Peter the Rock?

[RedFan]

Why does Paul call Peter "Cephas" (Aramaic for Rock) 6 times? Cephas is his new name, it's not a metaphor. A chief cornerstone is a metaphor, unless you want to argue the "chief corner stone" is a literal name for Jesus.
Why does Jesus call Peter "Cephas" in John 1:42???
It's too bad you can't see the absurdity of your arguments.

It's clear that the name "Cephas" stuck when Jesus renamed Simon. Everyone knew it, including Paul and John. But we can't automatically assume that they knew why Jesus renamed him that. If John was present for the colloquy recorded in Matt. 16:18, and if he authored the gospel that bears his name, I might be more willing to make that further assumption in his case. Not in Paul's case.

 

[Wrangler]

Already answered that.....Moving on!

Yea, right! You almost always avoid answering.

 

[Illuminator]

It's clear that the name "Cephas" stuck when Jesus renamed Simon. Everyone knew it, including Paul and John. But we can't automatically assume that they knew why Jesus renamed him that.

Do you think the Apostles didn't know why Jesus renamed Simon?

To argue that Jesus first blesses Peter for having received divine revelation from the Father, then diminishes him by calling him a small pebble, and then builds him up again by giving him the keys to the kingdom of heaven is entirely illogical, and a gross manipulation of the text to avoid the truth of Peter’s leadership in the Church. This is a three-fold blessing of Peter – you are blessed, you are the rock on which I will build my Church, and you will receive the keys to the kingdom of heaven (not you are blessed for receiving Revelation, but you are still an insignificant little pebble, and yet I am going to give you the keys to the kingdom). entirely illogical

Matt. 16:18-19 – to further rebut the Protestant argument that Jesus was speaking about Peter’s confession of faith (not Peter himself) based on the revelation he received, the verses are clear that Jesus, after acknowledging Peter’s receipt of divine revelation, turns the whole discourse to the person of Peter: Blessed are “you” Simon, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to “you,” and I tell “you,” “you” are Peter, and on this rock I will build my Church. I will give “you” the keys to the kingdom, and whatever “you” bind and loose on earth will be bound and loosed in heaven. Jesus’ whole discourse relates to the person of Peter, not his confession of faith.

Matt. 16:13 – also, from a geographical perspective, Jesus renames Simon to rock in Caesarea Philippi near a massive rock formation on which Herod built a temple to Caesar. Jesus chose this setting to further emphasize that Peter was indeed the rock on which the Church would be built.

If John was present for the colloquy recorded in Matt. 16:18, and if he authored the gospel that bears his name, I might be more willing to make that further assumption in his case. Not in Paul's case.

John, Paul. and Peter taught the same Gospel or the Bible has contradictions, which it doesn't.
Do you think the Apostles didn't know why Jesus renamed Simon?

 

[RedFan]

Do you think the Apostles didn't know why Jesus renamed Simon?

To argue that Jesus first blesses Peter for having received divine revelation from the Father, then diminishes him by calling him a small pebble, and then builds him up again by giving him the keys to the kingdom of heaven is entirely illogical, and a gross manipulation of the text to avoid the truth of Peter’s leadership in the Church. This is a three-fold blessing of Peter – you are blessed, you are the rock on which I will build my Church, and you will receive the keys to the kingdom of heaven (not you are blessed for receiving Revelation, but you are still an insignificant little pebble, and yet I am going to give you the keys to the kingdom). entirely illogical

Matt. 16:18-19 – to further rebut the Protestant argument that Jesus was speaking about Peter’s confession of faith (not Peter himself) based on the revelation he received, the verses are clear that Jesus, after acknowledging Peter’s receipt of divine revelation, turns the whole discourse to the person of Peter: Blessed are “you” Simon, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to “you,” and I tell “you,” “you” are Peter, and on this rock I will build my Church. I will give “you” the keys to the kingdom, and whatever “you” bind and loose on earth will be bound and loosed in heaven. Jesus’ whole discourse relates to the person of Peter, not his confession of faith.

Matt. 16:13 – also, from a geographical perspective, Jesus renames Simon to rock in Caesarea Philippi near a massive rock formation on which Herod built a temple to Caesar. Jesus chose this setting to further emphasize that Peter was indeed the rock on which the Church would be built.

John, Paul. and Peter taught the same Gospel or the Bible has contradictions, which it doesn't.
Do you think the Apostles didn't know why Jesus renamed Simon?

I am not disagreeing with you, my friend (except about the Bible not having contradictions; it does). I think the Apostles did know why Simon got renamed. But I don't. Unlike them, with their first-hand access to Jesus for years, all I have to go on are ambiguous verses. And while I am leaning toward your interpretation of the verse, I haven't made up my mind.

 

[Wrangler]

Do you think the Apostles didn't know why Jesus renamed Simon?

To argue that Jesus first blesses Peter for having received divine revelation from the Father, then diminishes him by calling him a small pebble, and then builds him up again by giving him the keys to the kingdom of heaven is entirely illogical, and a gross manipulation of the text to avoid the truth of Peter’s leadership in the Church.

The statement was know it, not think it. You can speculate all day. Doesn't make it knowledge.

No one is saying Peter was not A leader. He just wasn't THE leader. Based on NT writings, if any Apostle was pre-eminent it was the Apostle to the Gentiles, Paul, who literally wrote the book of Romans.

There simply is no Apostolic writing indicating one was Supreme like the Roman Catholics usurp, the vicar of Christ and all that.

 

[BreadOfLife]

The statement was know it, not think it. You can speculate all day. Doesn't make it knowledge.

No one is saying Peter was not A leader. He just wasn't THE leader. Based on NT writings, if any Apostle was pre-eminent it was the Apostle to the Gentiles, Paul, who literally wrote the book of Romans.

There simply is no Apostolic writing indicating one was Supreme like the Roman Catholics usurp, the vicar of Christ and all that.

Ummmm, JESUS did.

Jesus calls Himself the “Good Shepherd” (John 10:14).
What does a shepherd do? He in charge of the flock. He tends them and feeds them.

In John 21, Jesus asks Peter to take Hiis place on earth:
John 21:15
“Feed my lambs.”

John 21:16
“Take care of my sheep.”

John 21:17
“Feed my sheep.

Peter was singled-out by Jesus, who asked Peter - and Peter ALONE - to perform this task.

 

[Truthnightmare]

To follow His Church IS to follow HIM – and to reject His Church IS to reject HIM . . .
Jesus and His Church are ONE (Luke 10:16, John 17:21-23, Acts 9:4-5).

Good luck with that . . .

Ok, so I should follow the Catholic Church?

Should I also participate in gay marriages as the Pope has said…

ROME (AP) — Pope Francis formally approved letting Catholic priests bless same-sex couples, the Vatican announced Monday, a radical shift in policy that aimed at making the church more inclusive while maintaining its strict ban on gay marriage.

 

[Truthnightmare]

That is true. We are told to have no divisions. Jesus even prayed that we may all be one.

Since you no longer believe that the Catholic Church is The Church we are to unite under so that we may be One and have no divisions among us, what Church have you joined since leaving the Catholic Church?

Mary

I have been to many churches, but I don’t hold to names. I believe the church is a body of believers not restrained by names.

In Revelation 7 churches were addressed. Are these 7 churches of the true church? Are these 7 churches Catholic?

These 7 churches had different doctrines, how could a person follow them all, while not contradicting another?

Let me ask you, do you believe these people are all Catholics?

Revelation 7:9
After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

 

[BreadOfLife]

Ok, so I should follow the Catholic Church?

Should I also participate in gay marriages as the Pope has said…

ROME (AP) — Pope Francis formally approved letting Catholic priests bless same-sex couples, the Vatican announced Monday, a radical shift in policy that aimed at making the church more inclusive while maintaining its strict ban on gay marriage.

This is patently false.
But, thank you for exposing your dishonesty . . .

If you had actually taken the time to read the document, Pope Francis did NOT give permission to bless same-sex couples. The blessing is on the persons as individuals. The prayer of blessing includes a plea for the person to turn away from inappropriate relations and to return to Christ.

Do your homework . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

I have been to many churches, but I don’t hold to names. I believe the church is a body of believers not restrained by names.

In Revelation 7 churches were addressed. Are these 7 churches of the true church? Are these 7 churches Catholic?

These 7 churches had different doctrines, how could a person follow them all, while not contradicting another?

Let me ask you, do you believe these people are all Catholics?

Revelation 7:9
After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Your Protestant Fathers should have taken this as a precautionary warning - but they didn't. They invented different doctrines for themselves and from each other.

The 7 churches in Revelation were ALL part of the ONE Church - in 7 different locations. Today, we call them "parishes" and "dioceses". The fact that they practiced differently is a foreshadowing of Protestantism.

Jesus is NOT divided - and neither should His Body be divided.

 

[Truthnightmare]

This is patently false.
But, thank you for exposing your dishonesty . . .

If you had actually taken the time to read the document, Pope Francis did NOT give permission to bless same-sex couples. The blessing is on the persons as individuals. The prayer of blessing includes a plea for the person to turn away from inappropriate relations and to return to Christ.

Do your homework . . .

Pope Francis did NOT give permission to bless same-sex couples.

 

[Truthnightmare]

Your Protestant Fathers should have taken this as a precautionary warning - but they didn't. They invented different doctrines for themselves and from each other.

The 7 churches in Revelation were ALL part of the ONE Church - in 7 different locations. Today, we call them "parishes" and "dioceses". The fact that they practiced differently is a foreshadowing of Protestantism.

Jesus is NOT divided - and neither should His Body be divided.

You have proved my point.

Let’s see what was said to the Catholic Church..

12 And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write; These things saith he which hath the sharp sword with two edges;

13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.

14 But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication.

15 So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes, which thing I hate.

16 Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.

Why is the Catholic Church being told to repent…..

 

[Truthnightmare]

Your Protestant Fathers should have taken this as a precautionary warning - but they didn't. They invented different doctrines for themselves and from each other.

The 7 churches in Revelation were ALL part of the ONE Church - in 7 different locations. Today, we call them "parishes" and "dioceses". The fact that they practiced differently is a foreshadowing of Protestantism.

Jesus is NOT divided - and neither should His Body be divided.

God loves us all…. Guess Esau didn’t get the message…

Romans 9:13
As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated…

Homosexuality is not a crime? Really?

Ok… it’s an abomination…

And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

Ewwwww and your priests bless this.

 

[BreadOfLife]

You have proved my point.

Let’s see what was said to the Catholic Church..

12 And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write; These things saith he which hath the sharp sword with two edges;

13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.

14 But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication.

15 So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes, which thing I hate.

16 Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.

Why is the Catholic Church being told to repent…..

You're NOT understanding.

There is only ONE Church.
ALL 7 Churches of Revelation were the ONE Catholic Church ini 7 different locations (parishes).

 

[Truthnightmare]

You're NOT understanding.

There is only ONE Church.
ALL 7 Churches of Revelation were the ONE Catholic Church ini 7 different locations (parishes).

Well…. Christ told your one church to repent..

 

[BreadOfLife]

God loves us all…. Guess Esau didn’t get the message…

Romans 9:13
As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated…

Homosexuality is not a crime? Really?

Ok… it’s an abomination…

And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

Ewwwww and your priests bless this.

Consider the source, Einstein . . .

This video is from USA Today - a left-wing, secular news source that makes denigrating ALL things Christian part of their agenda.
Today it's the Catholic Church. Tomorrow, it's YOUR sect . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

Well…. Christ told your one church to repent..

No - He told one of the parishes to repent.

 

[The Learner]

He called him "Satan" - a proper name.

YLT
and he having turned, said to Peter, `Get thee behind me, adversary! thou art a stumbling-block to me, for thou dost not mind the things of God, but the things of men.'

 

[The Learner]

Wrangler,

The main theme of all your bullet points seem to suggest that you have a theory that Peter was no more important than any other Apostle therefore he could not have been the leader of The Church. Here is why you are wrong:

Jesus singled out Peter when He gave him the Keys to the Kingdom of Heaven (Matt. 16:18-19).

Jesus asked Peter and Peter alone to feed His lambs and tend His sheep (John 21:15-19).

Jesus said that He prayed for Peter ALONE to strengthen the others and bring them back to faith (Luke 22:31-32).

Peters called "Protos" (First) in the Gospel (Matt. 10:2)

Peter's name occurs first in all lists of apostles (Matt. 10:2; Mk 3:16; Luke 6:14; Acts 1:13)

Peter is specified by an angel as the leader and representative of the apostles (Mark 16:7)

Peter takes the lead in calling for a successor for Judas (Acts 1:22)

Peter is the first person to speak (and only one recorded) after Pentecost, making him the first Christian to preach the Gospel in the Church (Acts 2:14-36)

Peter works the first miracle of the Church Age, healing a lame man (Acts 3:6-12)

Peter utters the first anathema (Ananias and Sapphira) affirmed by God (Acts 5:2-11)

Peter is the first person after Christ to raise the dead (Acts 9:40)

Cornelius is told by an angel to seek out Peter for instruction in Christianity (Acts 10:1-6)

Peter's name is mentioned in Scripture more often than all the other disciples put together!

Aside: Jesus has the keys

Revelation 1:18
and the living one. I died, and behold I am alive for evermore, and I have the keys of Death and Hades.

Revelation 3:7

To the Church in Philadelphia​

“And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write: ‘The words of the holy one, the true one, who has the key of David, who opens and no one will shut, who shuts and no one opens.

Note: the timeline context of these texts.

 

[The Learner]

@Marymog, sorry to steal your platform. Wrangler asked YOU to explain the question you've been ignoring. I don't mean to preempt any other answer you care to provide.

What was the question? Maybe, the driver of the local Rabbi can answer it.

Joke: The Rabbi's driver said, I have heard your spew so many times. I know it by heart. The Rabbi said, at my next place, you can give give the spew. So, he did, Q&A time came, he handled most of the questions with no problem. Then a difficult one was asked, He said, that is one that even my driver can answer. So, he pointed to his driver in the back of the room to come up front.