Philip James
Well-Known Member
Hello Mr E,
Indeed!
You too! Are welcome to come to the wedding Feast of the Lamb of God!
Alma Redemptoris Mater
John 6 and the bread from heaven
- Thread starter Eternally Grateful
- Start date
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Hello Mr E,
Indeed!
You too! Are welcome to come to the wedding Feast of the Lamb of God!
Alma Redemptoris Mater
When children play dress up and pretend, it's kind of cute. When adults do the same thing, we call it mental illness.
Philip James
Well-Known Member
Illuminator
Well-Known Member
The Gospel is PART of the New Covenant. Jesus never said to eat the Gospel. One an choose to go along with what was not formally contested for 11+ centuries, or follow the innovative traditions of men. It is by supernatural faith to realize the Real Presence Of Jesus in the consecrated Bread and Wine, not by arguing in forums. Anyone can have supernatural faith, but you have to cooperate with God's grace.
Eucharistic Index - The Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist
Introduction to the Eucharist, the Eucharist in Scripture, the Eucharist and Vatican II, Eucharistic Miracles, the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, Perpetual Eucharistic Adoration, and evidence proving that the Early Christians believed in the Real Presence.
www.therealpresence.org
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Ziggy
Well-Known Member
I hear you Illuminator,
But my faith doesn't rest in anything physical in this world. My faith is in the Lord who's presence is felt in my heart and soul through the Holy Spirit.
Everything in this world is only temporal.
I don't want to sound rude, but if you leave the Eucharist in the elements for a length of time, eventually it will get moldy, it will rot, and eventually, disintegrate. That's what happens in the physical world.
What you put in your mouth, goes into your belly, and works it's way to the water treatment plant.
Jesus even mentioned something to that effect.
Another reference to bread...
Mat 15:1
Then came to Jesus scribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem, saying,
Mat 15:2
Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread.
I'm going to pause right here and go back to that last sentence.
Why do thy disciples transgress the "traditions" of the elders ?
This is the very same question the Catholic church asks any who do not follow their "traditions" .
And all I can say is, because they have no spiritual relevance, earthy yes. Spiritual no.
And I' will let Jesus explain why...
Mat 15:10
And he called the multitude, and said unto them, Hear, and understand:
Mat 15:11
Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.
Mat 15:17
Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught?
Mat 15:18
But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
Mat 15:19
For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
Mat 15:20
These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.
Your faith is not in the bread, You faith is not in the cup.
Your faith is in the one that provided both bread and cup.
Remove the bread and cup and your faith remains in the provider, where it should be.
Your faith is not in your prayers, Your faith is in the one that hears them. Whether they be audible so everyone can hear, or internal where the Holy Spirit hears them.
Rom 8:26
Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
Ziggy
Well-Known Member
The Gospel IS the new covenant.
It IS the good news of salvation and redemption and adoption, from this present evil world into a kingdom where there is no sin, no suffering, and acceptance for any who will believe and have faith in the one that made it possible.
In this world there will always be sin, there will always be suffering, and you, if you believe in Jesus, you will always be on the outside.
You will be unaccepted by the world we live in.
You don't see it yet, but it's coming. Even the Catholic church is going to come under great persecution unless and until it's faith in which it's founded has been erased. And everything about it will simply become traditions according to the world.
That's what happened to Israel. They lost faith and they followed the traditions of man rather than the word of God.
They had the same traditions the churches have today. You must do this or you must do that because it's the way it's been done for 2000 years.
And everytime, Israel fell into idolatry. Not idols, not statues, but their belief that they had to earn their way to salvation.
That is not the Grace of God.
God's grace says: I know you are a sinner, and I am willing to overlook that and never bring it into rememberance again.
If you believe in me and Jesus Christ whom I have sent to free you from that sin.
That's it. That is the deal right there.
That is Grace.
It wasn't because Noah built the Ark that he was saved, but that he believed God.
It wasn't because Abraham left his home and went on a journey to find a new land. It was because he believed God.
Did Noah put his faith in the Ark or in God to save him from the flood?
Did Abraham have faith that his elderly wife could bare children, or did he believe God?
The same goes withthe "traditions" of men. They put their faith in the thing (whaterver it is) and they don't trust God to save them.
They believe they have to do something to make them worthy.
Friend, none of us is worthy, no matter what we do.
It is by Jesus' worthiness that we are forgiven, cleaned, and made new.
And I know you will say that you believe all these too.
But your very actions, by the works of your hands, deny you.
Traditions are for beginners. Rules and regulations, laws and teachers are for those who are still learning.
At some point you have to remove the training wheels, let go, and let God.
Only the Holy Spirit can lead you into all truth. Don't put your faith in man.
Hugs
It IS the good news of salvation and redemption and adoption, from this present evil world into a kingdom where there is no sin, no suffering, and acceptance for any who will believe and have faith in the one that made it possible.
In this world there will always be sin, there will always be suffering, and you, if you believe in Jesus, you will always be on the outside.
You will be unaccepted by the world we live in.
You don't see it yet, but it's coming. Even the Catholic church is going to come under great persecution unless and until it's faith in which it's founded has been erased. And everything about it will simply become traditions according to the world.
That's what happened to Israel. They lost faith and they followed the traditions of man rather than the word of God.
They had the same traditions the churches have today. You must do this or you must do that because it's the way it's been done for 2000 years.
And everytime, Israel fell into idolatry. Not idols, not statues, but their belief that they had to earn their way to salvation.
That is not the Grace of God.
God's grace says: I know you are a sinner, and I am willing to overlook that and never bring it into rememberance again.
If you believe in me and Jesus Christ whom I have sent to free you from that sin.
That's it. That is the deal right there.
That is Grace.
It wasn't because Noah built the Ark that he was saved, but that he believed God.
It wasn't because Abraham left his home and went on a journey to find a new land. It was because he believed God.
Did Noah put his faith in the Ark or in God to save him from the flood?
Did Abraham have faith that his elderly wife could bare children, or did he believe God?
The same goes withthe "traditions" of men. They put their faith in the thing (whaterver it is) and they don't trust God to save them.
They believe they have to do something to make them worthy.
Friend, none of us is worthy, no matter what we do.
It is by Jesus' worthiness that we are forgiven, cleaned, and made new.
And I know you will say that you believe all these too.
But your very actions, by the works of your hands, deny you.
Traditions are for beginners. Rules and regulations, laws and teachers are for those who are still learning.
At some point you have to remove the training wheels, let go, and let God.
Only the Holy Spirit can lead you into all truth. Don't put your faith in man.
Hugs
Good morning, (for those in the eastern US)
After spending a great evening with my wife, her son and grandkids, I drove and hour and a half.
As usual when I drive, I was contemplating on things of God. In particular the things said in this thread. And I contemplated the thought that we are unable to take a passage by itself and understand what is being said, we MUST go to other passages to see.
Now while in some areas, I think we do. Especially controversial ones, I do believe, especially in the gospels, that there are passages that are standalone
The examples I tried to use in this thread I believe are some of those passages. I will explain why.
John is a gospel written by the apostle John. It was written to show the love of God. And his true message of salvation.
He starts out in chapter 1 by making a proclamation
But as many have Recieve him, to THEM he gave the power or right to become the children of God, even to those who believe in his name.
A simple message given to those who are reading his letter. A message I believe we will see, that he will come back to over and over to different people in many ways, yet the same message
How do we become children of God?
1. Receive him
How do we receive him
2. Through faith.
What I will do is look at the passages I have shown, and maybe more. And ask these questions.
Who is the message given to
what is the message
does it prove or confirm Johns thesis message here in the very first chapter.. So as not to make it a long post. I will add a post to each part I will discuss..
After spending a great evening with my wife, her son and grandkids, I drove and hour and a half.
As usual when I drive, I was contemplating on things of God. In particular the things said in this thread. And I contemplated the thought that we are unable to take a passage by itself and understand what is being said, we MUST go to other passages to see.
Now while in some areas, I think we do. Especially controversial ones, I do believe, especially in the gospels, that there are passages that are standalone
The examples I tried to use in this thread I believe are some of those passages. I will explain why.
John is a gospel written by the apostle John. It was written to show the love of God. And his true message of salvation.
He starts out in chapter 1 by making a proclamation
But as many have Recieve him, to THEM he gave the power or right to become the children of God, even to those who believe in his name.
A simple message given to those who are reading his letter. A message I believe we will see, that he will come back to over and over to different people in many ways, yet the same message
How do we become children of God?
1. Receive him
How do we receive him
2. Through faith.
What I will do is look at the passages I have shown, and maybe more. And ask these questions.
Who is the message given to
what is the message
does it prove or confirm Johns thesis message here in the very first chapter.. So as not to make it a long post. I will add a post to each part I will discuss..
VictoryinJesus
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I love this! It makes me think of in need of milk, or ready for the meat. Jesus Christ told his disciples that He had more to tell them but they …still needed training wheels?…not (yet)ready to travel without the training wheels? “For you could not bear it yet” but “the time will come when…” . paul spoke too of “training wheels” in needing to feed them milk as babes in Christ to prepare them for meat. I have yet to speak unto you as (spiritual) without the training wheels, but as one (yet carnal) in need of the training wheels. Your example gives a great visual (Imo) of when it’s time to “remove” the training wheels…is it a time that comes all at once on “all” at the same time, or a time that comes on each individual? A time when the training wheels are no longer needed? Who decides when the training wheels should come off?
Galatians 3:24-29 seems to speak of “training wheels” Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. [25] But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. [26] For you are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. [27] For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. [28] There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. [29] And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Galatians 4:1-2 Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differs nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all; [2] But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father.
Yet I think of all the grandkids as they learned to ride for the first time without the training wheels…they shake and tremble, uncertain, wobbling and full of questioning doubt…begging for the training wheels to be put back on. But once they connect with … oh this is steady and balanced, they light up and no longer beg for the training wheels. What adventures lay ahead once the training wheels come off, and they are able to go where they couldn’t go before with the restrictions.
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We will start in John 3.
Who is the message to in John 3? Nicodemus
what is the message.
1. If you want to enter the kingdom, you must be born again (made a child of God)
Jesus answers a few questions Nicodemus had. Because as was his Habit Jesus used some odd terms when he would try to explain something (later, when he did these things in longer stories he called parables, He would reveal that the reason he did this was to separate those who believed from those who did not believe)
Matt 13: 11 He answered and said to them, “Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given.
So we have here the first Hotly debated words of Christ in this series. Ye must be born of water and spirit. This is what being born again means, Its amazing that Jesus put this in here, knowing the controversy it would make through the years.. And in my view. It keeps people from hearing the true message, which is Christ’s answer. On HOW to be born again
so what was jesus answer on HOW. As this is the most important part of this passage..
Nicodemus asks..How can these things be?
9 Nicodemus answered and said to Him, “How can these things be?”
And jesus gives him an answer. Surprisingly. And answer he told him he should have already known
10 Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things?
Which is amazing when you think about it. Paul said prety much the same thing to Timothy, when he said you have known how to be saved as a child which means by the OT alone he already know how to be saved.
Jesus said the same thing when he later said if you heard the law and prophets you would believe me, because they spoke of me.. This was no secret. The people of God should have known this truth. Nicodemus, A Pharisee, A teacher of the law, should have been teaching his subjects,
Jesus goes on,
11 Most assuredly, I say to you, We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness. 12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.
It is hotly debated I believe what he means here about earthly and heavenly thing, so I do not want to get into it. The most important part is what Jesus says next. What he says is his instructions on HOW to be born again
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness,
We have to stop here. What is jesus refering to. Nicodemus would have known, being a teacher of the law. He would have recognized this immediately. Jesus is giving him a picture of a symbol in the OT that represents an truth in the NT.
The children of Israel came under attack by serpents. They were getting bitten and killed. So they cried out to Moses, Moses cried out to God. And God told him to put a serpent on a pole. Whoever looked at that pole would not be condemned to death, they would be saved, whoever did not look at that pole would be condemned already, because the poison in them would kill them.. so they died
This is a GREAT picture of the salvation Jesus is going to speak about. Only in this story. JESUS is the one who hangs on a POLE. Nicodemus and every one of us are the ones who are condemned because we have the poison of sin in us, and unless we are saved, we will suffer death
14. even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
Here is the answer
1. God sent his son, who although Nicodemus did not know it yet. Would be hung on a cross
2. That cross is the answer of Gods salvation.
3. Whoever looks to the cross. Will be saved, they will NEVER DIE. And they will LIVE FOREVER (eternal life)
4. Just to make it clear how important this is. He not only says it once, he says it twice.. (he who has ears let him hear comes to mind)
He finishes of with this
18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
He says here there are 2 states, the condemned, and the non condemned.
The non condemned, the saved, are those who believe
those condemned already (those who will die because of the poison of sin) are those who do not believe, and refused to look at the cross.
to finish up this story.
1. Nicodemus is the audience
2. The command is one has not be born again.
(This fits the chapter 1 narrative, of being given the power to become children of God, born again)
3. The way is to look to jesus on the cross (to recieve him as said in John 1)
and it is through faith that this is done. (if you do not believe, you will not look in faith and will suffer death like the children of Israel who in lack of faith refused t look at the serpent)
so we not only have the words in John 1 confirmed. We have a stand alone gospel message, given to a Lost sinner. On what must be done (be born again, given the power to become Gods child) and how we Recieve this power (through faith)
Who is the message to in John 3? Nicodemus
what is the message.
1. If you want to enter the kingdom, you must be born again (made a child of God)
Jesus answers a few questions Nicodemus had. Because as was his Habit Jesus used some odd terms when he would try to explain something (later, when he did these things in longer stories he called parables, He would reveal that the reason he did this was to separate those who believed from those who did not believe)
Matt 13: 11 He answered and said to them, “Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given.
So we have here the first Hotly debated words of Christ in this series. Ye must be born of water and spirit. This is what being born again means, Its amazing that Jesus put this in here, knowing the controversy it would make through the years.. And in my view. It keeps people from hearing the true message, which is Christ’s answer. On HOW to be born again
so what was jesus answer on HOW. As this is the most important part of this passage..
Nicodemus asks..How can these things be?
9 Nicodemus answered and said to Him, “How can these things be?”
And jesus gives him an answer. Surprisingly. And answer he told him he should have already known
10 Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things?
Which is amazing when you think about it. Paul said prety much the same thing to Timothy, when he said you have known how to be saved as a child which means by the OT alone he already know how to be saved.
Jesus said the same thing when he later said if you heard the law and prophets you would believe me, because they spoke of me.. This was no secret. The people of God should have known this truth. Nicodemus, A Pharisee, A teacher of the law, should have been teaching his subjects,
Jesus goes on,
11 Most assuredly, I say to you, We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness. 12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.
It is hotly debated I believe what he means here about earthly and heavenly thing, so I do not want to get into it. The most important part is what Jesus says next. What he says is his instructions on HOW to be born again
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness,
We have to stop here. What is jesus refering to. Nicodemus would have known, being a teacher of the law. He would have recognized this immediately. Jesus is giving him a picture of a symbol in the OT that represents an truth in the NT.
The children of Israel came under attack by serpents. They were getting bitten and killed. So they cried out to Moses, Moses cried out to God. And God told him to put a serpent on a pole. Whoever looked at that pole would not be condemned to death, they would be saved, whoever did not look at that pole would be condemned already, because the poison in them would kill them.. so they died
This is a GREAT picture of the salvation Jesus is going to speak about. Only in this story. JESUS is the one who hangs on a POLE. Nicodemus and every one of us are the ones who are condemned because we have the poison of sin in us, and unless we are saved, we will suffer death
14. even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
Here is the answer
1. God sent his son, who although Nicodemus did not know it yet. Would be hung on a cross
2. That cross is the answer of Gods salvation.
3. Whoever looks to the cross. Will be saved, they will NEVER DIE. And they will LIVE FOREVER (eternal life)
4. Just to make it clear how important this is. He not only says it once, he says it twice.. (he who has ears let him hear comes to mind)
He finishes of with this
18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
He says here there are 2 states, the condemned, and the non condemned.
The non condemned, the saved, are those who believe
those condemned already (those who will die because of the poison of sin) are those who do not believe, and refused to look at the cross.
to finish up this story.
1. Nicodemus is the audience
2. The command is one has not be born again.
(This fits the chapter 1 narrative, of being given the power to become children of God, born again)
3. The way is to look to jesus on the cross (to recieve him as said in John 1)
and it is through faith that this is done. (if you do not believe, you will not look in faith and will suffer death like the children of Israel who in lack of faith refused t look at the serpent)
so we not only have the words in John 1 confirmed. We have a stand alone gospel message, given to a Lost sinner. On what must be done (be born again, given the power to become Gods child) and how we Recieve this power (through faith)
The next story I will look at is in the same chapter. Only this time, it is spoken by John the baptist. Yet the message is the same.
John is speaking to a group of people who were in a dispute over purification and another person who was baptizing (Jesus) although we are told Jesus never baptized anyone)
25 Then there arose a dispute between some of John’s disciples and the Jews about purification. 26 And they came to John and said to him, “Rabbi, He who was with you beyond the Jordan, to whom you have testified—behold, He is baptizing, and all are coming to Him!”
John points to Christ. And he gives the message of true purification. It is not the baptism he is offering or the baptism christ is offering. Yet what is it?
34 For He whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God does not give the Spirit by measure. 35 The Father loves the Son, and has given all things into His hand. 36 He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”
Amazing here number one is that John was not in that upper room with Jesus and nicodemus, Yet John speaks the same words. Is this coincidence? I think not.. Does it meet the John 1 thesis?
He speaks of eternal life. We learned by Jesus words. This eternal life is given to those who are born again, yet that is not really important here. But it matches john 1.
How do we recieve this eternal life? By believing in him.
so again, we recieve him, through faith
this fits perfectly with John 1. It also agrees with What jesus said in John 3. And stands alone, These people who left knew what they had to do to be saved, and if they believed, they would have been saved.
what happened to those who did not believe?
He shall not see life (will not be born again) but the wrath of God abides in him (he is condemned)
This agrees completely with John 3. And here we have 2 distinct and seperate examples of the gospel given to 2 distinct and seperate people all with the same message, and both of these messages agree with What John said in chapter one
1. Receive him
2. Through faith
3. You will be given the power to become a child of God (born again)
John is speaking to a group of people who were in a dispute over purification and another person who was baptizing (Jesus) although we are told Jesus never baptized anyone)
25 Then there arose a dispute between some of John’s disciples and the Jews about purification. 26 And they came to John and said to him, “Rabbi, He who was with you beyond the Jordan, to whom you have testified—behold, He is baptizing, and all are coming to Him!”
John points to Christ. And he gives the message of true purification. It is not the baptism he is offering or the baptism christ is offering. Yet what is it?
34 For He whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God does not give the Spirit by measure. 35 The Father loves the Son, and has given all things into His hand. 36 He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”
Amazing here number one is that John was not in that upper room with Jesus and nicodemus, Yet John speaks the same words. Is this coincidence? I think not.. Does it meet the John 1 thesis?
He speaks of eternal life. We learned by Jesus words. This eternal life is given to those who are born again, yet that is not really important here. But it matches john 1.
How do we recieve this eternal life? By believing in him.
so again, we recieve him, through faith
this fits perfectly with John 1. It also agrees with What jesus said in John 3. And stands alone, These people who left knew what they had to do to be saved, and if they believed, they would have been saved.
what happened to those who did not believe?
He shall not see life (will not be born again) but the wrath of God abides in him (he is condemned)
This agrees completely with John 3. And here we have 2 distinct and seperate examples of the gospel given to 2 distinct and seperate people all with the same message, and both of these messages agree with What John said in chapter one
1. Receive him
2. Through faith
3. You will be given the power to become a child of God (born again)
The next story will be in John 4. The people included are the Samaritan’s. Namely a Samaritan lady he met at a well, but many Samaritan’s wil be saved by this message.
10 Jesus answered and said to her, “If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, ‘Give Me a drink,’ you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water.”
Here, as in his message to Nicodemus, Jesus is pointing to himself. In john 3 he was the son of man who came down from heaven, In this conversation, as we will see, He is the Messiah
Here again, as in John 3, Jesus is going to use a physical thing that his audience can understand to explain a spiritual truth. Water. Everyone knows water sustains life. Without water, you will die.
He asks the woman for a drink. Which surprises here, one she is shamed, and 2 she is a woman, and worse yet, she is the hated Samaritan.
11 The woman said to Him, “Sir, You have nothing to draw with, and the well is deep. Where then do You get that living water? 12 Are You greater than our father Jacob, who gave us the well, and drank from it himself, as well as his sons and his livestock?”
Again, Like nicodemus, she basically comes back with the same response (How is these things be, where do you get this water)
13 Jesus answered and said to her, “Whoever drinks of this water will thirst again, 14 butwhoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life.”
To People who have been following this thread, this should sound familiar, Only in this story, he uses living water, instead of bread, flesh and blood.
1. Whoever drinks this physical water will thirst again. It does not endure forever.
2. Whoever asks and recieved the water I will give him will become a fountain of water springing up to eternal life (This water endures forever, whoever drinks it will NEVER THIRST)
We know by following the story, jesus convinces her he is the messiah, she goes tells her people. And many come out. And we know many believed..
42 Then they said to the woman, “Now we believe, not because of what you said, for we ourselves have heard Him and we know that this is indeed the Christ, the Savior of the world.”
Again, People who have studied John 6 should recognize this. As peter aid, so to these people proclaim, Jesus is the christ, the savior of the world.
So here we have the GOSPEL message given to a particular people (Sameritans) but can it stand alone?
1. It was given to a group of different people than the first two messages.
2. The message was the same, Come to me, Receive me (as for this living water)
3. The message on how we Receive it is also the same, Believe.
4. The result is the same, eternal life. You have become children of God based on your faith
They Received him, they were given the power to become Gods children, and they did it through faith
these people left with the complete knowledge of how to be saved It is a stand alone message, they do not need to go anyplace else. However. If they do,. They will find other stories and other massages which say the same thing, and Confirm that what they believed is true..
10 Jesus answered and said to her, “If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, ‘Give Me a drink,’ you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water.”
Here, as in his message to Nicodemus, Jesus is pointing to himself. In john 3 he was the son of man who came down from heaven, In this conversation, as we will see, He is the Messiah
Here again, as in John 3, Jesus is going to use a physical thing that his audience can understand to explain a spiritual truth. Water. Everyone knows water sustains life. Without water, you will die.
He asks the woman for a drink. Which surprises here, one she is shamed, and 2 she is a woman, and worse yet, she is the hated Samaritan.
11 The woman said to Him, “Sir, You have nothing to draw with, and the well is deep. Where then do You get that living water? 12 Are You greater than our father Jacob, who gave us the well, and drank from it himself, as well as his sons and his livestock?”
Again, Like nicodemus, she basically comes back with the same response (How is these things be, where do you get this water)
13 Jesus answered and said to her, “Whoever drinks of this water will thirst again, 14 butwhoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life.”
To People who have been following this thread, this should sound familiar, Only in this story, he uses living water, instead of bread, flesh and blood.
1. Whoever drinks this physical water will thirst again. It does not endure forever.
2. Whoever asks and recieved the water I will give him will become a fountain of water springing up to eternal life (This water endures forever, whoever drinks it will NEVER THIRST)
We know by following the story, jesus convinces her he is the messiah, she goes tells her people. And many come out. And we know many believed..
42 Then they said to the woman, “Now we believe, not because of what you said, for we ourselves have heard Him and we know that this is indeed the Christ, the Savior of the world.”
Again, People who have studied John 6 should recognize this. As peter aid, so to these people proclaim, Jesus is the christ, the savior of the world.
So here we have the GOSPEL message given to a particular people (Sameritans) but can it stand alone?
1. It was given to a group of different people than the first two messages.
2. The message was the same, Come to me, Receive me (as for this living water)
3. The message on how we Receive it is also the same, Believe.
4. The result is the same, eternal life. You have become children of God based on your faith
They Received him, they were given the power to become Gods children, and they did it through faith
these people left with the complete knowledge of how to be saved It is a stand alone message, they do not need to go anyplace else. However. If they do,. They will find other stories and other massages which say the same thing, and Confirm that what they believed is true..
I like that as well-- the 'traditions are for beginners' idea and it's a nice way of saying something apparent and clear when you think of it in terms like you mention- that of a 3-year-old child with training wheels on their bike and a parent (priest) hovering over them as they learn. But could you say the same of a 13-year-old who still has her training wheels on her bike. Would that not be a little sad? How about a thirty-year-old? Sad becomes pathetic and you realize that these are no longer training wheels, but restraining wheels used to keep 'the kid' from learning to ride off on their own. They are being held back, kept on track and in their lane by a system that demands they follow these traditions and never venture beyond.
The next story will be john 5.
Jesus had just healed a man on the sabbath, and he was confronted by a DIFFERENT group of people. And gave them a message,, Was this message the same?
First two things happen in this conversation and series of events..
1. Jesus, according to jews, broke the sabbath
2. Jesus claimed to be God
18 Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.
So Jesus gave a message, not only to those who were wanting to kill him, but to everyone who was there
He first goes on to show again how the father has given the son authority To judge, but he has also given the authority to save (as proven by his healing miracles) and that there will come a time when the dead will not only arise, but judgment will come. (Same message in John 3, He did not come to judge but to Save)
he then once again gives the gospel message
24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.
Is this the same message?
1. He who hears and believes. What is this? It is receiving him, it is coming to him.
2. Again, this is received BY FAITH
3. Those who do will have eternal life, they will NEVER DIE.
4. He adds another word to it, they will not come to judgment
5. They have passed from death to life (they are born again)
once again, we see the same gospel message given to a different group of people
once again we see what John said in John 1 confirmed
But as many as Recieved him (hear his words and believe) to them he gave the right to become children of God (Passed from death to life) even to them who believe (through faith)
again, these people at this conversation were given the gospel message, if they left as believers, they received this eternal life, and new birth Christ promised them, they do not need to go to any other passage, HOWEVER, if they do, they will find many passages that confirm this same truth (I have now shown you 4 different passages that confirm this same message, and confirms the thesis in John 1)
Jesus had just healed a man on the sabbath, and he was confronted by a DIFFERENT group of people. And gave them a message,, Was this message the same?
First two things happen in this conversation and series of events..
1. Jesus, according to jews, broke the sabbath
2. Jesus claimed to be God
18 Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.
So Jesus gave a message, not only to those who were wanting to kill him, but to everyone who was there
He first goes on to show again how the father has given the son authority To judge, but he has also given the authority to save (as proven by his healing miracles) and that there will come a time when the dead will not only arise, but judgment will come. (Same message in John 3, He did not come to judge but to Save)
he then once again gives the gospel message
24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.
Is this the same message?
1. He who hears and believes. What is this? It is receiving him, it is coming to him.
2. Again, this is received BY FAITH
3. Those who do will have eternal life, they will NEVER DIE.
4. He adds another word to it, they will not come to judgment
5. They have passed from death to life (they are born again)
once again, we see the same gospel message given to a different group of people
once again we see what John said in John 1 confirmed
But as many as Recieved him (hear his words and believe) to them he gave the right to become children of God (Passed from death to life) even to them who believe (through faith)
again, these people at this conversation were given the gospel message, if they left as believers, they received this eternal life, and new birth Christ promised them, they do not need to go to any other passage, HOWEVER, if they do, they will find many passages that confirm this same truth (I have now shown you 4 different passages that confirm this same message, and confirms the thesis in John 1)
VictoryinJesus
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Now I have the visual of a whole parade of women and men peddling bikes with training wheels past my house…
You said “Sad becomes pathetic and you realize that these are no longer training wheels, but restraining wheels used to keep 'the kid' from learning to ride off on their own.”
Love that too “and you realize that these are no longer training wheels, but restraining wheels” makes me think of when him who restrains be taken out of the way.
As common an idea as this is, it is not a known fact. In fact, we don't know for sure who wrote any of the gospels. Since you are focusing on traditions, it's only fair to mention that it is a traditionally held opinion to attribute the four gospels to Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John-- without knowing for sure. Is it possible? Sure. Could it be some other Matthew, and not the tax collector disciple? Sure. Could Mark have been written by the disciple named John, who was called Mark? Sure. Could there have been more than one John? For certain. Just as there was more than one James and even Jesus. (Joshua). The gospel of John is distinctly different than the three other gospels called synoptic (seen together) accounts.
There are highly regarded scholars who have posited that the gospel of John was recorded by someone named John, but the one the gospel calls the beloved disciple was actually none other than Mary Magdelene, and this gospel is her account of recollections and musings about Jesus and his life. The point is, it's not settled and it doesn't matter.
I look forward to your posts and conclusions. Don't be so hasty about the latter.
I will not come to our passage in question This is a much larger passage. And we have already gone through it. So I will highlight the message Jesus gave to another group of people to keep it short.
1. He had just fed 5000 people (actually closer to 10 - 15 thousand) a great miracle.
2. They came to him the next day. To follow him. (This should have been a great things Because they saw something in christ and wanted to hear more)
3. However, like all the disputes e have seen in the previous passages. There is something wrong. To once again, give the gospel message to yet a different group of people
first thing he does is call them out.. He knows their hearts and many here do not believe. So he will use that to explain a message.
don’t work for food which perishes, but for food which endures to eternal life.
again, to those who have been following me, this should sound familiar. Jesus said basically the same thing in John 4 to the lady at the well. He repeats this multiple times in this conversation.
48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead.50 This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that one may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever;
58 This is the bread which came down from heaven—not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever.”
Think water, whoever drinks this water will thirst again, but whoever drinks the water I will give, will receive a fountain of living water flowing to eternal life
Only this time, as in John 3, he says this now three times..
1. Don’t look for food which perishes but food which endures forever
2. Eat this bread you will die. Eat the bread I will give you you will live forever.
Again, a common theme in any document, is if it is repeated multiple times. Pay attention.
Finally, as in all the other passages, he explains what we must do to recieve this living bread.
35 And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst.
40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”
47 Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life.
Here we have 3 different point in which jesus tries to get his message to hit home. So they maybe believe
How do we eat this food which endures forever. This LIVING BREAD Jesus came to offer
1. Come to him (Receive him)
2. Believe
3. Look to the son so you can see him (same message he gave nicodemus, when he said as Moses lifted the serpent so to must the son of man be lifted up. We must come to home and see him)
At this point, we have enough that we have the gospel message that is not only complete. But does it fit the test of the rest of the messages to the other people jesus gave the gospel too
But as any as have Received him (come to him, see him)
will be given the power too become children of God (born again , pass from death to life. Receive eternal life, will never perish, will never thirst and will never hunger
as in all the other passages and gospel messages, we have the same story.. In fact here we have the 5th time Jesus gave the gospel message to a group of people and these people. If they believed, would be given everything Jesus promised them, they would never perish and have eternal life.. nor would they hunger or thirst.. as this food, living water endures forever.
Sadly, the people continued to argue. So jesus did what he again did many time, and spoke in something that would separate the true believers from the non believers. Just like he did in John 3, he made a statement that from that time forward will cause divisions, and arguments, that again, people will use to focus on this, and not the message he already gave,, He is about to seperate the wheat from the chaff.
53 Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day
Just as In John 3 and john 4. Jesus is using a physical item (his flesh and blood) to represent a spiritual truth, however, this time, it is controversial. And those who have never believed him, this will push them over the edge and they will leave.
Jesus also added another GIFT that those who receive will Recieve. He will resurrect them on the last day (as apposed to having them delivered to hi for judgment
see Rev 20 - 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
This is the final destination for those who refused to look to the cross. Just like those who refused to look at the serpent on the pole. Who died. These people will suffer the second death
To set things straight though, Jesus did not leave it here
62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life
We can go all the way Back to John 3 and see Jesus said the same thing to nicodemus
He told nicodemus this
13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven,
In nicodemus, he said the son of man was in heaven, and came down to earth
Here he says he will return to heaven, where he was before.. (amazing how the word comes together. praise God)
and he says what he has repeated several times In the other passages, or insinuated without saying in so many words
1. The living water, the bread from heaven, The means to be born again, the flesh and blood) are the words of God..
2. These words are the words that give life. Anyone who BELIEVES then will be born again, and made a child of God
So we see here another example of how Jesus gave the gospel message to a different group of people. Yet the message did not change, It stands alone. The people who hear this would have enough knowledge to be saved without going any place else in scripture. However. If they went to other places of scripture. They would hear the same message given to other people that confirmed what they heard here
He who believes is not condemned, will not die. Will not be judged, will live forever. And have the food/water that will sustain them for eternity (this does not need they do not need to stop drinking and eating food and water about how a child of God is to live, this water just makes sure that have that ability and the faith to keep on walking even in time of distress and to keep moving forward. Or to run the race as paul called it
He who does not believe is condemned already, They are dead. They will remain dead. The poison of sin which condemns them is working in their body and will overcome them completely, unless they look to the cross. Come to Gods salvation) they will be delivered to God for judgment (not raised by him) and like those who refused to look to the serpent. Will suffer the second death (rev 20)
God’s word is amazing. I can go to other passage in john, I can go to the other three gospels. I can go to pauls epistles. And the book of Acts, I can go to the OT and the NT and I will see the same message over and over which confirms the gospel message.
So I will leave it hear. If anyone would like to look at other passage, I will be glad to.. Gods word is amazing, and it is amazing when we confirm the things we know to be true over and over.
PRAISE GOD!!
1. He had just fed 5000 people (actually closer to 10 - 15 thousand) a great miracle.
2. They came to him the next day. To follow him. (This should have been a great things Because they saw something in christ and wanted to hear more)
3. However, like all the disputes e have seen in the previous passages. There is something wrong. To once again, give the gospel message to yet a different group of people
first thing he does is call them out.. He knows their hearts and many here do not believe. So he will use that to explain a message.
don’t work for food which perishes, but for food which endures to eternal life.
again, to those who have been following me, this should sound familiar. Jesus said basically the same thing in John 4 to the lady at the well. He repeats this multiple times in this conversation.
48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead.50 This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that one may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever;
58 This is the bread which came down from heaven—not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever.”
Think water, whoever drinks this water will thirst again, but whoever drinks the water I will give, will receive a fountain of living water flowing to eternal life
Only this time, as in John 3, he says this now three times..
1. Don’t look for food which perishes but food which endures forever
2. Eat this bread you will die. Eat the bread I will give you you will live forever.
Again, a common theme in any document, is if it is repeated multiple times. Pay attention.
Finally, as in all the other passages, he explains what we must do to recieve this living bread.
35 And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst.
40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”
47 Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life.
Here we have 3 different point in which jesus tries to get his message to hit home. So they maybe believe
How do we eat this food which endures forever. This LIVING BREAD Jesus came to offer
1. Come to him (Receive him)
2. Believe
3. Look to the son so you can see him (same message he gave nicodemus, when he said as Moses lifted the serpent so to must the son of man be lifted up. We must come to home and see him)
At this point, we have enough that we have the gospel message that is not only complete. But does it fit the test of the rest of the messages to the other people jesus gave the gospel too
But as any as have Received him (come to him, see him)
will be given the power too become children of God (born again , pass from death to life. Receive eternal life, will never perish, will never thirst and will never hunger
as in all the other passages and gospel messages, we have the same story.. In fact here we have the 5th time Jesus gave the gospel message to a group of people and these people. If they believed, would be given everything Jesus promised them, they would never perish and have eternal life.. nor would they hunger or thirst.. as this food, living water endures forever.
Sadly, the people continued to argue. So jesus did what he again did many time, and spoke in something that would separate the true believers from the non believers. Just like he did in John 3, he made a statement that from that time forward will cause divisions, and arguments, that again, people will use to focus on this, and not the message he already gave,, He is about to seperate the wheat from the chaff.
53 Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day
Just as In John 3 and john 4. Jesus is using a physical item (his flesh and blood) to represent a spiritual truth, however, this time, it is controversial. And those who have never believed him, this will push them over the edge and they will leave.
Jesus also added another GIFT that those who receive will Recieve. He will resurrect them on the last day (as apposed to having them delivered to hi for judgment
see Rev 20 - 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
This is the final destination for those who refused to look to the cross. Just like those who refused to look at the serpent on the pole. Who died. These people will suffer the second death
To set things straight though, Jesus did not leave it here
62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life
We can go all the way Back to John 3 and see Jesus said the same thing to nicodemus
He told nicodemus this
13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven,
In nicodemus, he said the son of man was in heaven, and came down to earth
Here he says he will return to heaven, where he was before.. (amazing how the word comes together. praise God)
and he says what he has repeated several times In the other passages, or insinuated without saying in so many words
1. The living water, the bread from heaven, The means to be born again, the flesh and blood) are the words of God..
2. These words are the words that give life. Anyone who BELIEVES then will be born again, and made a child of God
So we see here another example of how Jesus gave the gospel message to a different group of people. Yet the message did not change, It stands alone. The people who hear this would have enough knowledge to be saved without going any place else in scripture. However. If they went to other places of scripture. They would hear the same message given to other people that confirmed what they heard here
He who believes is not condemned, will not die. Will not be judged, will live forever. And have the food/water that will sustain them for eternity (this does not need they do not need to stop drinking and eating food and water about how a child of God is to live, this water just makes sure that have that ability and the faith to keep on walking even in time of distress and to keep moving forward. Or to run the race as paul called it
He who does not believe is condemned already, They are dead. They will remain dead. The poison of sin which condemns them is working in their body and will overcome them completely, unless they look to the cross. Come to Gods salvation) they will be delivered to God for judgment (not raised by him) and like those who refused to look to the serpent. Will suffer the second death (rev 20)
God’s word is amazing. I can go to other passage in john, I can go to the other three gospels. I can go to pauls epistles. And the book of Acts, I can go to the OT and the NT and I will see the same message over and over which confirms the gospel message.
So I will leave it hear. If anyone would like to look at other passage, I will be glad to.. Gods word is amazing, and it is amazing when we confirm the things we know to be true over and over.
PRAISE GOD!!
I see I have a lot of pages of responses I need to go through. I wanted to cover what came to my mind last night before I looked at anythign else. I pray we can come to look at these gospel messages Jesus gave to these different people (and eventually through his word, to us) and confirm our faith in his word
Again, I do not want to make this a catholic or protestant bash thread. i just want to look at Gods word. And the gospel message he grace to these different groups and discuss them. I will look at everyone’s posts. But do not promise I will respond to everyones.. Want to keep this thread positive, not negative
Again, I do not want to make this a catholic or protestant bash thread. i just want to look at Gods word. And the gospel message he grace to these different groups and discuss them. I will look at everyone’s posts. But do not promise I will respond to everyones.. Want to keep this thread positive, not negative
I'm curious. Why did you choose to start in John 3 if you are wanting full context? You plucked one single concept out of a myriad presented in John 1, then skipped John 2 entirely, to begin in John 3? Why?
Don't you think there is anything important presented in John 1 or 2? For example-- It's recorded that Jesus was confronted in the temple courts by the Jewish leaders who were demanding some sort of sign from him since he was presenting himself as some sort of prophet-- tipping over the tables and driving out the money lenders and such.... He said destroy this temple and I will rebuild it in three days.
But Jesus was speaking about the temple of his body. So after he was raised from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this, and they believed the scripture and the saying that Jesus had spoken.
And that's key context. Even those who were the very closest to him didn't believe and receive until after he was raised from the dead. This is so important and it's a set up for the conversation to come with Nicodemus regarding what it means to be born again. Not stated, but contextually, being born again, requires the destruction of your temple. You have to first die, to be born again. You won't dig this out of anyone's "traditions" that I know of.
Ziggy
Well-Known Member
I have really been praying about the cup.
And Jesus says... it is his blood. Or it represents his blood in that cup.
The only Gospel connection I can make is the very cup Jesus asked his Father to remove from him 3 times.
If I look in the OT, this cup is filled with the wrath of God.
There was a bit of a discussion going on between James and John mother as to who would be seated at the Lord;s right and left hands.
Jesus says to her:
Mat 20:20
Then came to him the mother of Zebedee's children with her sons, worshipping him, and desiring a certain thing of him.
Mat 20:21
And he said unto her, What wilt thou? She saith unto him, Grant that these my two sons may sit, the one on thy right hand, and the other on the left, in thy kingdom.
Mat 20:22
But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able.
Mat 20:23
And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.
This sounds a bit more ominous than simply drinking water from the well.
Jesus cried:
Luk 22:42
Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.
He did this 3 times. And after the third time:
Luk 22:43
And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him.
Luk 22:44
And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.
I believe that it is this blood, this sweat that Jesus is referring to at supper.
The Apostles are going to have to die for him.
Peter knowing what is going to happen promises that he will die for him.
And Jesus says:
Mat 26:33
Peter answered and said unto him, Though all men shall be offended because of thee, yet will I never be offended.
Mat 26:34
Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, That this night, before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice.
Mat 26:35
Peter said unto him, Though I should die with thee, yet will I not deny thee. Likewise also said all the disciples.
Jesus took Peter, James and John aside, and he said:
Mat 26:38
Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me.
Mat 26:39
And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.
Now I don't want to go too deep here, because sometimes I still need the training wheels.
So I will try to explain this how I am hearing it.
Jesus came to take the sin of the people (his people) upon himself. We say "sin" wrapped up nicely in a three letter word.
But in Ezekiel chapter 23... (23 is one of those numbers in the bible, like the 23rd Psalm)
Chapter 23 in Ezekiel lays out the sins of Jerusalem.
And you can see through the Gospels how Jesus is calling them out while he is walking among them.
It's longer than what I'm going to post. But the whole chapter is relevant to the very sin Jesus was going to take upon himself for the sake of his children...
Eze 23:28
For thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will deliver thee into the hand of them whom thou hatest, into the hand of them from whom thy mind is alienated:
Eze 23:29
And they shall deal with thee hatefully, and shall take away all thy labour, and shall leave thee naked and bare: and the nakedness of thy whoredoms shall be discovered, both thy lewdness and thy whoredoms.
Eze 23:30
I will do these things unto thee, because thou hast gone a whoring after the heathen, and because thou art polluted with their idols.
Eze 23:31
Thou hast walked in the way of thy sister; therefore will I give her cup into thine hand.
Eze 23:32
Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou shalt drink of thy sister's cup deep and large: thou shalt be laughed to scorn and had in derision; it containeth much.
Eze 23:33
Thou shalt be filled with drunkenness and sorrow, with the cup of astonishment and desolation, with the cup of thy sister Samaria.
All the sins that had been committed from the day they were taken from Egypt, until the day Jesus came, were put on him.
Isa 53:5
But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
I believe that it is this very cup of sorrow that was distributed among the disciples that night. The same night his body broke sweat in what appeared as great droplets of blood.
Luk 22:14
And when the hour was come, he sat down, and the twelve apostles with him.
Luk 22:15
And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer:
Luk 22:16
For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God.
Luk 22:17
And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves:
Luk 22:18
For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come.
Luk 22:19
And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.
Luk 22:20
Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.
Luk 22:21
But, behold, the hand of him that betrayeth me is with me on the table.
Luk 22:22
And truly the Son of man goeth, as it was determined: but woe unto that man by whom he is betrayed!
The deeper you go, the more you hear...
The easier the balancing becomes, the less you need the training wheels.
But somethings take a lot of prayer.
continued:
And Jesus says... it is his blood. Or it represents his blood in that cup.
The only Gospel connection I can make is the very cup Jesus asked his Father to remove from him 3 times.
If I look in the OT, this cup is filled with the wrath of God.
There was a bit of a discussion going on between James and John mother as to who would be seated at the Lord;s right and left hands.
Jesus says to her:
Mat 20:20
Then came to him the mother of Zebedee's children with her sons, worshipping him, and desiring a certain thing of him.
Mat 20:21
And he said unto her, What wilt thou? She saith unto him, Grant that these my two sons may sit, the one on thy right hand, and the other on the left, in thy kingdom.
Mat 20:22
But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able.
Mat 20:23
And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.
This sounds a bit more ominous than simply drinking water from the well.
Jesus cried:
Luk 22:42
Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.
He did this 3 times. And after the third time:
Luk 22:43
And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him.
Luk 22:44
And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.
I believe that it is this blood, this sweat that Jesus is referring to at supper.
The Apostles are going to have to die for him.
Peter knowing what is going to happen promises that he will die for him.
And Jesus says:
Mat 26:33
Peter answered and said unto him, Though all men shall be offended because of thee, yet will I never be offended.
Mat 26:34
Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, That this night, before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice.
Mat 26:35
Peter said unto him, Though I should die with thee, yet will I not deny thee. Likewise also said all the disciples.
Jesus took Peter, James and John aside, and he said:
Mat 26:38
Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me.
Mat 26:39
And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.
Now I don't want to go too deep here, because sometimes I still need the training wheels.
So I will try to explain this how I am hearing it.
Jesus came to take the sin of the people (his people) upon himself. We say "sin" wrapped up nicely in a three letter word.
But in Ezekiel chapter 23... (23 is one of those numbers in the bible, like the 23rd Psalm)
Chapter 23 in Ezekiel lays out the sins of Jerusalem.
And you can see through the Gospels how Jesus is calling them out while he is walking among them.
It's longer than what I'm going to post. But the whole chapter is relevant to the very sin Jesus was going to take upon himself for the sake of his children...
Eze 23:28
For thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will deliver thee into the hand of them whom thou hatest, into the hand of them from whom thy mind is alienated:
Eze 23:29
And they shall deal with thee hatefully, and shall take away all thy labour, and shall leave thee naked and bare: and the nakedness of thy whoredoms shall be discovered, both thy lewdness and thy whoredoms.
Eze 23:30
I will do these things unto thee, because thou hast gone a whoring after the heathen, and because thou art polluted with their idols.
Eze 23:31
Thou hast walked in the way of thy sister; therefore will I give her cup into thine hand.
Eze 23:32
Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou shalt drink of thy sister's cup deep and large: thou shalt be laughed to scorn and had in derision; it containeth much.
Eze 23:33
Thou shalt be filled with drunkenness and sorrow, with the cup of astonishment and desolation, with the cup of thy sister Samaria.
All the sins that had been committed from the day they were taken from Egypt, until the day Jesus came, were put on him.
Isa 53:5
But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
I believe that it is this very cup of sorrow that was distributed among the disciples that night. The same night his body broke sweat in what appeared as great droplets of blood.
Luk 22:14
And when the hour was come, he sat down, and the twelve apostles with him.
Luk 22:15
And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer:
Luk 22:16
For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God.
Luk 22:17
And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves:
Luk 22:18
For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come.
Luk 22:19
And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.
Luk 22:20
Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.
Luk 22:21
But, behold, the hand of him that betrayeth me is with me on the table.
Luk 22:22
And truly the Son of man goeth, as it was determined: but woe unto that man by whom he is betrayed!
The deeper you go, the more you hear...
The easier the balancing becomes, the less you need the training wheels.
But somethings take a lot of prayer.
continued:
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