God must want man or he wouldn’t have created man to begin with, nor would God provide a way to reconcile man to himself if he didn’t want him.
Q. Does God need man?
Q. Does God need man?
Does God need man?
- Thread starter Matthias
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Hello, Brother.
No.
'He is not served by the hands of men, and He has no need of anything, because He gives every person life and a soul. (Acts 17:25; my emphasis).
Blessings.
Thanks for your feedback. A week ago I would have substantially given the same answer to the question that you have, and used the same NT passage of scripture that you quoted. Today, I would still give the answer you have, but I’m thinking about it. Tomorrow I will probably give the same answer, but maybe not.
”I form light and I create darkness; I make peace and I create evil; I am Yahweh; I do all these things.”
(Isaiah 45:7, LSB)
I’m currently reading a book which is discussing theodicy - “reconciling God and religion in the face of evil.”
(David Birnbaum, God and Evil: A Jewish Perspective, p. 3)
The author reviews a large number of historical responses to ”the problem of evil,” primarily from the varied Jewish perspectives, but also from the perspective of other religious systems of theological thought (e.g. Christianity, with it’s varied thought on the subject down through the centuries, and Eastern religions.) He doesn’t find any of them intellectually satisfying and discusses their strengths and weaknesses. Naturally, he offers another explanation for his readers to consider. In it he draws from Jewish and Christian sources to create a theological formulation “to handle all challenges satisfactorily to be truly viable!” He calls this proposed united theodicy “Quest for Potential“ Core Theology.
It is premised on God’s name (Exodus 3:13-14), free will and the potential of both God and man. He’s cautious about using Jewish Mysticism but he borrows from it - which, fwiw, doesn’t sit well with me.
”For the infinite God of Israel is a God of willed potential.
Holy potential is more than human potential writ large. ‘To whom will you liken Me that I shall equal?’ (Isaiah 40:25, cf. 46:5). Holy potential transcends time, space and the cosmos. … Independent of time, matter, and energy, and indeed, independent of a universe, existed Holy Divine Potential - the primordial Divine.”
(Ibid., pp. 65, 66)
The author notes “The concept of a primordial Divine has clear and direct precedent in the concept of the En Sof of Kabbalah.”
(Ibid., p. 66)
”… where the overwhelming thrust of classic Western philosophy is linear (i.e., A caused B caused C), our formulation is circular, with embedded potentialities providing the crucial supports and linkages.“
(Ibid., pp. 71,72)
So there is the point of departure. I’m personally steeped in classic Western philosophy on this point.
”An already infinite God inexorably seeks His own potentialities, as difficult as this concept may be for the finite to comprehend.”
(Ibid., p. 73.
The concept of man having potential / potentialities is easy to get the mind around. The concept of the same being the case with God is something else altogether. Does it have merit? I think perhaps it does.
The author quotes Abraham Heschel, and that is what lead me to post this thread:
”God is in need of man for the attainment of His ends.”
That seems like a reasonable thought to me.
“Inasmuch as the cosmic Divine potential is intertwined with that of man, one must come to the conclusion that while man is totally dependent on the Divine, God is also somewhat dependent on man, to whatever small degree.”
(David Birnbaum, God and Evil, p. 74)
Must we come to that conclusion?
(David Birnbaum, God and Evil, p. 74)
Must we come to that conclusion?
There's another way of looking at it.
Do you "need" your shadow? Or does your shadow simply exist, because you do-- and when you are examined in the light-- your shadow appears.... a likeness of you.
This is the case also with man. We are made in the image of Him.
Do you "need" your shadow? Or does your shadow simply exist, because you do-- and when you are examined in the light-- your shadow appears.... a likeness of you.
This is the case also with man. We are made in the image of Him.
Building on that -
How does God’s plan for the future work without man? It doesn’t. So, in that very limited sense, God “needs” man (as well as other components of his plan for the future) to achieve (if that’s the right word) what he has set in motion for eternity.
Then how does his plan for the future work without man?
God wants all men to be saved. Not all men will be saved. I think that speaks to the potentiality issue.
What “plan” for the future “without” man?
Agree God Desires for all men to be saved. However all men do not, will not themselves Desire to BECOME Made saved, thus will not Be saved.
God is Just, all will receive what they chose.
Glory to God,
Taken
Agree.
God wanted mankind for His pleasure.
Same as mankind does not “need” children, but “wants” children for their pleasure.
Glory to God,
Taken
Exactly.
Every plan needs it’s pieces in order for the plan to come to fruition.
The argument is a simple one:
1. God has a plan for the age to come.
2. The plan has essential elements. (Man being but one of them.)
3. God needs (and will have) those elements in order for his plan to come to fruition..
Yes.
Maximum potential -> every person in mankind is saved. (That’s not going to happen.)
Less than maximum potential -> not everyone will be saved. (That is going to happen.)
Thanks.
“God is in need of man for the attainment of His ends.” - Abraham Heschel
Why do you think his assertion isn’t true?
Need is something one can not do without.
Want is a Desire to have.
God Needs Nothing.
God Desires To Have His Inheritance…Which IS: Saved, Quickened, Glorified ManKind of Beings.
Glory to God,
His Will Be Done on Earth.
God bless you.
Taken
Because He is supremely wise and endlessly resourceful in seeking to fulfill His goal.
Without the pieces (man, but not only man) he needs to have in order to bring a plan to fruition?
Proposition: Every plan needs it’s pieces in order for the plan to be implemented.
I don't know how to get you out of the box. He could do it a billion different ways.
He couldn’t do it without the pieces to do it with.
He needs the pieces. He creates the pieces.
No....
God is complete in Himself and is not lonely or needing friends or needing anything we got.
He doesn't need our inspiration or creativity.
You got nothing God needs...
And He can call it a day any day...and have all He ever wanted from mankind.
IE, I want a piece of Pecan pie....but that doesn't mean I'm feeling industrious enough to make or buy one this late at night. I don't need a piece of pie....(still full from chicken dinner)
Similar threads
