Peter the Rock?

[Wrangler]

The same line of reasoning applies to Peter and the rock in Matthew 16:18. If Jesus speaks of a rock in the first part of the sentence in this verse, and then speaks of “this rock” in the second part of that same sentence, then it’s reasonable to conclude that “this rock” in the second part of the sentence refers to the rock spoken of in the first part of the sentence, namely, Peter.

This rationalization has already been debunked numerous times in this thread.

 

[BreadOfLife]

It’s not about being anti-Catholic, I’m surely not.

WRONG.
You ARE an anti-Catholic.

An anti-Catholic is a person who not only dislikes the Catholic Church but goes out of their way to vomit out LIES about the Church. This is precisely what YOU do.
YOU claimed that the Church believes that we are saved BY our WORKS, which is patently false

But when the Catholic Church contradicts the Bible, then one must make a choice.

Example:

world, O Mother of God, but were joined to the source of Life. You conceived the living God and, by your prayers, will deliver our souls from death." [Byzantine Liturgy, Troparion, Feast of the Dormition, August 15th.]

I don’t believe Mary’s prayers can deliver my soul. That doesn’t make me anti-Catholic.

NOTHING about this “contradicts” the Bible.

First of all – if you believe that Jesus is God – and Mary is the Mother of Jesus – then
She is the Mother of God. NOBODY ever said she was the Mother of the Trinity,

As to the Byzantine prayer you mentioned – it doesn’t imply that Maru SAVES anybody’s soul. Prayerful intercession aids in our salvation. This particular prayer is aimed at Mary’s intercession.
Rev. 5:8 is a perfect illustration of the saints in heaven interceding on our behalf by TAKING our prayers and petitions to God. Go figure . . .

If you spent HALF as much time reading the Bible as you do spewing Catholic hatred – you might be able to figure out what the Bible is actually saying . . .

 

[Truthnightmare]

WRONG.
You ARE an anti-Catholic.

An anti-Catholic is a person who not only dislikes the Catholic Church but goes out of their way to vomit out LIES about the Church. This is precisely what YOU do.
YOU claimed that the Church believes that we are saved BY our WORKS, which is patently false

NOTHING about this “contradicts” the Bible.

First of all – if you believe that Jesus is God – and Mary is the Mother of Jesus – then
She is the Mother of God. NOBODY ever said she was the Mother of the Trinity,

As to the Byzantine prayer you mentioned – it doesn’t imply that Maru SAVES anybody’s soul. Prayerful intercession aids in our salvation. This particular prayer is aimed at Mary’s intercession.
Rev. 5:8 is a perfect illustration of the saints in heaven interceding on our behalf by TAKING our prayers and petitions to God. Go figure . . .

If you spent HALF as much time reading the Bible as you do spewing Catholic hatred – you might be able to figure out what the Bible is actually saying . . .

You can’t tell me who I like and dislike, who do you think you are… I haven’t known you for a month. I grew up Catholic, had sleep overs in Cathedrals…



Thats San Francisco, Ca

I was an acolyte in the church, my library has the golden nuggets and holy order of mans literature.

No no no … I don’t dislike the Catholic Church, I just dislike you.

 

[BreadOfLife]

You can’t tell me who I like and dislike, who do you think you are… I haven’t known you for a month. I grew up Catholic, had sleep overs in Cathedrals…

Fait enough. I was responding to @Zao is life who is the person I was originally having this conversation with.

As for your having one been a Catholic – you should know better than to raise the impotent argument that you did.

View attachment 40927

Thats San Francisco, Ca

I was an acolyte in the church, my library has the golden nuggets and holy order of mans literature.

No no no … I don’t dislike the Catholic Church, I just dislike you.

That’s fine.

I’m not here to make friends – just to crush LIES . . .

 

[Truthnightmare]

Fait enough. I was responding to @Zao is life who is the person I was originally having this conversation with.

As for your having one been a Catholic – you should know better than to raise the impotent argument that you did.

That’s fine.

I’m not here to make friends – just to crush LIES . . .

God is the same yesterday today and forever.. We should at least attempt this model.. We were commanded to love each other, and our discussions should be centered around edification and love….

But you are not the same are you? This “not to make friends” attitude is a facade, a joke. Bring that same mentality and energy to the streets!

I’m from the land of gold teeth, dread locks and head shots… And I know damn well you would not speak this way if said person was in front of you… You would be trying to make a friend in fear of swallowing your own teeth.

I treat people the same in the hood, in the church, in jail or at work.. etc.

I don’t become insulting because I’m behind a phone or laptop. By the way… My mom was prayed over by a Catholic priest upon her passing… You don’t know crap!!

 

[BreadOfLife]

God is the same yesterday today and forever.. We should at least attempt this model.. We were commanded to love each other, and our discussions should be centered around edification and love….

But you are not the same are you? This “not to make friends” attitude is a facade, a joke. Bring that same mentality and energy to the streets!

I’m from the land of gold teeth, dread locks and head shots… And I know damn well you would not speak this way if said person was in front of you… You would be trying to make a friend in fear of swallowing your own teeth.

I treat people the same in the hood, in the church, in jail or at work.. etc.

I don’t become insulting because I’m behind a phone or laptop. By the way… My mom was prayed over by a Catholic priest upon her passing… You don’t know crap!!

I treat people with kindness and respect – when THEY are kind and respectful.

BUT – when I com to a place like this form and see the evil being vomited out from the mouths of such rabid, lying anti-Catholics, it’s time to expose them and and even spank them with the Truth.

If that offends you – it’s because YOU have bought into their lies instead of the truth.

I said it before and I’ll say it again – I have NO problem, with those who simply disagree with Catholic teaching. But, I have ZERO tolerance for those who spew lies, and hatred and try to pass it off as “truth” . . .


PS - Clean up your language. This is a CHRISTIAN forum - not a Marine barracks . . .

 

[Truthnightmare]

I treat people with kindness and respect – when THEY are kind and respectful.

BUT – when I com to a place like this form and see the evil being vomited out from the mouths of such rabid, lying anti-Catholics, it’s time to expose them and and even spank them with the Truth.

If that offends you – it’s because YOU have bought into their lies instead of the truth.

I said it before and I’ll say it again – I have NO problem, with those who simply disagree with Catholic teaching. But, I have ZERO tolerance for those who spew lies, and hatred and try to pass it off as “truth” . . .


PS - Clean up your language. This is a CHRISTIAN forum - not a Marine barracks . . .

My language was clean…. Aggressive; but clean.. If you want me to change it, make me. This is a Christian forum (not a Catholic forum) Peter would have cut your ear off for your insolence.

 

[BreadOfLife]

My language was clean…. Aggressive; but clean.. If you want me to change it, make me.

Really?
Go back and read YOUT words that I highlighted in RED.

This is a Christian forum (not a Catholic forum) Peter would have cut your ear off for your insolence.

And if you knew your history - which you obviously don't - you wouldn't make that arrogant claim. Yyou would know that Catholics were the very FIRST Christians.

In the First century, there were NO -
Baptist Christians
Lutheran Christians
Presbyterian Christians
Calvinist Christians
Methodist Christians
Evangelical "non-denominational" Christians, etc. They ALL cam 1500 years or more later.

The Catholic Church was the ONLY game in town . . .

 

[Truthnightmare]

Really?
Go back and read YOUT words that I highlighted in RED.

And if you knew your history - which you obviously don't - you wouldn't make that arrogant claim. Yyou would know that Catholics were the very FIRST Christians.

In the First century, there were NO -
Baptist Christians
Lutheran Christians
Presbyterian Christians
Calvinist Christians
Methodist Christians
Evangelical "non-denominational" Christians, etc. They ALL cam 1500 years or more later.

The Catholic Church was the ONLY game in town . . .

I don’t care….. We were told to have no divisions.

1 Corinthians 1:10
Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

If I call myself Catholic, when encounter a Protestant, they may have pre-conceived notions.

And the same with approaching as a Protestant upon a Catholic.

The Bible declares….
Matthew: 16
24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

That’s all I have to do… Now I see why John stayed in the wilderness away from you crazy people.

 

[The Learner]

Hello….

This was addressed by many…..


The specific words that are key to understanding this are "Peter" and "rock," for they are both derivatives of the same word meaning rock. But the word translated to "Peter" in the verse above (and below) is petros, and the word translated to "rock" is petra. Also, the word "rock" below has the definite article in the Greek (although it is not seen in the English language translation), whereas the word "Peter" (although capitalized in the English translation) does not have the definite article. (Illustration to follow.)

But simply stated, a petros is a small rock; while petra is a large rock, even a solid foundation of stone.



Below is a copy of the original Greek words of the key part of the verse. Notice the definite article (tee-Grk. word #3588) preceding "rock":

Also, the word "and" (between "Peter" and "upon") in the above illustration is kai in the Greek and can also be translated to the word "but" in the English. This of course changes the way that this verse is commonly understood. Observe:

But to give you a sense of the meaning of the word petra ("rock"), there is a city carved out of the side of a mountain, located in modern day Jordan, which is called Petra. "Peter" (petros) was a movable stone, a smaller piece; petra(translated "rock") was a solid foundation; and incidentally, that Rock was Christ:

NASB Lexicon

NASB ©	Greek	Strong's	Origin
Simon	Σίμων (simōn)	4613: Simon, the name of several Isr.	of uncertain origin
Peter	Πέτρος (petros)	4074: "a stone" or "a boulder," Peter, one of the twelve apostles	a noun akin to petra, used as a proper name
answered,	ἀποκριθεὶς (apokritheis)	611: to answer	from apo and krinó
"You are the Christ,	χριστὸς (christos)	5547: the Anointed One, Messiah, Christ	from chrió
the Son	υἱὸς (uios)	5207: a son	a prim. word
of the living	ζῶντος (zōntos)	2198: to live	from prim. roots zé- and zó-
God."	θεοῦ (theou)	2316: God, a god	of uncertain origin

KJV Lexicon
αποκριθεις verb - aorist passive deponent participle - nominative singular masculine
apokrinomai ap-ok-ree'-nom-ahee: to conclude for oneself, i.e. (by implication) to respond; by Hebraism to begin to speak (where an address is expected) -- answer.

---

δε conjunction
de deh: but, and, etc. -- also, and, but, moreover, now (often unexpressed in English).

---

σιμων noun - nominative singular masculine
Simon see'-mone: Simon (i.e. Shimon), the name of nine Israelites -- Simon.

---

πετρος noun - nominative singular masculine
Petros pet'-ros: as a name, Petrus, an apostle -- Peter, rock.

---

ειπεν verb - second aorist active indicative - third person singular
epo ep'-o: to speak or say (by word or writing) -- answer, bid, bring word, call, command, grant, say (on), speak, tell.

---

συ personal pronoun - second person nominative singular
su soo: the person pronoun of the second person singular thou -- thou.

---

ει verb - present indicative - second person singular
ei i: thou art -- art, be.

---

ο definite article - nominative singular masculine
ho ho: the definite article; the (sometimes to be supplied, at others omitted, in English idiom) -- the, this, that, one, he, she, it, etc.

---

χριστος noun - nominative singular masculine
Christos khris-tos': anointed, i.e. the Messiah, an epithet of Jesus -- Christ.

---

ο definite article - nominative singular masculine
ho ho: the definite article; the (sometimes to be supplied, at others omitted, in English idiom) -- the, this, that, one, he, she, it, etc.

---

υιος noun - nominative singular masculine
huios hwee-os': a son (sometimes of animals), used very widely of immediate, remote or figuratively, kinship -- child, foal, son.

---

του definite article - genitive singular masculine
ho ho: the definite article; the (sometimes to be supplied, at others omitted, in English idiom) -- the, this, that, one, he, she, it, etc.

---

θεου noun - genitive singular masculine
theos theh'-os: a deity; figuratively, a magistrate; by Hebraism, very -- exceeding, God, god(-ly, -ward).

---

του definite article - genitive singular masculine
ho ho: the definite article; the (sometimes to be supplied, at others omitted, in English idiom) -- the, this, that, one, he, she, it, etc.

---

ζωντος verb - present active participle - genitive singular masculine
zao dzah'-o: to live -- life(-time), (a-)live(-ly), quick.
Parallel Verses

Matthew 16:16 Lexicon: Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."

 

[BreadOfLife]

I don’t care….. We were told to have no divisions.

1 Corinthians 1:10
Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

Precisely.

If there were to be NO divisiona - then WHY ddid the Protestant Revolt and its aftermath spawn literalt tens of thousands of disjointed and perpetually-splintering factions that ALL teah different doctrines?

If I call myself Catholic, when encounter a Protestant, they may have pre-conceived notions.
And the same with approaching as a Protestant upon a Catholic.

The Bible declares….
Matthew: 16
24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

That’s all I have to do… Now I see why John stayed in the wilderness away from you crazy people.

You should be more concerned with following the truth of Christ thn in what other peopple might think . . .

 

[The Learner]

Google patristic analysis of matthew 16 18
Excelent Study: "Upon This Rock": an Exegetical and Patristic Examination of Matthew 16:18 | Bible.org
google Matt 16:16-18 definite article

 

[Phoneman777]

Thanks Phoneman,

I provided links to 3 separate websites that support my statement.

Would you provide evidence to back up your statement?

Thank you in advance.....Mary

Thanks for the links Mary. Here's a couple for you:

who is the big rock and the small rock | truthandlove

www.truthandloveministry.com

from Strong's Greek: 4074. Πέτρος (Petros) -- "a stone" or "a boulder," Peter, one of the twelve apostles
4074 Pétros (a masculine noun) – properly, a stone (pebble), such as a small rock found along a pathway. 4074 /Pétros ("small stone") then stands in contrast to 4073 /pétra ("cliff, boulder," Abbott-Smith).

"4074 (Pétros) is an isolated rock and 4073 (pétra) is a cliff" (TDNT, 3, 100). "4074 (Pétros) always means a stone . . . such as a man may throw, . . . versus 4073 (pétra), a projecting rock, cliff" (S. Zodhiates, Dict).

 

[Phoneman777]

I’m sticking with the ONLY Church established by Jesus Christ and His Apostles.

YOU’VE chosen to follow the lunatic ravings of an imbalanced 19th century woman . . ..

Whatever you're sticking with, it ain't the "remnant" church, because catholicism is NOT identical to the -primitive church Christ established.

 

[Phoneman777]

In that context Satan simply means Adversary.

He called him "Satan" - a proper name.

 

[RedFan]

WAS PETER THE TRUE ROCK?

1. If so, why didn't Jesus Christ say it more than once, or clarify it better? (Matt 18:16, II Corinthians 13:1)
This subject is still debated by Catholic and Protestant writers alike. One has to admit, that if Christ was making Peter the first Pope, he didn't exactly say so.

If Peter’s confession of faith is the “rock,” then why didn't Jesus say “upon this faith” or “upon your words” I will build my Church? THAT would have been clarifying it better!

 

[Marymog]

Thanks for the links Mary. Here's a couple for you:

who is the big rock and the small rock | truthandlove

www.truthandloveministry.com

from Strong's Greek: 4074. Πέτρος (Petros) -- "a stone" or "a boulder," Peter, one of the twelve apostles
4074 Pétros (a masculine noun) – properly, a stone (pebble), such as a small rock found along a pathway. 4074 /Pétros ("small stone") then stands in contrast to 4073 /pétra ("cliff, boulder," Abbott-Smith).

"4074 (Pétros) is an isolated rock and 4073 (pétra) is a cliff" (TDNT, 3, 100). "4074 (Pétros) always means a stone . . . such as a man may throw, . . . versus 4073 (pétra), a projecting rock, cliff" (S. Zodhiates, Dict).

Hey Phoneman,

I gave you links to back up what I said/believe so I asked you for any website links to back up your statement, "Jesus called Peter "petros" which doesn't mean "rock" - it means something like "rolling pebble" pushed to and fro," You said Greek scholars disagree with me.

Your post from Strongs Greek supports exactly what I said and does not support your "rolling pebble" statement.

You also post a link to Osmundo S. Sabado(?) giving his opinion on Peter being the rock. Is Sabado a Greek Scholar? No, he is not. So would you like to give me anything from a Greek Scholar AND anything that supports what you said instead of defeats what you said?

Mary

 

[Illuminator]

If Peter’s confession of faith is the “rock,” then why didn't Jesus say “upon this faith” or “upon your words” I will build my Church? THAT would have been clarifying it better!

Clarifying would be: "You are Peter (Rock) and upon the opinions 15 centuries from now I will build my Church."
That's not what He said, but how it is often read.

 

[RedFan]

Thanks for the links Mary. Here's a couple for you:

who is the big rock and the small rock | truthandlove

www.truthandloveministry.com

Phoneman777, I respect your opinion (although I am not sure I agree with it). And I've read a lot of scholarly writings on both sides of the debate. There are indeed some that support your opinion, and a few make quite cogent arguments. But this link you provided is absolute crap. And choosing to post it undermines your credibility. I'd hate to see that happen, because I think you can add something to the debate.

 

[Truthnightmare]

Precisely.

If there were to be NO divisiona - then WHY ddid the Protestant Revolt and its aftermath spawn literalt tens of thousands of disjointed and perpetually-splintering factions that ALL teah different doctrines?

You should be more concerned with following the truth of Christ thn in what other peopple might think . . .

I do… and Christ said…
24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Take up the cross and follow Him… I don’t need you or your church to obey these simple instructions.