Did Jesus claim to be God?

[JohnD]

The new declaration of the FATHER, also did HE at, 'anytime', 'even prior', said to which of the angels, 'with question marks'.

Read the next verse 6, 'when HE brings in the firstbegotten into the world'.

i know you would want to say, HIS firstbegotten through Mary ?

False, for HIS firstbegotten by linage is, 'Adam'. Read, 1 Corinthians chapter 15, about the first man and the second man.

The 'second man' is the Lord from Heaven, for He is the firstbegotten in Heaven, whom GOD brings forth into the world.

The biblical testimony is that Jesus preexisted the incarnation:

• John 8:58 ← I AM
• Micah 5:2← from everlasting
• 1 John 1:2 ← that eternal life
• etc.

all referring to the eternality of God the Word who became Jesus in the incarnation (John 1:1-2, John 1:14) who subsisted in his Spirit as God (Philippians 2:6 ← in the Greek while "morphe theos huparchon" = never ceasing to be God he became a man).

"Firstborn" regarding the incarnation is the status prominence of his incarnation itself. And with his being the firstborn from the dead, he actually is the first to be resurrected from the grave. But he is by no means the first to have died.

I don't know why you brought Mary into the conversation. Or 1 Corinthians 15:45.

Mary was the virgin gestational surrogate for the last Adam (human prototype).

 

[JohnD]

Why in John 3:16, GOD the FATHER declares the Son as, 'HIS 'only begotten Son'.

Hebrews 1:10 states that the Father prepared his body.
Hebrews 1:15 states that the Father became his Father and he his Son at the incarnation.
John 1:14, John 3:16, John 3:18, 1 John 4:9 calls Jesus the only begotten Son of God / of the Father
Because the only thing the Father created is the human body of the Son

God the Word (who was with the Father John 1:1-2 / 1 John 1:1-2) is the lone Creator of all things created in the beginning (John 1:3, Colossians 1:16, Isaiah 44:24, Genesis 1:1). Therefore Adam (the first Adam) was the son of God the Word (Luke 3:38).

Jesus (preincarnate) created Adam. The Father created the body of Jesus.

'By Him', meaning, 'GOD by Him', as liken unto Genesis 1:26Colossians 1:16 (KJV)

Isaiah 44:24 states that YHVH the LORD acted alone by himself in creation. Jesus claimed to be the I AM (John 8:58) referring back to Exodus 3:13-15 defining the name YHVH the LORD. Genesis 1:1 declared the Creator was God.

If He is not the Son pre-incarnate itself, how come He gets to create all things.

In Genesis 1:26, 'in our image', isn't He in the beginning itself the Son who is in the image of the invisible FATHER ?

In Genesis 1:26 God the Word (who is established in the above quoted scriptures as the lone Creator of all things created in the beginning) spoke of creating the first human prototype (Adam) in the likeness of the image of God (the last Adam / human prototype) which the Father would create some 4,000 years later. "Our image" means the Word is just as much God as is the Father (Colossians 1:15).

Jesus is both the invisible God in his Spirit and the last human prototype (Adam) image of the invisible God.

 

[Fred J]

The Holy Spirit is everywhere, even in the Son. The Father is the Holy Spirit in heaven
and at the same time on earth in the Son.

Fred, I would suggest you forsake your own understanding
as soon as possible, before it misleads you again.

So, now you're clever to judge and tell others what to do ?

 

[Fred J]

The Holy Spirit is everywhere, even in the Son. The Father is the Holy Spirit in heaven
and at the same time on earth in the Son.

You run with this testimony of yours, and find yourself in a ditch one day, as the blind leads the blind.

 

[Fred J]

Hebrews 1:10 states that the Father prepared his body.
Hebrews 1:15 states that the Father became his Father and he his Son at the incarnation.
John 1:14, John 3:16, John 3:18, 1 John 4:9 calls Jesus the only begotten Son of God / of the Father
Because the only thing the Father created is the human body of the Son

God the Word (who was with the Father John 1:1-2 / 1 John 1:1-2) is the lone Creator of all things created in the beginning (John 1:3, Colossians 1:16, Isaiah 44:24, Genesis 1:1). Therefore Adam (the first Adam) was the son of God the Word (Luke 3:38).

Jesus (preincarnate) created Adam. The Father created the body of Jesus.



Isaiah 44:24 states that YHVH the LORD acted alone by himself in creation. Jesus claimed to be the I AM (John 8:58) referring back to Exodus 3:13-15 defining the name YHVH the LORD. Genesis 1:1 declared the Creator was God.



In Genesis 1:26 God the Word (who is established in the above quoted scriptures as the lone Creator of all things created in the beginning) spoke of creating the first human prototype (Adam) in the likeness of the image of God (the last Adam / human prototype) which the Father would create some 4,000 years later. "Our image" means the Word is just as much God as is the Father (Colossians 1:15).

Jesus is both the invisible God in his Spirit and the last human prototype (Adam) image of the invisible God.

Ok, you run with that but am on another race, no thank you.

 

[TonyChanYT]

it does seem rather odd to me that such a fundamental doctrine would not be clearly spelled out.

See Is Jesus God and follow up there

 

[Spyder]

As a former ordained minister, were you ever made aware of what the word “worship” can mean in a broader sense, scripturally?......as used in the Hebrew and Greek it has two definitions.....this word can denote worship, but can also be applied to reverent acts other than worship. However, the context determines in what way the respective words are to be understood.

The Greek word pro·sky·neʹo corresponds closely to the Hebrew term hish·ta·chawahʹ in expressing the thought of obeisance and, at times, worship. The term pro·sky·neʹo is used in connection with a slave’s doing obeisance to a king (Matt 18:26) as well as the act Satan stipulated when he offered Jesus all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. (Matt 4:8-9) Had he done obeisance to the Devil, Jesus would thereby have signified submission to Satan and made himself the Devil’s servant.

So “pro·sky·neʹo” can be rendered either “worship” when it is directed to God, or “obeisance” when directed to a human being. It basically denotes a bowing down to someone in respectful honor.....in Bible times it was often directed to fellow humans as a greeting.....or it can mean rendering to God the worship he requires of his servants. Not necessarily bowing down physically, but always approaching God with a humble spirit in reverence and honor.

To a Samaritan woman Christ Jesus said: “The hour is coming when neither in this mountain [Gerizim] nor in Jerusalem will you people worship the Father. You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know . . . Nevertheless, the hour is coming, and it is now, when the true worshipers will worship the Father with spirit and truth, for, indeed, the Father is looking for suchlike ones to worship him. God is a Spirit, and those worshiping him must worship with spirit and truth.” (John 4:21-24)

The words of Jesus clearly showed that true worship would not depend upon the presence or use of visible things or a specific geographical location. Instead of relying on sight or touch, the true worshiper exercises faith and, regardless of the place or things about him, maintains a worshipful attitude. Thus he worships, not with the aid of something that he can see or touch, but with spirit. Since he has the truth as revealed by God, his worship is in agreement with that truth. Having become acquainted with God through the Bible and evidence of the operation of God’s spirit in his life, the person who worships with spirit and truth definitely “knows” who or what he is worshiping. (John 17:3)

What was given to Jesus the man therefore, was obeisance, not worship, because he is not and never was, God in the flesh. He had to be 100% mortal human to give his life as a ransom for mankind. An immortal God cannot die.

Jesus rendered “worship” to his God, but would have recoiled at receiving worship himself. “Obeisance” was not rejected however, because he was the divine “son of God” and deserving of the respect given his unique position.

What are your thoughts?

There you go again, making me think! I do find joy in your posts, as I love studying in hopes of having better understanding. You always make good points regarding scripture.

The answer is "YES," I am aware of the differences in worship, but you are the first I know to explain it that way. As you caused me to have to go look at scripture again (I enjoy that.), I'd like to point out a few passages that should be considered. First, we know that Yeshua was born as the Son of God, and that He came with multiple purposes as revealed in His High Priestly Prayer and many Old Testament prophets revealed. Yes, He was a man, but now He is a spirit. God gave Him authority on earth during His ministry and was given authority in Heaven and on Earth at His ascension. Perhaps we can see two different conditions based on His earthly work and now His heavenly work.

On Earth, Yeshua said:

Lk 6:46 “Why do you call me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do what I tell you?

Jn 14:15 “If you love me, you will keep my commandments.

Jn 4:22–24 But the hour is coming, and is now here, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father is seeking such people to worship him. God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.”

That being said, I find no passages where Yeshua asked for worship - only obedience.

There are passages that speak of those who worshipped him on Earth:

Mt 2:10–11 When they saw the star, they rejoiced exceedingly with great joy. And going into the house, they saw the child with Mary his mother, and they fell down and worshiped him (using prosekynēsan}

Mt 14:30–33 Jesus immediately reached out his hand and took hold of him, saying to him, “O you of little faith, why did you doubt?” And when they got into the boat, the wind ceased. And those in the boat worshiped him, saying, “Truly you are the Son of God.” (again prosekynēsan)

The words change when Paul spoke of worship:

Ro 12:1 I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship. (using latreian: to perform the sacred services (see ἐπιτελέω, 1), spoken of the priests, Hebrews 9:6; universally, of any worship of God, ἡ λογικη λατρεία, Romans 12:1)

Then we have the after-ascension times:

Php 2:8–11 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Seems here that the bowing for Yeshua is for the glory of the Father.

The most striking reference in the most confusing book, we find:

Re 5:6–12 And between the throne and the four living creatures and among the elders I saw a Lamb standing, as though it had been slain, with seven horns and with seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth. And he went and took the scroll from the right hand of him who was seated on the throne. And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. And they sang a new song, saying, “Worthy are you to take the scroll and to open its seals, for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God from every tribe and language and people and nation, and you have made them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they shall reign on the earth.” Then I looked, and I heard around the throne and the living creatures and the elders the voice of many angels, numbering myriads of myriads and thousands of thousands, saying with a loud voice, “Worthy is the Lamb who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing!”

Does this indicate "worship?" It seems to me that it does.

When I say worthy to be praised, after being confined to English as I have learned it; there is wiggle room. I do NOT worship Yeshua as God because He is not. I have not replaced Yahweh with His Son.

 

[lforrest]

[

I sinned before the Spirit possessed me. I repented and stopped committing that sin
after the Spirit entered into me.

That is how Jesus saves you from your sins.
By His Spirit you stop committing them.

Public service announcement:

This is the persistent false prophet who claims to hear from God, but he is actually proud to be possessed by seven or more evil spirits. Nevermind the documented fact that they have been proven wrong in the past.

 

[Peterlag]

I am quoting God's Word. God's Word makes it a fact.

Jesus is God the Word incarnate (John 1:1-2, John 1:14 / Colossians 2:9 / John 1:3, Colossians 1:16, Isaiah 44:24, Genesis 1:1).

I see the same Scriptures you quote differently and I too believe I'm reading God's Word. For an example when you look at John 1:1 you see Jesus is God. When I look at it I see this...

Jesus Christ is not a lexical definition of logos. The verse does not say "In the beginning was Jesus." The "Word" is not synonymous with Jesus, or even the "Messiah." The word logos in John 1:1 refers to God's creative self-expression... His reason, purpose and plans, especially as they are brought into action. It refers to God's self-expression or communication of Himself. This has come to pass through His creation and especially the heavens. It has come through the spoken word of the prophets and through Scripture. Most notably it has come into being through His Son. The logos is the expression of God and is His communication of Himself just as a "word" is an outward expression of a person's thoughts. This outward expression of God has now occurred through His Son and thus it's perfectly understandable why Jesus is called the "Word." Jesus is an outward expression of God's reason, wisdom, purpose and plan. For the same reason we call revelation "a word from God" and the Bible "the Word of God."

If we understand that the logos is God's expression... His plan, purpose, reason and wisdom. Then it is clear they were with Him "in the beginning." Scripture says God's wisdom was "from the beginning" and it was common in Hebrew writing to personify a concept such as wisdom. The fact that the logos "became" flesh shows it did not exist that way before. There is no pre-existence for Jesus in this verse other than his figurative "existence" as the plan, purpose or wisdom of God for the salvation of man. The same is true with the "word" in writing. It had no literal pre-existence as a "spirit-book" somehow in eternity past, but came into being as God gave the revelation to people and they wrote it down.

 

[Rich R]

See Is Jesus God and follow up there

John 9:5 has been translated basically two different ways.

​

Rom 9:5 (KJV),

Whose [are] the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ [came], who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.​

​

KJV and others make, "God blessed for ever" a separate doxology to God.

Punctuation is key, Rotherham's Emphasized Bible translation:

"Whose are the fathers, and of whom is the Christ––according to the flesh––he who is over all, God, blessed unto the ages."​

The Scriptutures (ISR) With Footnotes:

"whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Messiah according to the flesh, who is over all, Elohim-blessed forever."​

Then there are others, including the one you quoted, that do appear to say Jesus is God.

Rom 9:5,

Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them proceeds the human descent of Christ, who is God over all, forever worthy of praise! Amen.​

​

What are we to think about such different translations? Do we just accept the ones that fit with our belief while outright rejecting the others without further consideration? Is our choice based solely on what we already believe?

All of these interpretations were done by people who are equally well versed in the Greek language. I'm not an expert in Greek (just 2 years at Emory University), but I do know enough to see that there is a certain amount of ambiguity in the Greek of Romans 9:5. Nonetheless, I think the fact that there is such a wide disparity in translations among others much more versed in Greek than myself also indicates that the original text is somewhat unclear.

How do we solve the issue? Well, a good starting point is to recognize two points:

1. Romans 9:5 is not the only verse in the Bible
2. All the other verses must fit with Romans 9:5. God can not contradict Himself

Which translation of Romans 9:5 do you see as fitting with the following:

1Cor 8:6,

But to us [there is but] one God, the Father, of whom [are] all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom [are] all things, and we by him.​

John 17:3,

And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.​

​

I've never heard anyone claim Jesus is the Father. Nor have I seen that anyone sent God anywhere.

John 20:17,

Jesus saith to her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended unto the Father: but go unto my brethren, and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.​

​

Jesus had a God, the very same God as Mary Magdalene. So Jesus, being God, means God had a God! Who might that be? But that's not the only verse that says God (assuming Jesus is God) has a God. You can find several more. Here's just one:

Eph 1:3,

Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ:​

​

Was Jesus tempted? Sure he was. Can God be tempted? The scriptures say no. I see no need to quote the verses on that, I'm quite sure you know the ones to which I am referring.

There are many other clear verses that would seem to be at odds with the translation of Romans 9:5 you quoted. As far as I can tell, none of those clear verses are at odds with the KJV translation, and those like the KJV.

So there is some of the evidence, but it should,or at least could, be enough to reach a verdict as to which translation is closer to the truth. I'm not saying Jesus is not God. I'm just pointing out a few verses.

The main thing I'm trying to say is that all verses must either say Jesus is God or that he is God's son. Accepting the normal meaning of words and language, would preclude a son from also being his own father. I know that with God all things are possible, but that verse has a context. Taken out of context, that verse can be used to justify any idea whatsoever that someone can conjure up. A slippery slope if there ever was a slippery slope!

 

[TonyChanYT]

John 9:5 has been translated basically two different ways.

​

Rom 9:5 (KJV),

Whose [are] the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ [came], who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.​

​

KJV and others make, "God blessed for ever" a separate doxology to God.

Punctuation is key, Rotherham's Emphasized Bible translation:

"Whose are the fathers, and of whom is the Christ––according to the flesh––he who is over all, God, blessed unto the ages."​

The Scriptutures (ISR) With Footnotes:

"whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Messiah according to the flesh, who is over all, Elohim-blessed forever."​

Then there are others, including the one you quoted, that do appear to say Jesus is God.

Rom 9:5,

Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them proceeds the human descent of Christ, who is God over all, forever worthy of praise! Amen.​

​

What are we to think about such different translations? Do we just accept the ones that fit with our belief while outright rejecting the others without further consideration? Is our choice based solely on what we already believe?

All of these interpretations were done by people who are equally well versed in the Greek language. I'm not an expert in Greek (just 2 years at Emory University), but I do know enough to see that there is a certain amount of ambiguity in the Greek of Romans 9:5. Nonetheless, I think the fact that there is such a wide disparity in translations among others much more versed in Greek than myself also indicates that the original text is somewhat unclear.

How do we solve the issue? Well, a good starting point is to recognize two points:

1. Romans 9:5 is not the only verse in the Bible
2. All the other verses must fit with Romans 9:5. God can not contradict Himself

Which translation of Romans 9:5 do you see as fitting with the following:

1Cor 8:6,

But to us [there is but] one God, the Father, of whom [are] all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom [are] all things, and we by him.​

John 17:3,

And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.​

​

I've never heard anyone claim Jesus is the Father. Nor have I seen that anyone sent God anywhere.

John 20:17,

Jesus saith to her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended unto the Father: but go unto my brethren, and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.​

​

Jesus had a God, the very same God as Mary Magdalene. So Jesus, being God, means God had a God! Who might that be? But that's not the only verse that says God (assuming Jesus is God) has a God. You can find several more. Here's just one:

Eph 1:3,

Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ:​

​

Was Jesus tempted? Sure he was. Can God be tempted? The scriptures say no. I see no need to quote the verses on that, I'm quite sure you know the ones to which I am referring.

There are many other clear verses that would seem to be at odds with the translation of Romans 9:5 you quoted. As far as I can tell, none of those clear verses are at odds with the KJV translation, and those like the KJV.

So there is some of the evidence, but it should,or at least could, be enough to reach a verdict as to which translation is closer to the truth. I'm not saying Jesus is not God. I'm just pointing out a few verses.

The main thing I'm trying to say is that all verses must either say Jesus is God or that he is God's son. Accepting the normal meaning of words and language, would preclude a son from also being his own father. I know that with God all things are possible, but that verse has a context. Taken out of context, that verse can be used to justify any idea whatsoever that someone can conjure up. A slippery slope if there ever was a slippery slope!

Let proposition P1 = Jesus is God.

True?

 

[Rich R]

Let proposition P1 = Jesus is God.

True?

Sorry, but I'm not sure what P1 is.

 

[lforrest]

There is no documented evidence. You are lying. If not then produce it to prove your accusation.
And if they being as you claim, then surely the spirit within you can defeat them in a bible debate.
So how about it , can you walk your talk or you just all talk and no walk?
By the way, God is watching you tell these lies.

We can set up the debate right here on this forum.

We say you will cut and run. We want God to see you
hide from the truth.

Post in thread 'NO SALVATION Outside The DOCTRINE of CHRIST' NO SALVATION Outside The DOCTRINE of CHRIST

Your own mouth condemns you today as it will on the day of the Lord.

 

[Aunty Jane]

@Spyder thank you for your beautiful response….it’s so good when you see the “scales have fallen” from the eyes of others, just as they did for my own. When I studied all the doctrines of Christendom and found that none had any connection with the Bible other than what was suggested or woven skillfully into ambiguous verses, it prompted me to view all “Christian” teaching from that perspective. We don’t open our own eyes, Yahweh does that…and invites us into his family of worshippers.(John 6:44, 65)

The most striking reference in the most confusing book, we find:

Re 5:6–12 And between the throne and the four living creatures and among the elders I saw a Lamb standing, as though it had been slain, with seven horns and with seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth. And he went and took the scroll from the right hand of him who was seated on the throne. And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. And they sang a new song, saying, “Worthy are you to take the scroll and to open its seals, for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God from every tribe and language and people and nation, and you have made them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they shall reign on the earth.” Then I looked, and I heard around the throne and the living creatures and the elders the voice of many angels, numbering myriads of myriads and thousands of thousands, saying with a loud voice, “Worthy is the Lamb who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing!”

Does this indicate "worship?" It seems to me that it does.

Reading through, it indicates “obeisance” to me.
Where is the Lamb? He is standing between the throne (where God is sitting) and the “four living creatures” and he is “among the elders”. He was found to be the only one worthy to open the scrolls and make known their contents.
The “falling down before the Lamb” is respectful and due “obeisance” for all that Jesus is, and was…..it cannot be worship, which can only be given to Yahweh.

“At Revelation 1:4 “the seven spirits” of God are mentioned as before his throne, and thereafter seven messages are given, each concluding with an admonition to “hear what the spirit says to the congregations.” (Re 2:7, 11,17, 29; 3:6, 13, 22) These messages contain heart-searching pronouncements of judgment and promises of reward for faithfulness. God’s Son is shown as having these “seven spirits of God” (Re 3:1); and they are spoken of as being “seven lamps of fire” (Re 4:5), and also as seven eyes of the lamb that is slaughtered, “which eyes mean the seven spirits of God that have been sent forth into the whole earth.” (Re 5:6) Seven being used as representative of completeness in other prophetic texts (see NUMBER, NUMERAL), it appears that these seven spirits symbolize the full active capacity of observation, discernment, or detection of the glorified Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God, enabling him to inspect all the earth.

God’s Word is the spirit’s “sword” (Eph 6:17), revealing what a person really is, exposing hidden qualities or heart attitudes and causing him either to soften his heart and conform to God’s will expressed by that Word or to harden his heart in rebellion. (Compare Heb 4:11-13; Isa 6:9, 10; 66:2, 5.)” (Insight on the Scriptures. WTBTS)

This is what I believe we see here on these forums…..the hardening or the softening of hearts to God’s truth.

When I say worthy to be praised, after being confined to English as I have learned it; there is wiggle room. I do NOT worship Yeshua as God because He is not. I have not replaced Yahweh with His Son.

Exactly…..we don’t have to see “obeisance” as “worship”, such is given to our only Sovereign, but the respectful honor due to God’s only begotten son, to whom we owe our everlasting life to come. What he went through for us was the ultimate act of love on the part of our God who sent him, and the Christ who willingly volunteered for that difficult mission.

To give “worship” to one who is not Yahweh, is a clear breach of the first Commandment. (Exodus 20:3)
Jesus would never have tolerated worship ever being given to himself. (Luke 4:8)

 

[JunChosen]

Did Jesus claim to be God?​

MOST CERTAINLY!! Jesus made many direct and indirect stunning claims that He is God, in which some have already been written in this thread.

My two cents worth....

Isaiah 42:8 reads:
I [am] the LORD: that [is] my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

And, yet Jesus in His prayer to the Father, we read in John 17:5:
And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Isaiah 43:11 reads:
I, [even] I, [am] the LORD; and beside me [there is] no savior.

This means Jesus IS God, because we read of Him as the Savior of the world (John 4:42).

To God Be The Glory

 

[Peterlag]

Did Jesus claim to be God?​

MOST CERTAINLY!! Jesus made many direct and indirect stunning claims that He is God, in which some have already been written in this thread.

My two cents worth....

Isaiah 42:8 reads:
I [am] the LORD: that [is] my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

And, yet Jesus in His prayer to the Father, we read in John 17:5:
And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Isaiah 43:11 reads:
I, [even] I, [am] the LORD; and beside me [there is] no savior.

This means Jesus IS God, because we read of Him as the Savior of the world (John 4:42).

To God Be The Glory

There has never been a teaching on it anywhere in the Bible. The Jews never saw it anywhere in the entire Old Testament nor anyone in the New Testament ever taught it. The Catholics who invented this nonsense have used only about 8 verses that they have to piece together from statements that are scattered all over the New Testament. One should think if such nonsense was true and important that it would have been taught by someone. And it is not. Only in the minds of Catholics who cannot explain it.

 

[Truthnightmare]

Who? Jesus?!

Then please tell us, exactly Who was Jesus praying to, when He said, “My God, my God, why have You forsaken me?”
Himself?

We see….

Matt 27:46
46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? (KJV)
Ps 22:1
1 My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring? (KJV)​

Psalm 22 is the prophecy of Jesus Christ. Jesus fulfilled the prophecy. Jesus was teaching from the cross that He was the One which was prophesied to come.​

John 10:30-33
30 I and my Father are one.
31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. KJV

1 John 5:7
7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. KJV

Titus 2:13
13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; KJV

1 Tim 3:16
16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. KJV

John 1:1-14
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
...(continued) ...
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. KJV

​

 

[Truthnightmare]

Who? Jesus?!

Then please tell us, exactly Who was Jesus praying to, when He said, “My God, my God, why have You forsaken me?”
Himself?

In John 17, again, Who was Jesus praying to? It was His Father; and in vs.3, Jesus referred to his Father as “the only True God”, then separately mentioned himself as the one whom God “sent.”

Why do you go beyond that?

Is Paul wrong when he wrote at 1 Corinthians 8:5,6 that “there is to us one God, the Father”?

At John 4:23,24, Jesus said “the true worshippers will worship the Father.”

As a Christian who tries to follow Jesus, I’ll stick with Who Jesus worshipped.

That way, I know I’ll be adhering to the First of the 10 Commandments.
- Exodus 20


Regarding the “I AM” claim…
Did the Jews really think Jesus was saying he was God by saying ego eimi, at John 8:58?

No…but how do we know they didn’t think that?

Because at Jesus’ Sanhedrin trial which all 4 gospels record, those Jews never accuse Jesus of saying He was God! Not once! And they were even looking for false witnesses, to accuse Him. They would have used that statement in a heartbeat if it were true.

John 10:30-33
30 I and my Father are one.
31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. (KJV)

 

[The Learner]

Nothing about God's identity can be a "divine mystery," because if God's will is for you to know Him and His Son in order to be saved, it would be futile to even try to save yourself because you cannot know something that would be an incomprehensible mystery. .. and God would be cruel to demand in order to have eternal life to know something that He Himself has left as indecipherable.

John 17:3 This means everlasting life, their coming to know you, the only true God, and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ.

1 Tim. 2:3 This is fine and acceptable in the sight of our Savior, God, 4 whose will is that all sorts of people should be saved and come to an accurate knowledge of truth.

Do you beleive you are indwelt by Jesus? Spirit of Christ?

 

[The Learner]

Will the above do? How many propositional statement are needed?

Do you beleive you are indwelt by Jesus? Spirit of Christ?