Does God need man?

[Matthias]

I'm on the same page with you. I just don't think God needs us or the plan He's working on with us. And I don't need to go to work either.

I believe God has a plan and needs man (and other pieces) for it to be implemented and accomplished. You don’t. I don’t see how that puts us on the same page.

Nevertheless, thank you for your input. It has helped me to think through and solidify what I believe, without requiring you to compromise or abandon what you believe.

 

[Peterlag]

I believe God has a plan and needs man (and other pieces) for it to be implemented and accomplished. You don’t. I don’t see how that puts us on the same page.

Nevertheless, thank you for your input. It has helped me to think through and solidify what I believe, without requiring you to compromise or abandon what you believe.

We are on the same page...

It's God who decided to establish a world of free will creatures with whom He would relate to in a give-and-take dialogue. The day Jesus Christ got up from the dead was the day God began to get ready to invite each human being to participate with Him in the overall plan of redemption. This work of God depends on the resource's available in any given situation and the cooperation of us humans. God resourcefully works with human attitudes, values, and character, as He responds by getting involved in this give-and-take of life to accomplish His goal with those who answered the call of Christ Jesus. It's also worth noting that it takes far more self-confidence, more wisdom, more love, and more sensitivity to govern what is personal and free, than it does to govern that which one has absolute control of.

If God is so wise as to be competent and resourceful in dealing with us instead of manipulating all that happens? Then this would not diminish His authority to govern because such authority that reigns unchallenged is not as absolute as the authority that accepts a challenge. Such supreme independent power requires tremendous wisdom, patience, love, faithfulness, and resourcefulness to work with a world of independent creatures. This kind of a relationship is not one of domination or manipulation, but of participation and cooperation wherein we become co-laborers with God. It did not have to be this way. It's so only because God wanted a reciprocal relationship of love and elected to make us an important element in such a relationship.

Those who lived at the time of the first century (when the New Testament Scriptures were first starting to be spoken) prayed boldly because they believed their prayers could change things and that means even God’s mind. They understood they were working with God to determine the future because God has open routes into the future and He desires we participate with Him in determining which ones to take. And so it can be said we open a window of opportunity for new possibilities for God to carry out His goal when we turn to Him in prayer. And since prayer affects both parties and changes the situation making it different from what it was prior to the prayer. Then asking in faith may make it possible for God to do something that He could not have done without our asking.

 

[Matthias]

We are on the same page...

It's God who decided to establish a world of free will creatures with whom He would relate to in a give-and-take dialogue. The day Jesus Christ got up from the dead was the day God began to get ready to invite each human being to participate with Him in the overall plan of redemption. This work of God depends on the resource's available in any given situation and the cooperation of us humans. God resourcefully works with human attitudes, values, and character, as He responds by getting involved in this give-and-take of life to accomplish His goal with those who answered the call of Christ Jesus. It's also worth noting that it takes far more self-confidence, more wisdom, more love, and more sensitivity to govern what is personal and free, than it does to govern that which one has absolute control of.

If God is so wise as to be competent and resourceful in dealing with us instead of manipulating all that happens? Then this would not diminish His authority to govern because such authority that reigns unchallenged is not as absolute as the authority that accepts a challenge. Such supreme independent power requires tremendous wisdom, patience, love, faithfulness, and resourcefulness to work with a world of independent creatures. This kind of a relationship is not one of domination or manipulation, but of participation and cooperation wherein we become co-laborers with God. It did not have to be this way. It's so only because God wanted a reciprocal relationship of love and elected to make us an important element in such a relationship.

Those who lived at the time of the first century (when the New Testament Scriptures were first starting to be spoken) prayed boldly because they believed their prayers could change things and that means even God’s mind. They understood they were working with God to determine the future because God has open routes into the future and He desires we participate with Him in determining which ones to take. And so it can be said we open a window of opportunity for new possibilities for God to carry out His goal when we turn to Him in prayer. And since prayer affects both parties and changes the situation making it different from what it was prior to the prayer. Then asking in faith may make it possible for God to do something that He could not have done without our asking.

If we’re in agreement that God needs man, in whatever small degree, then we’re substantially on the same page.

You will have moved (as I have) from an adamant no to a qualified yes.

 

[Peterlag]

If we’re in agreement that God needs man, in whatever small degree, then we’re substantially on the same page.

You will have moved (as I have) from an adamant no to a qualified yes.

Like I said, we are on the same page as long as we stay in the same box. Where we are not seeing eye to eye is when I leave the box and say God did not have to do it this way. We must assume when He did decide to do it this way that He must have said no to other possibilities.

 

[Peterlag]

God does not Need man.
God Wants man who Wants God.

Glory to God,
Taken

I would like to know more about the new nature that God gave us. What forum can I ask about this? Where are the smart people on this site? The verse in question is from 2 Corinthians 5:17 NIV...

Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here!

 

[Matthias]

No

My answer is a qualified yes. If we’re on the same page, you’ve changed your position since writing this.

Fine if you have. Fine if you haven’t. But if you haven’t, we obviously aren’t on the same page.

 

[Peterlag]

My answer is a qualified yes. If we’re on the same page, you’ve changed your position since writing this.

Fine if you have. Fine if you haven’t. But if you haven’t, we obviously aren’t on the same page.

We are on the same page if I stay in the same box with you. And I did not change anything. Football is played by all these rules as long as you are in the game. But none of those rules apply if you are outside of the rules. God is literally outside of His creation. He only needs us if He's in our box.

 

[Matthias]

We are on the same page if I stay in the same box with you. And I did not change anything.

You aren’t in the “same box” with me. I’ve questioned and rejected your logic.

Does God need man?

Me - qualified yes.

You - adamant no.

You’re free to assert that this difference means we’re on the same page.

Football is played by all these rules as long as you are in the game. But none of those rules apply if you are outside of the rules. God is literally outside of His creation. He only needs us if He's in our box.

See above.

 

[Matthias]

“God only needs us if He’s in our box.”

I am filled with God’s spirit. God is inside of me. God is in my box.

God needs me.

 

[Matthias]

I don't know how to get you out of the box.

A presumptuous statement to begin with.

That aside, if we are on the same page - as you have emphatically asserted more than once since writing this - then there is no need for you to get me out of the box.

 

[Matthias]

Thanks.

“God is in need of man for the attainment of His ends.” - Abraham Heschel

Why do you think his assertion isn’t true?

You graciously explained why you believe his assertion isn’t true. You’ve also confirmed that you haven’t since then changed your mind.

I (still) believe Heschel’s assertion is true. You (still) believe Heschel’s assertion is false.

“We’re on the same page” is an illogical conclusion.

 

[Taken]

I would like to know more about the new nature that God gave us.

Rom 8:
[1] There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
[2] For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
[3] For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
[4] That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
[5] For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
[6] For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
[7] Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
[8] So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
[9] But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
[10] And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
[11] But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
[12] Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
[13] For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
[14] For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
[15] For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
[16] The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
[17] And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
[18] For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
[19] For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
[20] For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
[21] Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
[22] For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
[23] And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
[24] For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
[25] But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
[26] Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
[27] And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
[28] And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
[29] For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
[30] Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
[31] What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
[32] He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
[33] Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
[34] Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
[35] Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
[36] As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
[37] Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
[38] For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
[39] Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

What forum can I ask about this?

Scripture.

 

[Matthias]

No God, no plan. No man, no plan.

God exists, man exists, plan exists.

”Your eyes are too pure to look on evil; you cannot tolerate wrongdoing. Why then do you tolerate the treacherous? Why are you silent while the wicked swallow up those more righteous than themselves?”

(Habakkuk 1:13, NIV)

The prophet brings us face to face in his complaint with the problem of evil.

The same God who says he creates evil (Isaiah 45:7), sees and tolerates evil -> for a while, and not without both good and bad consequences for man. What about the consequences for God? Are there any consequences for him?

 

[Peterlag]

God does not Need man.
God Wants man who Wants God.

Glory to God,
Taken

I'm not asking where data is in the Bible. I'm asking where can I post a question concerning this topic on this Forum so that I can discus it with the smart people on here...

I would like to know more about the new nature that God gave us. What forum can I ask about this? Where are the smart people on this site? The verse in question is from 2 Corinthians 5:17 NIV...

Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here!

 

[Taken]

I'm not asking where data is in the Bible. I'm asking where can I post a question concerning this topic on this Forum so that I can discus it with the smart people on here...

I would like to know more about the new nature that God gave us. What forum can I ask about this? Where are the smart people on this site? The verse in question is from 2 Corinthians 5:17 NIV...

Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here!

I would direct you to a moderator, where exactly to post concerning your quest for knowledge about Gods new nature for mankind.
I highly doubt moderators will decide for you who shall answer you according to your measure of “smartness”.

 

[Peterlag]

I would direct you to a moderator, where exactly to post concerning your quest for knowledge about Gods new nature for mankind.
I highly doubt moderators will decide for you who shall answer you according to your measure of “smartness”.

Smartness means those who can work the Word and let it speak for itself and not the new people who give opinions based on how they feel that day.

 

[Matthias]

Does God need man? A trinitarian perspective:

”God doesn’t just desire us; God actually needs us.”

God Needs Us – God In All Things

Religion tends to operate from the perspective of how we need God, but the truth is, God needs us.

godinallthings.com

While I don’t myself hold to trinitarian theology, I find myself able to agree with the logic presented by the trinitarian author.

 

[Peterlag]

Does God need man? A trinitarian perspective:

”God doesn’t just desire us; God actually needs us.”

God Needs Us – God In All Things

Religion tends to operate from the perspective of how we need God, but the truth is, God needs us.

godinallthings.com

While I don’t myself hold to trinitarian theology, I find myself able to agree with the logic presented by the trinitarian author.

I would give you my car if you could show me logic from Scripture that shows a trinity.

 

[Matthias]

I would give you my car if you could show me logic from Scripture that shows a trinity.

I don’t want or need your car, discussion of the Trinity is currently banned on the board and I’m not a trinitarian.

Some trinitarians believe God needs man (the point of that particular post of mine) and some trinitarians don’t. (I think that’s probably already been demonstrated in this thread but it would be a simple matter to locate trinitarian sources which would make the demonstration.)

If you want to defy the ban on discussing the Trinity, please do it in another thread. I don’t want my thread to be closed.

 

[Peterlag]

I don’t want or need your car, discussion of the Trinity is currently banned on the board and I’m not a trinitarian.

Some trinitarians believe God needs man (the point of that particular post of mine) and some trinitarians don’t. (I think that’s probably already been demonstrated in this thread but it would be a simple matter to locate trinitarian sources which would make the demonstration.)

If you want to defy the ban on discussing the Trinity, please do it in another thread. I don’t want my thread to be closed.

Well, I to don't get too deep in discussions with the trinity for the same reason you don't. But I do mention it. But I totally will comply with your request to not be a threat to your post.