. (Romans 11:17).

5. Peter and Paul both taught us that together these Jews and Gentiles in Christ are the living stones that are God's Tabernacle, indwelt by the Holy Spirit. (Ephesians 2:19-22; 1 Peter 2:5).

6. Paul taught that in Christ there is neither Jew nor Gentile. (Galatians 3:28).

7. Therefore simple arithmetic and logic tells us that the church = Israel = the church.

The person who coined the phrase "Replacement Theology" in respect of what Jesus and His apostles taught is very, very confused, does not understand basic arithmetic, and exalts one anti-Christ(ian) nation above all other anti-Christ(ian) people merely because the nation that he exalts above all other unbelievers, are naturally-born descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

Those who follow this heresy are so confused that they do not even realize that they are practicing replacement theology by replacing Christ - the seed who inherits all the promises of God contained in God's covenant with Abraham and his seed - with people who reject Him.

They also fail to realize that the Deliverer who came out of Zion is Jesus, and the day in which He made a covenant (the new covenant) with Israel was the day He took away their (and our) sins (Romans 11:26-27).

They do not understand that ever since the Deliverer came out of Zion and made a new covenant with Israel in the day He took away their (and our sins):-

(a) The fullness of the Gentiles is being grafted into Israel through faith in Christ, sharing with the naturally-born believing descendants of Israel in the root and fatness of the Olive tree; and

(b) IF (Romans 11:23) an unbelieving Jewish person repents of his or her unbelief, the person will be grafted back into the Israel that he is a naturally born descendant of ("their own Olive tree") - and this is because:

i. For the sake of God's promise to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, they are still loved.
ii. God had mercy on Gentiles who believe through their unbelief.
iii. God is able to graft them in again.

Those who follow this heresy of replacing Israel in Christ with those who are not in Christ, calling them "the chosen nation, or "the elect of God" are so confused that they think the Deliverer is still going to come out of Zion in order to take away ungodliness from Jacob by taking away their sins, and making a new covenant with Jacob (the house of Israel and the house of Judah) in His blood.

They do not understand that when Jesus returns, He returns in judgment of unbelievers, He is not going to return as the Deliverer who takes away sin a second time.​

 

[Arthur81]

1. John taught us that ALL humans who do not believe in the Son of God are anti-Christ(ian). (1 John 2:22-23).

2. Paul taught that not ALL naturally-born descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are Israel (Romans 9:6-8), because those of the naturally-born descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob who do not believe in the seed of Abraham (Christ) are broken off from God's covenant-promises that He made with Abraham and his seed (Romans 11:1-5, 17).

They are broken off from the Israel of God. (Galatians 6:16).
​

3. Jeremiah said that God would not cut off ALL the seed of Israel when God brings in a New Covenant (Jeremiah 31:36-37), meaning that a remnant would be saved - just as occurred when Jesus had died and risen again (as Paul stated in Romans 11:1-5).

​

4. Paul taught us that Gentiles who do believe are grafted into Israel - into God's covenant-promises with Abraham and his seed - and are among the remnant of the naturally-born descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob who believe. (Romans 11:17).

5. Peter and Paul both taught us that together these Jews and Gentiles in Christ are the living stones that are God's Tabernacle, indwelt by the Holy Spirit. (Ephesians 2:19-22; 1 Peter 2:5).

6. Paul taught that in Christ there is neither Jew nor Gentile. (Galatians 3:28).

7. Therefore simple arithmetic and logic tells us that the church = Israel = the church.

The person who coined the phrase "Replacement Theology" in respect of what Jesus and His apostles taught is very, very confused, does not understand basic arithmetic, and exalts one anti-Christ(ian) nation above all other anti-Christ(ian) people merely because the nation that he exalts above all other unbelievers, are naturally-born descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

Those who follow this heresy are so confused that they do not even realize that they are practicing replacement theology by replacing Christ - the seed who inherits all the promises of God contained in God's covenant with Abraham and his seed - with people who reject Him.

They also fail to realize that the Deliverer who came out of Zion is Jesus, and the day in which He made a covenant (the new covenant) with Israel was the day He took away their (and our) sins (Romans 11:26-27).

They do not understand that ever since the Deliverer came out of Zion and made a new covenant with Israel in the day He took away their (and our sins):-

(a) The fullness of the Gentiles is being grafted into Israel through faith in Christ, sharing with the naturally-born believing descendants of Israel in the root and fatness of the Olive tree; and

(b) IF (Romans 11:23) an unbelieving Jewish person repents of his or her unbelief, the person will be grafted back into the Israel that he is a naturally born descendant of ("their own Olive tree") - and this is because:

i. For the sake of God's promise to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, they are still loved.
ii. God had mercy on Gentiles who believe through their unbelief.
iii. God is able to graft them in again.

Those who follow this heresy of replacing Israel in Christ with those who are not in Christ, calling them "the chosen nation, or "the elect of God" are so confused that they think the Deliverer is still going to come out of Zion in order to take away ungodliness from Jacob by taking away their sins, and making a new covenant with Jacob (the house of Israel and the house of Judah) in His blood.

They do not understand that when Jesus returns, He returns in judgment of unbelievers, He is not going to return as the Deliverer who takes away sin a second time.​

You have posted a very interesting article. I want to study it more because it seems I'm in agreement with it. I look at the church, as God's New Covenant people, Israel continued... not replaced. I accept the RSV rendering of the following:

"But far be it from me to glory except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. For neither circumcision counts for anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation. Peace and mercy be upon all who walk by this rule, upon the Israel of God." (Gal 6:14-16 RSV)

 

[Cassandra]

Yes!Exactly what this parable speaks of !!!!!


Matthew 21:33-43
33 Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country:
34 And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it.
35 And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another.
36 Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise.
37 But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son.
38 But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.
39 And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him.
40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?


41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.


42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?


43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Matthew 21:42-46

• "Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
• Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
• And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
• And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.
• But when they sought to lay hands on him, they feared the multitude, because they took him for a prophet."

Clearly, Christ spoke of the unfaithful of national Israel in rejecting him (the head of the corner) and the subsequent taking of the Kingdom representative from this nation, and given to a nation bringing forth fruits (Colossians 1:5-6), which would obviously be the Church Christ is the foundation stone of. Selah!

The nation of Israel that once represented the kingdom of God in the Old Testament...

Exodus 19:5-6

• "Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
• And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel."

...is NOW no longer representing that kingdom, the Church is NOW that nation representing the Kingdom:

1st Peter 2:9-10

• "But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
• Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy."

I mean, how much plainer can it get? If we will receive it, the Israel of God is the Church TODAY! Moreover, by Christ's use of the phrase, "The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner" in Matthew 21, it is perfectly clear He spoke of Israel losing that kingdom representation because they rejected Him. And the Church being given it, and that it would bring forth fruit. And isn't that exactly what happened? Hello? Where is the mystery? Only those with a spiritual ear will receive it. If you seek truth, look at the context of Matthew, then look at the whole context of 1st Peter? Clearly this is what God spoke of.

1st Peter 2:6-9

• "Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
• Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
• And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
• But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:"

All in context. That's the Church that Christ talked about there! And in perfect agreement with Psalms 118:22 and Christ's Words in Matthew 21. So when we compare scripture with scripture, which is the only sound hermeneutic, it is perfectly clear what "nation" God took it away from, and what Nation God gave it to. The Gentiles, who are NOW grafted into the same Covenant tree of Israel, to become spiritual Jews, and spiritual children of God receive the SAME PROMISE. Again, if we will receive it.

Ephesians 2:11-22

• "Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
• That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
• But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
• For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
• Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
• And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
• And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
• For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
• Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
• And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
• In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
• In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit."

OK? formerly Gentiles, aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, are NOW made one with Israel. God's word interpreting scripture is better than man's word any day. And God bless those who agree.

Jeremiah 17:13-14

• "O LORD, the hope of Israel, all that forsake thee shall be ashamed, and they that depart from me shall be written in the earth, because they have forsaken the LORD, the fountain of living waters.
• Heal me, O LORD, and I will be healed; save me and I will be saved, for you are the one I praise."

It is clear, the hope of Israel is the Lord, the hope of all ages. It is nothing more and nothing less. It's not the "restoration of Jewish nationalism", it's not real estate, it is not land, it's not armies, it's not an earthly kingdom, and its not misguided Christians. The hope of Israel is identical with the hope of the Body of Christ. And although there are those who would like to rewrite scripture and redefine God's words, what God says and what men claim God really means, is two different things. The fact is, the hope of Israel is contrary to Jewish expectations, and that rubs men (both Jews and many Gentiles) the wrong way.

 

[Davy]

No such thing as "Replacement Theology", except in the minds of deceived Jews.

Per the Jewish historian Josephus (100 A.D.), he said the title of 'Jew' began to be used only for those of the "house of Judah" that returned back to Jerusalem from the 70 years Babylon captivity.

Biblical and Historical FACT: the ten northern tribes of Israel NEVER went into captivity to Babylon by Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon. Only the Jews of the southern 3 tribe "kingdom of Judah" (Jews) went captive to Babylon by Nebuchadnezzar. The ten northern tribes of Israel were not even present in the holy land when Judah was taken captive to Babylon.

Many of today's Jews try to hide this history, but it is all written of in God's Old Testament Word.

The phrase 'ten lost tribes' about the ten scattered tribes of the "kingdom of Israel", which existed in the northern holy land, cannot be ignored, even though many Jews today ignore it, and on purpose.

The following is prophesy of future events that occur on the day of Christ's future return...

Isa 11:12-13
12 And He shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.

13 The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off: Ephraim shall not envy Judah, and Judah shall not vex Ephraim.
KJV

Per the above, it points that today, Ephraim envies Judah, but Judah vexes Ephraim. The very matter I'm talking about here is about this, even the JEW's false doctrine they created called "Replacement Theology".

Some of them will claim it's only a seminary term that scholars came up with to show the early Church's attitudes in Europe, as if it is a valid term. It's not a valid term, it is term directed for the purpose of deception away from what is written in God's Word, and to 'vex' Ephraim.

So what is meant by that contrast above about Ephraim and Judah? Ask your seminary egg-heads if they know? And if they do know, they probably wouldn't tell you anyway, because of their status quo on the matter against God's Word.

Starting per 1 Kings 11, God split the old kingdom of Israel into two separate kingdoms, because of Solomon playing the spiritual harlot against Him by Solomon allowing his many pagan wives to bring their idol worship in among the children of Israel.

The southern "kingdom of Judah" at Jerusalem-Judea was reigned by Solomon's son Rehoboam of the tribe of JUDAH. This kingdom only was made up of the tribes of Judah and Benjamin at first, but then came to include the tribe of Levi, as they were prevented from their priest duty in the northern kingdom of ten tribes.

The northern "kingdom of Israel" was made up of 10 tribes which God gave to Jeroboam as king over, who was of the tribe of EPHRAIM. The tribe of Ephraim made up the largest of the 10 tribes. This northern kingdom OF 10 tribes actually made up the MAJORITY of the children of Israel. Jeroboam then setup 2 gold calf idols in false worship to try and prevent the 10 tribes from going down to Jerusalem to worship. And he made common priests of the people, which caused the Levites in the north to go down and join Judah. A small remnant of out the ten tribes also refused the calf idols, and went down to Jerusalem and joined with Judah.

Both 'kingdoms' had war against each other.

God then eventually got fed up with the gold calf idols of the northern ten tribe "kingdom of Israel" under Jeroboam of Ephraim, so God scattered them out of the holy land by the kings of Assyria, never to return as a majority, even to this day. They were taken to Assyia and to the lands of the Medes, where they began to lose their heritage as part of old Israel. Eventually they took on Gentile names, and began living among the Gentiles, as Gentiles. Only a remnant would know their actual heritage during their scattering (see Scottish Declaration of Arbroath -13th century). They would cross into eastern Europe around the Black Sea, and through the Caucasus Mountains, becoming known as Caucasians, and would populate Asia Minor and Europe, being as many as the stars of the sky and sands of the sea, as it still is to this day. There God would speak softly to them, and send them The Gospel of Jesus Christ, starting Christ's Church in Asia Minor and Europe.

But the "kingdom of Judah" did not end until about 120 years later, when Nebuchadezzar, king of Babylon, came upon Jerusalem and destroyed Jerusalem and Solomon's temple. He then took those of the 3 tribe "house of Judah" there captive to Babylon for seventy years. The only ones that went captive to Babylon under Nebuchadnezzar were the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, Levi, and the remnant of northern tribes, and the strangers that lived in Judea. After the Babylon captivity, only a SMALL REMNANT of these returned to Jerusalem to rebuild the city, temple, and wall. THESE... called themselves 'JEWS' according to the Jewish historian Josephus. These only... were descendants of the children of Israel that dwelt in the holy land at that time, and even TODAY only these JEWS scattered abroad are being called to return to today's state of Israel.

None of the lost ten tribes are being called by the state of Israel to return today, because they and the world, and even the lost ten tribes, do not know... who they really are, having lost knowledge of their Israelite heritage long ago. God had promised that Judah would not lose knowledge of their Israelite heritage, His sabbaths and feast days, new moons, etc., but that Israel would (i.e., ten tribes).

When Jesus returns, everyone will understand this.

But for today still, EPHRAIM (representing the scattered lost ten tribes of Israel among the Gentiles), is jealous of JUDAH (the Jews, which actually amounts to only about 1/3 of all Israelites of the 'seed').

Christ's Church, of BOTH believing Israelite, and believing Gentile, are both under God's covenants and promises now that were originally given only to Israel. Apostle Paul reveals this in the Ephesians 2 Scripture, even with the phrase "commonwealth of Israel" as a New Testament label for Christ's Church of both believing Israelite and believing Gentile together as one body under Jesus Christ.

Thus the Jews today vex Ephraim (Ephraim today represents the scattered ten tribes in The Gospel of Jesus Christ), to whom God's Birthright promises fell upon in final per 1 Chronicles 5. Per Genesis 48, Ephraim's seed was to become "a multitude of nations", which is about the prophecy of The Gospel going to the lost sheep of the "house of Israel" (ten tribes).

 

[ewq1938]

Rom 11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
Rom 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. (the idea of replacement theology which Paul says is not true)
Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

They were broken off not to be replaced by newly grafted branches but solely because they were non believers in Christ. Gentiles being added to this tree is not why other branches were removed.


Replacement theology is scripturally incorrect according to Paul. The true theology would be "Removal Theology" because people are removed from the tree due to unbelief.


Gill:

Romans 11:19
Thou wilt say then,.... This is an objection which the apostle foresaw the Gentiles would make against what he had said, and in favour of their boasting;


Barnes:

The branches were broken off ... - The objection is, that the branches were broken off in order that others might be grafted in. To this Paul replies in the next verse, that this was not the reason why they were rejected, but their unbelief was the cause.


Replacement theology is false. Removal theology is truth.

For those that think removal theology is replacement theology re-named:

The problem is no one is replaced. The branches that are removed have their places also removed. Paul clearly states that no one is removed so another can take their place. What happens is natural branches are removed, and new branches are added making them just a part of the tree as the natural branches are. Gentiles join believing Jews as part of the same group. Removing people and adding new people doesn't equal replacement especially since a removed branch can be RETURNED TO IT'S PREVIOUS PLACE if they turn to Christ. That alone proves no one took that branches place since the place is saved for them in case they are no longer in unbelief. The tree has plenty of new places. No old place is re-used in the analogy and even in real world grafting you don't remove a branch that was weak, dead or producing no fruit or bad fruit and attach a new branch at that same spot. Grafting is always a new place on a tree that didn't use to have a bad branch. So, replacement is not true as far as what Paul wrote about nor is it true in literal branch grafting, exactly why Paul uses the analogy.

 

[rwb]

Matthew 21:42-46

• "Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
• Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
• And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
• And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.
• But when they sought to lay hands on him, they feared the multitude, because they took him for a prophet."

Clearly, Christ spoke of the unfaithful of national Israel in rejecting him (the head of the corner) and the subsequent taking of the Kingdom representative from this nation, and given to a nation bringing forth fruits (Colossians 1:5-6), which would obviously be the Church Christ is the foundation stone of. Selah!

The nation of Israel that once represented the kingdom of God in the Old Testament...

Exodus 19:5-6

• "Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
• And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel."

...is NOW no longer representing that kingdom, the Church is NOW that nation representing the Kingdom:

1st Peter 2:9-10

• "But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
• Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy."

I mean, how much plainer can it get? If we will receive it, the Israel of God is the Church TODAY! Moreover, by Christ's use of the phrase, "The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner" in Matthew 21, it is perfectly clear He spoke of Israel losing that kingdom representation because they rejected Him. And the Church being given it, and that it would bring forth fruit. And isn't that exactly what happened? Hello? Where is the mystery? Only those with a spiritual ear will receive it. If you seek truth, look at the context of Matthew, then look at the whole context of 1st Peter? Clearly this is what God spoke of.

1st Peter 2:6-9

• "Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
• Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
• And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
• But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:"

All in context. That's the Church that Christ talked about there! And in perfect agreement with Psalms 118:22 and Christ's Words in Matthew 21. So when we compare scripture with scripture, which is the only sound hermeneutic, it is perfectly clear what "nation" God took it away from, and what Nation God gave it to. The Gentiles, who are NOW grafted into the same Covenant tree of Israel, to become spiritual Jews, and spiritual children of God receive the SAME PROMISE. Again, if we will receive it.

Ephesians 2:11-22

• "Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
• That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
• But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
• For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
• Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
• And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
• And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
• For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
• Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
• And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
• In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
• In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit."

OK? formerly Gentiles, aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, are NOW made one with Israel. God's word interpreting scripture is better than man's word any day. And God bless those who agree.

Jeremiah 17:13-14

• "O LORD, the hope of Israel, all that forsake thee shall be ashamed, and they that depart from me shall be written in the earth, because they have forsaken the LORD, the fountain of living waters.
• Heal me, O LORD, and I will be healed; save me and I will be saved, for you are the one I praise."

It is clear, the hope of Israel is the Lord, the hope of all ages. It is nothing more and nothing less. It's not the "restoration of Jewish nationalism", it's not real estate, it is not land, it's not armies, it's not an earthly kingdom, and its not misguided Christians. The hope of Israel is identical with the hope of the Body of Christ. And although there are those who would like to rewrite scripture and redefine God's words, what God says and what men claim God really means, is two different things. The fact is, the hope of Israel is contrary to Jewish expectations, and that rubs men (both Jews and many Gentiles) the wrong way.

This is why I believe the Church (universal) are the chosen generation/holy nation that is the generation Christ says, "This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled." The Church will remain alive upon the earth until the spiritual Kingdom of God is complete during this time symbolized a thousand years. When the seventh trumpet sounds Satan will be loosed from his pit and given a "little season." When he thinks he shall have victory over what remains of the Church on the earth, fire will come down from God out of heaven and devour them all. The spiritual Kingdom of God is complete, time has expired for proclaiming the Gospel, Christ returns, and the Church is caught up to meet the Lord in the air clothed in immortality & incorruption just before the wrath of God is released through the fire from heaven.

 

[Jack]

I don't think it's gonna go well for the Christian Identity thieves on Judgment Day trying to steal Israel's identity.

 

[Davy]

This is why I believe the Church (universal) are the chosen generation/holy nation that is the generation Christ says, "This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled." The Church will remain alive upon the earth until the spiritual Kingdom of God is complete during this time symbolized a thousand years. When the seventh trumpet sounds Satan will be loosed from his pit and given a "little season." When he thinks he shall have victory over what remains of the Church on the earth, fire will come down from God out of heaven and devour them all. The spiritual Kingdom of God is complete, time has expired for proclaiming the Gospel, Christ returns, and the Church is caught up to meet the Lord in the air clothed in immortality & incorruption just before the wrath of God is released through the fire from heaven.

Sorry, but some of those points are not Biblical.

The 'generation' of the parable of a fig tree is about the final generation of this present world that will 'see' Jesus' future return. That Scripture in Christ's Olivet discourse has nothing to do with any 'universal' Church idea. But indeed Christ's Church is to be the holy nation of priests first prophesied to Israel in The Old Testament, and then confirmed by Apostle Peter in The New Testament.

The 7th Trumpet of Rev.11 happens on the last day of this present world with Christ's return to reign for the "thousand years" of Rev.20. That is actually when Satan will be locked in his pit prison for that thousand years, and released at the end of it to go tempt the nations one last time.

The "last trump" 'change' "at the twinkling of an eye" happens at the same moment as God's consuming fire burns man's works off this earth. We will be 'caught up' in our spirit bodies once that happens, to Jesus and the asleep saints He brings with Him, on His way to the Mount of Olives on earth to begin His 1,000 years reign over the nations.

 

[TribulationSigns]

This is why I believe the Church (universal) are the chosen generation/holy nation that is the generation Christ says, "This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled." The Church will remain alive upon the earth until the spiritual Kingdom of God is complete during this time symbolized a thousand years.

I disagree. The chosen generation or spiritual kingdom of God will NEVER pass away. The Lord talked about the generation of evil or the generation of vipers.

When the seventh trumpet sounds Satan will be loosed from his pit and given a "little season."

I disagree. The seventh Trumpet is the last trump when Christ returns and the church raptures out. The loosening of Satan will take place BEFORE that.

When he thinks he shall have victory over what remains of the Church on the earth, fire will come down from God out of heaven and devour them all.

Satan will not have "victory" over the church for he is already a defeated foe since the Cross. He was just used by God as a judgment against His unfaithful church.

The spiritual Kingdom of God is complete, time has expired for proclaiming the Gospel, Christ returns, and the Church is caught up to meet the Lord in the air clothed in immortality & incorruption just before the wrath of God is released through the fire from heaven.

Rev 11:7-10
(7) And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
(8) And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
(9) And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
(10) And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

The Two Witnesses or Two Prophets are actually Elect who have received the power of the Holy Spirit to preach the salvation gospel to the whole world since Pentecost. The Two Witnesses preached as long as Satan/Beast was kept in the bottomless pit. After God see that all of His Elect has been secured (saved) through the tesitmony of Two Witnesses, their testimony is finished. That is when Satan will finally be loosened from the bottomless pit allowed by God to wage spiritual war against the Two Witnesses (Elect) IN THE CHURCH which is symbolically the great city to overcome them and kill (silence) them. How? By the false gospels of the false propehts and christs sent in by Satan to deceive those people who have NOT yet been sealed by God in the church, Revelation 9:4. The false prophets and christs, as well as people deceived by them are sick and tired of hearing the truthful testimony of Two Witnesses because it torments them about their sins. Now that they have overcome the Two Witnesses with false gospels coming out of the mouths of the false christs and prophets. They do not care if the truth has been silenced (did not bother to bury them) and have rejoiced with their false doctrine and exchange among themselves. This is how Satan, through the false prophets and christs, start to take over the control of God's congregation and will be for a little season. My point is...there will be some time for all of this before Christ returns and the rapture. The spiritual wars, spiritual famines, and spiritual sickness must take place in the church FIRST before Christ return. It is only a beginning - a beginning of sorrows.

Mat 24:5-8
(5) For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
(6) And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
(7) For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
(8) All these are the beginning of sorrows.

The spiritual war between holy nation and evil nation in the church all over the world will take place. There will be spiritual famines where lack of bread (gospel). In other words, many will not be able to hear the Word of God (obviously because Two Witnesses testimony is finished). And there are spiritual pestilences (sickness) where they no longer find Christ for healing (salvation). The earthquakes is the shaking of Church foundation as she loses her kingdom representative for God just like Israel had. See, all of this will take place AFTER the testimony of Two Witnesses is finish so the second coming of Christ will not take place at this time but after a little season will. That is why the period is called the "great tribulation" FOR the elect during that time.

As for "fire from heaven," it is not literal event as I will explain some other time. Remind me if you are interested to know about it since its 3am in the morning so I need to go bed.

 

[Lambano]

Romans 9-11 should be read as a single unit. But for the thread at hand, I want to focus on these verses which summarize Paul's analysis of the problem:

28 In relation to the gospel they are enemies on your account, but in relation to God’s choice they are beloved on account of the fathers; 29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. (Romans 11:28-29)​

​

so...

​

18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. (Romans 11:18)​

 

[Lambano]

I don't think it's gonna go well for the Christian Identity thieves on Judgment Day trying to steal Israel's identity.

And yet we who are Jesus's people ARE God's people.

 

[Jack]

And yet we who are Jesus's people ARE God's people.

True indeed, but we are not Israel. Israel is Israel, the Land of the Bible.

 

[Lambano]

True indeed, but we are not Israel. Israel is Israel, the Land of the Bible.

And yet Paul refers to Christians as the 'Israel of God'.

15 For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation. 16 And all who will follow this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God. (Galatians 6:15-16)​

It is significant to note that "Israel" may mean in Hebrew, "God's Prince"; see Genesis 32:28 KJV:

And he said, "Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed." (Genesis 32:28)​

Though "He rassles with God" might be a better translation from the Hebrew. Anyway, this is what the Biblical understanding of "election" is: Being God's people.

 

[Lambano]

How odd
Of God
To choose
The Jews.
Yet odder still
Are those who choose
A Jewish God
But spurn the Jews.

 

[Timtofly]

No old place is re-used in the analogy and even in real world grafting you don't remove a branch that was weak, dead or producing no fruit or bad fruit and attach a new branch at that same spot. Grafting is always a new place on a tree that didn't use to have a bad branch.

No one is saying replacement is based on Paul's analogy.

Replacement is saying the church is now Israel and there will not be a future Israel to govern the nations during the Day of the Lord.

 

[Timtofly]

And yet Paul refers to Christians as the 'Israel of God'.

15 For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation. 16 And all who will follow this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God. (Galatians 6:15-16)​

It is significant to note that "Israel" may mean in Hebrew, "God's Prince"; see Genesis 32:28 KJV:

And he said, "Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed." (Genesis 32:28)​

Though "He rassles with God" might be a better translation from the Hebrew. Anyway, this is what the Biblical understanding of "election" is: Being God's people.

The word "and" is not the word "as".

The word "and" points to two different groups. The church and the Israel of God.

 

[Zao is life]

I don't think it's gonna go well for the Christian Identity thieves on Judgment Day trying to steal Israel's identity.

Then you should be shuddering.

(Because you are one of the identity thieves).

 

[Zao is life]

Removing people and adding new people doesn't equal replacement especially since a removed branch can be RETURNED TO IT'S PREVIOUS PLACE if they turn to Christ. That alone proves no one took that branches place since the place is saved for them in case they are no longer in unbelief. The tree has plenty of new places. No old place is re-used in the analogy and even in real world grafting you don't remove a branch that was weak, dead or producing no fruit or bad fruit and attach a new branch at that same spot. Grafting is always a new place on a tree that didn't use to have a bad branch. So, replacement is not true as far as what Paul wrote about nor is it true in literal branch grafting, exactly why Paul uses the analogy.

Yes. Your post above shows once again the reality of the fact that because there was a remnant of natural branches who were not broken off, the Olive tree did not die because branches were broken off, and then get "replaced" by a new tree, and no one who is falsely labelled a "Replacement Theologist" believes that the Olive tree died and got replaced by a new tree - which is what would be necessary for the false label of "Replacement Theology" to have any merit.

But the same Olive tree continued to live because of the remnant of the natural branches who were not broken off.

The root of the Olive tree is God's election of Abraham and his seed, and God's covenant promises to Abraham and his seed. The seed of Abraham is Christ (Galatians 3:16).

There is not, and never has been, a "new" Israel, but those who are Israel do indeed have a new temple, and it's made up of the living stones who are in Christ.

"Jewish" branches (or the natural branches) of the Olive tree who do not continue in unbelief are grafted into their own olive-tree for God is able to graft them in again (Romans 11:23-24).

Paul did not say that Gentiles who believe are grafted into their own Olive tree again. He said merely that we have been grafted in - which is more proof that the Olive tree did not die and get replaced by a "new" tree, i.e there is no "new" Israel that "replaced" Israel. But Israel does indeed have a new temple.​

 

[Zao is life]

True indeed, but we are not Israel. Israel is Israel, the Land of the Bible.

Israel is made up of people. People in all four corners of the globe. Your Israel is dead because it's land without people.

Israel exists in the land God gave to the descendants of Abraham today, in the form of Jews in Christ.