There is no strong evidence. Not even weak evidence that Jesus is God. Only if you twist the Scripture and pull the verses out of context can you come up with this kind of nonsense.
Did Jesus claim to be God?
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Jesus Christ is not a lexical definition of logos. The verse does not say "In the beginning was Jesus." The "Word" is not synonymous with Jesus, or even the "Messiah." The word logos in John 1:1 refers to God's creative self-expression... His reason, purpose and plans, especially as they are brought into action.
I like your post. Even more so if you spell it Epistles. We will leave the spelling of Begotten for another day.
Deity you say. I never found that word in Scripture. Trinity neither. There is not one verse that says Jesus is God the Son. Nor has there ever been a teaching on it anywhere in the Bible. The Jews never saw it anywhere in the entire Old Testament nor anyone in the New Testament ever taught it. The Catholics who invented this nonsense have used only about 8 verses that they have to piece together from statements that are scattered all over the New Testament. One should think if such nonsense was true and important that it would have been taught by someone. And it is not. Only in the minds of Catholics who cannot explain it.
John 10:30
There is no reason to take this verse to mean that Christ was saying that he and the Father make up "one God." The phrase was a common one, and even today if someone used it, people would know exactly what they meant... he and his Father are very much alike. When Paul wrote to the Corinthians about his ministry there, he said that he had planted the seed and Apollos had watered it. Then he said, "... he who plants and he who waters are one..." (1 Corinthians 3:8 NKJV). In the Greek texts, the wording of Paul is the same as that in John 10:30, yet no one claims that Paul and Apollos make up "one being." Christ uses the concept of "being one" in other places, and from them one can see that "one purpose" is what is meant. John 11:52 says Jesus was to die to make all God's children "one." In John 17:11, 21 and 22, Jesus prayed to God that his followers would be "one" as he and God were "one." I think it's obvious that Jesus was not praying that all his followers would become one being in "substance" just as he and his Father were one being or "substance." I believe the meaning is clear: Jesus was praying that all his followers be one in purpose just as he and God were one in purpose.
There has never been a teaching on it anywhere in the Bible. The Jews never saw it anywhere in the entire Old Testament nor anyone in the New Testament ever taught it. The Catholics who invented this nonsense have used only about 8 verses that they have to piece together from statements that are scattered all over the New Testament. One should think if such nonsense was true and important that it would have been taught by someone. And it is not. Only in the minds of Catholics who cannot explain it.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Well I await you to list the post you made showing the experts you said you looked at and posted.
And Jesus most certainly claimed divinity for HImself.
And yet people all over the world call this "I and my Father are one" strong evidence.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
You are using a 22nd century understanding of a first century word and you are wrong (as well as your watchtower masters who wrote this)
The Watchtower has lied to you again. Jesus is the only one ever conceived by God directly. The angels and man were created, Jesus was conceived . that is why He is the only begotten son. God knows the difference between begotten and made or created. And the Watchtower which you hold to says Jesus is now MIchaeel the Archangel and was before He came to earth.
cite?
No but Scripture calls them the sons of God 4 times
Yes He is the spitting image of HIs Father. Carries the same nature as the Father who conceived Him which is God the Father.
Hebrews 1:3
Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:
Transliteration
charaktēr (Key)
Pronunciation
khar-ak-tare'
- the instrument used for engraving or carving
- the mark stamped upon that instrument or wrought out on it
- a mark or figure burned in (Lev. 13:28) or stamped on, an impression
- the exact expression (the image) of any person or thing, marked likeness, precise reproduction in every respect, i.e facsimile
Whatever God the Father is made up of- Jesus is as well!
Wrong Again! What this means as is used in its historic and cultural context is that Jesus is heir of all creation!
But yet you do for you listen to the men of the watchtower and accept their opinions over the word of God.
But just a few verses that prove Jesus is just as divine as His Father:
John 1
King James Version
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.Philippians 2:6
Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Isaiah 44:6-7
King James Version
6 Thus saith the Lord the King of Israel, and his redeemer the Lord of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.(The NWT butchers this translation as well as Philippians.
Genesis 1:26-27
King James Version
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
YOu need to read this one above very carefully!
5 But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession,
2 And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles' feet.
3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.
See! Lying to THE Holy Spirit is lying not to a force of God, but God!
2 Corinthians 3:16-18
King James Version
16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
Even better in a Hebrew NT. For it says "Now Yahweh is that Spirit!
Yahweh is the Holy Spirit.
Infinite would be inclusive of “that”, as well.
In terms of the request for restricted & limited communication…
"But will God really dwell on earth? The heavens, even the highest heaven, cannot contain you. How much less this temple I have built!"
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Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Seriously, I gave you a detailed response to this already…..if you did not read it, that is hardly my problem…
Reread my post #308 and it explains Greek grammar…..the reason why the holy spirit is called “he” rather than “it”.
Like God, the holy spirit has no literal gender. There are not three males in heaven who all claim to be God, sitting under one umbrella. No scripture says so.
Again, you are not listening, just like the Jews who stuck with the teachings of the Pharisees in Jesus’ day… they rejected the truth he taught to keep embracing the lies that had been taught to them for centuries before Christ’s human birth. They counted on the majority being right…..big mistake…it’s the devil who has the majority…..Jesus has the enlightened and maligned, “few”. (Matt 7:13-14; John 15:18-21)
The scripture you cited there says nothing about these three being part of a “godhead”. Being baptized “in the name of” means what? Being baptized “in the name of“ Jesus meant accepting what he taught as one of his disciples. Jesus relied on his Father to supply his teachings (John 7:15-17; John 12:49)…he taught nothing of himself but only what his Father told him to teach. The role of the holy spirit was vital in providing the back-up that Jesus and his apostles needed to sway the people to accept that the powerful works they saw, came from Jehovah.
That verse simply means recognizing the role that all three played in a Christian’s spiritual journey to baptism.
Take a look at all the “churches” who claim to be “saints” and you will see nothing but confusion….therefore, God is not in Christendom…..he never was.
Where do you get the idea that any translation of the Holy Scriptures is the work of God? It was Jehovah who inspired the original writings….but translations are the work of men. The KJV is full of errors and bias in its renderings and that is the reason why other translations were produced with a better understanding of those original languages.
As Paul said….1 Cor 14:8-9….
”For if the trumpet sounds an indistinct call, who will get ready for battle? 9 In the same way, unless you with the tongue use speech that is easily understood, how will anyone know what is being said? You will, in fact, be speaking into the air.”
The KJV is a dinosaur in this 21st century…it’s phraseology is confusing to those who do not understand archaic English. Having studied the Bible with many people whose only Bible was the KJV, I always asked if we could read a passage in a number of translations so as to get the correct understanding….it wasn’t long before the dinosaur was put away in favor of a Bible that could actually be read and easily understood.
Since ’your scholars’ are just men with opinions on how words should be translated, there was no “woopsie daisy folks”…..the “woopsie daisy” was in the the mistaken notion that the KJV was an accurate translation to begin with.Or is it, GOD trying to hide behind you scholars of today, to correct HIS written words gradually ?
In other words, as if GOD trying to say, "Whoopsie Daisy folks, I've made translation error, choosing MY prior scholars to translate from Greek to English, sorry."
I can see that your mind and heart are fully closed, and that is your choice…..but when the judgment comes, (as it must soon) you will never be able to tell the judge that no one told you the truth. You just did not want to hear it.
Just a bit of background so you understand where I am coming from….I was raised in Christendom, and my only Bible was the KJV. I have been a student and teacher of the Bible for 50 years. Like the ancient Beroeans, (Acts 17:10-11) I allow the Bible to teach me the truth, not any church.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Ah yes…the “sacred mystery” that they cannot explain, except to say it is unexplainable.
For something to be held as the very foundational doctrine of all of Christendom’s churches, it is strange indeed that there is not a single direct statement declaring that God is “three person in one head” in the entirety of scripture.
All they have are ambiguous verses that are mistranslated to imply or to suggest it.
How can you build a primary doctrine with no scriptural evidence as to its truth, except the church saying it was true?
What did Jesus say?…..
Matt 7:24-27…
”Therefore, everyone who hears these sayings of mine and does them will be like a discreet man who built his house on the rock. 25 And the rain poured down and the floods came and the winds blew and lashed against that house, but it did not cave in, for it had been founded on the rock. 26 Furthermore, everyone hearing these sayings of mine and not doing them will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. 27 And the rain poured down and the floods came and the winds blew and struck against that house,+ and it caved in, and its collapse was great.”
Since this teaching is not based on a single word Jesus said, how on earth did it become the foundation of the entire ”church” system?
I think that Jesus answers this question for us…..in Matt 13:24-30….in the parable of the “wheat and the weeds”. It is interesting that the “weeds” in this parable are believed to be a noxious plant called “bearded darnel“. In the Middle East, it is known as “wheat’s evil twin”. It was sometimes sown deliberately in a farmers crop by an enemy, to destroy his harvest.
When his disciples asked for a more detailed explanation….(Vs 37-43)
Jesus said, “The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man, and the field is the world; and the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the evil ; and the enemy who sowed them is the devil, and the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are angels. So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous shall shine forth in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.“ (NASB)
So we were to expect a counterfeit “church”, full of lies and deception created by the devil, using men who were spiritually “sleeping”……this is Christendom whose roots are well and truly in false religion. A place where Jesus has never set foot. (Matt 7:21-23)
If a house is built on sand with no solid foundation, the storm will demolished it….and the storm is coming….
It seems it would have been clearly stated in the Bible and in the earliest Christian creeds if the doctrine of the Trinity was genuine and central to Christian belief and especially if belief in it was necessary for salvation as many Trinitarians teach. God gave the Scriptures to the Jewish people, and the Jewish religion and worship that comes from that revelation does not contain any reference to or teachings about a triune God. Surely the Jewish people were qualified to read and understand it, but they never saw the doctrine of the Trinity, but rather just the opposite as all throughout their history they fiercely defended the fact that there was only one God.
(Removed for ?s of accuracy)
John 1:1-14
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not [a]comprehend it.
John’s Witness: The True Light
6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 This man came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all through him might believe. 8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. 9 That[b] was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world.10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His [c]own, and His [d]own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the [e]right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
The Word Becomes Flesh
14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
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