Peter the Rock?

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Truthnightmare

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It is important to become familiar with the analogies and figures of speech utilized in the word. Peter could never have been the rock the church was built on, because the first rock has to be set perfect to lay a foundation that won’t collapse, shift, give etc.

We have a perfect Rock…

Deuteronomy 32: 4
The Rock, his work is perfect, for all his ways are justice.
 

The Learner

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On Academia.edu | Log In refers to me only 735 papers mention “Daniel Marsh”.
Peter, the Rock & Matthew 16:18: A Grammatical Analysis

Johnny Sakr
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Biblical Exegesis,
Biblical Studies. Koine Greek Language,
The Papacy,
Historical-Grammatical Exegesis
Grammatically, Peter is not identified as the 'rock' on which Christ builds His Church in Matthew 16:18.
https://www.reddit.com/r/OrthodoxChristianity/comments/rc7l7u
just exploring
 
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Truthnightmare

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On Academia.edu | Log In refers to me only 735 papers mention “Daniel Marsh”.
Peter, the Rock & Matthew 16:18: A Grammatical Analysis

Johnny Sakr
1565 Views
13 Pages
1 File ▾
Biblical Exegesis,
Biblical Studies. Koine Greek Language,
The Papacy,
Historical-Grammatical Exegesis
Grammatically, Peter is not identified as the 'rock' on which Christ builds His Church in Matthew 16:18.
https://www.reddit.com/r/OrthodoxChristianity/comments/rc7l7u
just exploring
Would there be a church if Christ had not came and died? Who would Peter be if there was no Christ? Kinda simple unless one has motives beyond searching for truth. Peter can’t be first in the formula if his religion was based on another.
 

Phoneman777

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Matthew 16:18
Text Analysis
Go to Parallel Greek
Strong'sGreekEnglishMorphology
2504 [e]κἀγὼ
kagō
I alsoPPro-N1S
1161 [e]δέ
de
nowConj
4771 [e]σοι
soi
to youPPro-D2S
3004 [e]λέγω
legō
sayV-PIA-1S
3754 [e]ὅτι
hoti
thatConj
4771 [e]σὺ
sy
youPPro-N2S
1510 [e]εἶ
ei
areV-PIA-2S
4074 [e]Πέτρος,
Petros
Peter,N-NMS
2532 [e]καὶ
kai
andConj
1909 [e]ἐπὶ
epi
onPrep
3778 [e]ταύτῃ
tautē
thisDPro-DFS
3588 [e]τῇ
theArt-DFS
4073 [e]πέτρᾳ
petra
rockN-DFS
3618 [e]οἰκοδομήσω
oikodomēsō
I will buildV-FIA-1S
1473 [e]μου
mou
MyPPro-G1S
3588 [e]τὴν
tēn
-Art-AFS
1577 [e]ἐκκλησίαν,
ekklēsian
church,N-AFS
2532 [e]καὶ
kai
andConj
4439 [e]πύλαι
pylai
[the] gatesN-NFP
86 [e]ᾅδου
hadou
of hadesN-GMS
3756 [e]οὐ
ou
notAdv
2729 [e]κατισχύσουσιν
katischysousin
will prevail againstV-FIA-3P
846 [e]αὐτῆς.
autēs
it.PPro-GF3S
If only our catholic friends would consider the Greek distinction between "pebble" and "rock" - but integral to the false teachings of catholicism is that she would "cast the truth to the ground" as the prophecies of Daniel indicate.
 

Illuminator

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On Academia.edu | Log In refers to me only 735 papers mention “Daniel Marsh”.
Peter, the Rock & Matthew 16:18: A Grammatical Analysis

Johnny Sakr
1565 Views
13 Pages
1 File ▾
Biblical Exegesis,
Biblical Studies. Koine Greek Language,
The Papacy,
Historical-Grammatical Exegesis
Grammatically, Peter is not identified as the 'rock' on which Christ builds His Church in Matthew 16:18.
https://www.reddit.com/r/OrthodoxChristianity/comments/rc7l7u
just exploring
Many Protestants base their rejection of the Catholic view off of the supposed difference in meaning between Petros and Petra. That difference in meaning doesn’t really exist in the Greek spoken at the time of Christ. But in any case, as John 1:43 shows, Jesus named Peter “Cephas” in Aramaic, which is the exact same word as “Rock.” In Aramaic it’s Cephas and cephas; literally translating that to Greek would give you Petra and petra, which is a problem, since Petra is feminine, and can’t be used as a man’s name. So St. Matthew renders it as the male Petros instead.

Even if Protestants were right about the proper interpretation of “the Rock” in Matthew 16, the broader passage still supports the papacy, since it shows the foundation of an institutional Church, and the giving of specific powers (the Keys, and the powers of binding/loosening) to Peter individually. For this reason, you can have Fathers like St. Augustine, who aren’t sure on the proper interpretation of “the Rock,” but are steadfast in their belief in the papacy, based upon Petrine authority. IN fact, even if Matthew 16 didn’t exist, there would still be abundant support for the papacy throughout the rest of Scripture and in the testimony of the early Christians.
 
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BreadOfLife

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If only our catholic friends would consider the Greek distinction between "pebble" and "rock" - but integral to the false teachings of catholicism is that she would "cast the truth to the ground" as the prophecies of Daniel indicate.
And if only our obstinate anti-Catholic friends woulf consider that Jesus didn't speak Greek to His Apostles.

If only they would ask themselves why Peter is referred to as "Cephas" in Paul's Letters and not "Petros" . . .
 
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BreadOfLife

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It is important to become familiar with the analogies and figures of speech utilized in the word. Peter could never have been the rock the church was built on, because the first rock has to be set perfect to lay a foundation that won’t collapse, shift, give etc.

We have a perfect Rock…

Deuteronomy 32: 4
The Rock, his work is perfect, for all his ways are justice.
If only our catholic friends would consider the Greek distinction between "pebble" and "rock" - but integral to the false teachings of catholicism is that she would "cast the truth to the ground" as the prophecies of Daniel indicate.
Time for a Bible Lesson . . .

The Church is the Bride of Christ.

In Rev. 12, the Church - the Bride - is described as the New Jerusalem coming down from Heaven.
- She is described as having TWELVE foundations of precious stones (Rev 12:9-14).
- Each foundation is emblazoned with the name of each of the TELVE Apostles.
- Peter is the FIRST among the Apostles, as the Scriptures emphatically state (Matt. 10:2, Mark. 3:16, Luke 6:14, Luke 22:31-32, John 21:15-19, Acts 1:13).

WHOSE name do you suppose will be on the first Foundation?

Kepha – Cephas – Peter.
 

Truthnightmare

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Time for a Bible Lesson . . .

The Church is the Bride of Christ.

In Rev. 12, the Church - the Bride - is described as the New Jerusalem coming down from Heaven.
- She is described as having TWELVE foundations of precious stones (Rev 12:9-14).
- Each foundation is emblazoned with the name of each of the TELVE Apostles.
- Peter is the FIRST among the Apostles, as the Scriptures emphatically state (Matt. 10:2, Mark. 3:16, Luke 6:14, Luke 22:31-32, John 21:15-19, Acts 1:13).

WHOSE name do you suppose will be on the first Foundation?

Kepha – Cephas – Peter.
Are you serious?

Revelation 12:9-14

9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Nothing about new Jerusalem or the church being the bride or twelve stones.

10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

Nothing about new Jerusalem or the church being the bride or twelve stones.


11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Nothing about new Jerusalem or the church being the bride or twelve stones.

12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Nothing about new Jerusalem or the church being the bride or twelve stones.

13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

Nothing about new Jerusalem or the church being the bride or twelve stones.

14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

Nothing about new Jerusalem or the church being the bride or twelve stones.

Either you’re just making up things, or your Bible is broken, either way that was the worse Bible lesson ever!
 

Phoneman777

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And if only our obstinate anti-Catholic friends woulf consider that Jesus didn't speak Greek to His Apostles.

If only they would ask themselves why Peter is referred to as "Cephas" in Paul's Letters and not "Petros" . . .
If only our papal antichrist friends would understand that Jesus would never choose someone He called "Satan" to build His church upon. He built it upon the unquestionable authority of God's Word...not some man who catholics claims his word "precedes and God subscribes to it".
 
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Phoneman777

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Time for a Bible Lesson . . .

The Church is the Bride of Christ.

In Rev. 12, the Church - the Bride - is described as the New Jerusalem coming down from Heaven.
- She is described as having TWELVE foundations of precious stones (Rev 12:9-14).
- Each foundation is emblazoned with the name of each of the TELVE Apostles.
- Peter is the FIRST among the Apostles, as the Scriptures emphatically state (Matt. 10:2, Mark. 3:16, Luke 6:14, Luke 22:31-32, John 21:15-19, Acts 1:13).

WHOSE name do you suppose will be on the first Foundation?

Kepha – Cephas – Peter.
The catholic church cannot be God's end times "remnant church" because a "remnant" of something is identical to that which was there at the very beginning.

Since the catholic church openly claims the power to change God's law and admits to doing so, she cannot be "identical" to the church that was established by Jesus in the beginning - and by this, disqualifies herself as God's true "remnant" church of the end times.
 
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Truthnightmare

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Why is this so hard to understand?

A church (building) starts with a corner stone then the foundation is laid. That corner stone (rock) has to be perfect or the foundation will be uneven. Peter was not perfect, but there is a perfect rock.

Deuteronomy 32:4
He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.
 

RedFan

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Why is this so hard to understand?

A church (building) starts with a corner stone then the foundation is laid. That corner stone (rock) has to be perfect or the foundation will be uneven. Peter was not perfect, but there is a perfect rock.

Deuteronomy 32:4
He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.
I am not Roman Catholic, and I am not convinced that Peter was the rock on which Christ built His church -- but to my thinking, the fact that Peter was not perfect is no disqualifier. Paul persecuted Christians, yet became the greatest evangelizer the church has ever known. David was a murderer (of Uriah) to satisfy his lust (for Uriah's wife), yet was the greatest king Israel has ever known. God has shown that He can use imperfect men for marvelous purposes.
 
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Truthnightmare

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I am not Roman Catholic, and I am not convinced that Peter was the rock on which Christ built His church -- but to my thinking, the fact that Peter was not perfect is no disqualifier. Paul persecuted Christians, yet became the greatest evangelizer the church has ever known. David was a murderer (of Uriah) to satisfy his lust (for Uriah's wife), yet was the greatest king Israel has ever known. God has shown that He can use imperfect men for marvelous purposes.
I agree…. But we find our answers in scripture.

Matthew 7
24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

Notice this next verse….

27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

Let’s make a connection here…..

Matthew 7:29

29 And he said, Come. And when Peter was come down out of the ship, he walked on the water, to go to Jesus.

30 But when he saw the wind boisterous, he was afraid; and beginning to sink, he cried, saying, Lord, save me.

If the church was built on Peter, as soon as winds (trouble) comes the church would sink, just as Peter did.
 
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RedFan

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I agree…. But we find our answers in scripture.

Matthew 7
24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

Notice this next verse….

27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

Let’s make a connection here…..

Matthew 7:29

29 And he said, Come. And when Peter was come down out of the ship, he walked on the water, to go to Jesus.

30 But when he saw the wind boisterous, he was afraid; and beginning to sink, he cried, saying, Lord, save me.

If the church was built on Peter, as soon as winds (trouble) comes the church would sink, just as Peter did.
But these Petrine flaws were pre-confession in Matt. 16. Post-flaws, who is to say how Peter (or Paul, or David) might be used by God?
 
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Ritajanice

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1 Corinthians 10:4 KJV​

and did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

John 4:14​

King James Version​

14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

What do you think rivers of living water represents ...none other than Jesus.the Holy Spirit.

“Rivers of living water” represent the Holy Spirit's presence and power poured out on Jesus' followers. The Spirit's presence points to his cleansing and sanctifying work in the hearts of God's children.
 
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Truthnightmare

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But these Petrine flaws were pre-confession in Matt. 16. Post-flaws, who is to say how Peter (or Paul, or David) might be used by God?

Scripture is to say….

Can Paul Peter or David forgive sins?
Can Paul Peter or David defeat death?
Can Paul Peter or David mediate between man a God….

God can use man for many things as it is written…

John 14:12
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

But these great works of man are only able to be done because when Christ goes to the Father He sends the Holy Spirit that enables us.

John 16:7
Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.”

Let’s just make it simple…

The church is spiritual, it is a body of believers…
Can you see what a persons believes?

John 3:6
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.”

God is spirit….

John 4:24
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.”

The church which is spiritual was built upon He that is Spirit.
 

BreadOfLife

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The catholic church cannot be God's end times "remnant church" because a "remnant" of something is identical to that which was there at the very beginning.

Since the catholic church openly claims the power to change God's law and admits to doing so, she cannot be "identical" to the church that was established by Jesus in the beginning - and by this, disqualifies herself as God's true "remnant" church of the end times.
HOGWASH.
If YOU actually believe that God’s Church did NOT grow from the acorn to the mighty OAK – then you have a very DIM view of Christ.

His Church started out with a HANDFUL of people whom He commanded to “Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, (Matt. 28:19-20).

Jesus never told His Apostles that they now knew everything they need to know. When the issue of the Judaizers cam about in Acts 15, they needed to discuss the matter and come to a conclusion.

He told these that the Holy Spirit would guide them to ALL truth (John 16:12-15) and that whatever they bind or loose on earth would be bound and loosed in Heaven (Matt. 16:18-19, Matt. 18:15).

He also told them what whoever listens to or rejects THEM listens to or rejects HIM and the ONE who sent Him. THAT’S why there are so many fractured and perpetually-splintering faction among Protestantism.

Christ’s Church should be anything BUT identical to when it started.
It grew op and changed the
world . . .
 

BreadOfLife

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Are you serious?
Revelation 12:9-14
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Nothing about new Jerusalem or the church being the bride or twelve stones.

10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

Nothing about new Jerusalem or the church being the bride or twelve stones.

11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Nothing about new Jerusalem or the church being the bride or twelve stones.

12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Nothing about new Jerusalem or the church being the bride or twelve stones.

13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

Nothing about new Jerusalem or the church being the bride or twelve stones.

14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

Nothing about new Jerusalem or the church being the bride or twelve stones.

Either you’re just making up things, or your Bible is broken, either way that was the worse Bible lesson ever!
An obvious TYPO . . .
You will find ALL of thois information in Rev. 21.

You should hsaver ALREADY known these verses . . .
 
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BreadOfLife

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If only our papal antichrist friends would understand that Jesus would never choose someone He called "Satan" to build His church upon. He built it upon the unquestionable authority of God's Word...not some man who catholics claims his word "precedes and God subscribes to it".
EVERY ONE of us, being bon in sin – have ALL been a “satan” to Christ at one point of another.

Satan simply means “Adversary”. It’s NOT the name of the Devil, Einstein . .
 
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