Does God need man?
- Thread starter Matthias
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The underlying issue:
Why did God create evil? Why does God allow evil? How does evil fit into God attaining his purposes?
Supremely wise and endlessly resourceful means he does not need the pieces. You would need the pieces because you are not supremely wise and endlessly resourceful.
Are you at least able to acknowledge that that’s not logical?
I would need the pieces because pieces are needed to implement any plan I might have in mind.
P.S.
Is a plan without pieces even a plan?
How many times have we heard people say, “God has a plan for your life”?
A plan for your life, without you, the piece?
If it’s true that God has a plan for you then shouldn’t it also be true that God needs you to exist in order to accomplish his purpose for you / your life?
Is it reasonable to think that God has a plan for someone whom he foreknows will never be brought into existence?
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The more I think about it - with the benefit of receiving and entertaining other people’s thoughts on the matter, for which I’m appreciative - the more I think we probably should.
Indeed, only those who obey and do HIS will, are truly HIS sons and daughters. And to the Son, He is not shame to call them, brothers and sisters, even mothers.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
In all of creation we see perfect balance. “For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction”…..we learned this in science class….so how does “evil” fit in with God’s creation?
In Eden, the one “tree” that God forbade access to was “the tree of the knowledge of good and evil”…two opposites. But why would God forbid such knowledge? It wasn’t that the knowledge itself was not useful, but it was the equal opposites that would impact on human creation and even on God’s angelic “sons” if what is practiced is in equal proportion. What was placed in God’s jurisdiction, was the right to decide what was good and what was evil for his children. As we see today and down through history, man’s continued inability to make good decisions, because they are more often than not, selfishly motivated. All the evil practiced in the world, is an abuse of someone’s free will.
Imagine the extreme “good” expressed by the Creator, and then imagine its equal opposite…..exactly what the devil unleashed on humanity to fulfill his own selfish desire to become “like god” to them. He was the first to abuse his free will, and tempted the humans into following his rebellious course in full knowledge of the fact that it would cost them their lives….he didn’t care, as long as he got what ‘he’ wanted.
God chose to keep that knowledge to himself, so that he could give to his children all the “good” he wanted them to experience, and prevent the evil he did not want to touch them, but because we are free willed, he could not prevent that knowledge from invading their consciousness if they chose to disobey him. He put a penalty in front of it that was so huge, that only a fool would have transgressed his command…..but a fool did….to join his disobedient wife instead of obeying his Creator and Sovereign ruler.
The only way to show humans and angels the value of obedience to their Creator was to allow them to experience first hand what the abuse of free will can lead to…..an immoral world lost in sin, and in complete chaos. Luke 21:25-28 tells us that when the judgment by Christ is about to take place, we will see….
”….on the earth anguish of nations not knowing the way out because of the roaring of the sea and its agitation. 26 People will become faint out of fear and expectation of the things coming upon the inhabited earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 27 And then they will see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 But as these things start to occur, stand up straight and lift up your heads, because your deliverance is getting near.”
None of what the human race has endured since creation was meant to happen…..we all know in our hearts that this is not ‘the real life’…the one God intended for us to live at the start. But we can rest assured that what God starts, he finishes, (Isa 55:11) so we wait patiently for “the restoration of all things”…..because Jesus came to “buy back“ (redeem) all that we lost. (Rev 21:2-4)
We have “need of endurance” because this race for life is a marathon….
The answers you're getting are somewhat shocking and arrogant. Yes God needs man, to have joy of his creation. Does god need to save man, yes and no. He needs to save the good and destroy the evil and separate the wheat from the chaff. He demonstrated this desire of his by sending his son Jesus.
Does God need me? I don't know. But if he destroyed all of man would he loose something he needed? Yes. He did destroy many with the flood and let Noah live that his descendants might become good people. So by that and in the future when Jesus returns, he saves and desires the good and destroys the wicked.
Also regarding whether or not God needs man, what did Jesus say? And does this not sound like he needs his lost sheep?
Luke 15:4 “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? 5 And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing.
Maybe God doesn't need all of us, but he loves all of us and desires to save each and every one of us. Perhaps he needs to save us, we just need to let him to fulfill his love for us.
Luke 15:4 “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? 5 And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing.
Maybe God doesn't need all of us, but he loves all of us and desires to save each and every one of us. Perhaps he needs to save us, we just need to let him to fulfill his love for us.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Everything that God permits us designed to teach us something. Evil for its own sake accomplishes nothing that is of benefit, but like discipline administered to our own children, the pain of it is meant to act as a deterrent so that the lesson will not be lost. Discipline, though painful, is a powerful deterrent to those who understand the lesson.
We humans needed to learn what free will can do if it is not exercised within the limits God has set. It is apparent that we could not be told about how evil would affect our lives…we had to be shown. All of humanity needed to learn the value of obedience…and the angels along with them.
What is the benefit of experiencing the opposite of God’s goodness first hand? A world we would never want to see again…..the lesson is not lost on those who have learned by it, but for those who love evil and want to practice it, there is no way for them to stay alive to spoil life for others. Think of all those evil despots who had power over others, enforcing their will on whole populations, subjecting them to much suffering and robbing them of their free will. Such people will never exist again.
The one thing that God never gave his human creation was the right to exercise power over others. In the beginning there was one Sovereign who did have the right to make and enforce his rules, because free will had to have limits, which God set right at the start…..one tree was claimed as the Creator’s own property.
His generous provision of all the other trees meant that refraining from taking this fruit, caused them no hardship whatsoever. The fruit itself was not poisonous, but it represented God’s Sovereignty, which had to be respected. It was a capital crime to steal from your Sovereign in many human cultures…..even taking a piece of fruit that belonged to your king or queen, meant the death penalty.
So, is there benefit in experiencing evil by God’s permission? If it means dividing the good from the evil humans by the exercise of their own free will, then yes there is. If it means that evil will never exist in the world again, was it worth it? Our short life in this world will be nothing more than a moment of inconvenience compared to the eternity of life in a new word of righteousness where God’s original purpose for mankind is finally accomplished. (Rev 21:2-4)
After cleansing the earth of evil and all who desire to practice it, imagine living forever in paradise as the caretakers that God intended for us to be here…..this is our purpose, and in exchange for taking care of God’s creation, we get to enjoy it forever……sounds good to me….
There is no verse anywhere in the New Testament that says God has a plan for my life or the Christian. Such a concept is Catholic and not biblical.
The Bible has much to say about the future of those who belong to Messiah.
I view that as a biblical plan - God’s plan - for me / Christians.
Now you are talking about God's new covenant. But there is no plan just for any one Christian person.
Let me try this another way. I have a car that I use to get to work. The plan was to buy the car and use it in this way. I don't need a car to get to work.
You need to get to work. You have a plan to get to work. Your plan depends on the pieces in order to accomplish your ends.
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Do you think the suggestion that God needs man as a piece of his plan, to accomplish his ends, conveys the idea of weakness in God?
I'm on the same page with you. I just don't think God needs us or the plan He's working on with us. And I don't need to go to work either.
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