What is Mystery Babylon?

[Episkopos]

Jesus said they were clean through the word spoken to them. Same as us.

Assumptions and presumptions. You are not in their shoes. You can't take what is written in the bible in a favourable way for yourself. That's the way of the pretender. And pretenders will be found out.

But clean by association is good too I think, depending on how one means it.....we could say we are also clean by association with the Spirit who lives in us. It is His presence that sanctifies us.

Yes. And the righteous are sanctified as they serve the saints. Read Matt. 25 of the non-believers who cared for disciples without knowing Jesus. Jesus' brethren are the saints.

We still need to have our feet washed periodically even though we have been sanctified and had the bath. Washing of the feet is associated with the Lord's supper....I will try to share what I believe that is showing in a day or two, Lord willing. Yes, I think if one is walking in the Spirit 24/7/365 they might not need to have their feet washed. But until/unless that is the case, washing of our feet is part of how we are getting there.

It depends where you are. Before one only needs their feet washed they need to be cleansed from ALL unrighteousness...and that includes repentance from iniquity (Mixing human ideas with holiness...or as it is called "progressive sanctification"). The oil does not magically appear in the lamps....we must DILIGENTLY seek the Lord to be filled with His Spirit. We are to STRIVE to enter into Christ. This is unheard of among many reformation types.

We are to repent from foolish human doctrines and turn to God to follow HIS WAYS.

 

[amigo de christo]

Bible says Jesus LEARNED obedience by the things which He suffered....and then was perfected by His death. And we are to follow in His footsteps. I can bring a bunch of scriptures to this effect but have to go out today. From what I can see I think we need to focus on likewise obeying and following the Lord and He will do what is needed..........I can't speak to your situation but seeking an "experience" doesn't always bode well in my observation. There's a difference between seeking the Lord and His will and seeking experiences.

The question is does one love the pure and holy doctrine of the LORD .
You see many love and chase after an experience , and while we all do seek things of the LORD , these often
hate certain biblical doctrine .
While it is not wrong to seek the LORD for the gifts , or for a dream or vision
why is it that many hate doctrine . You see that is a huge sign .
While miracles are real and while the gifts are real
Many love not the truth in doctrine .
And me thinks many have forgotten something .
HOW IS it that men , that even the Fp decieveth
By means of miracles and etc . OH YEAH these spirits can work miracles and experiences too .
And so the key is , TO KNOW the LORD THY GOD , TO KNOW HIS CHRIST
and to ensure its HE we be following , HIS SPIRIT we be a hearing from
MEN BESS GET IN THAT BIBLE and learn it and be TESTING THE SPIRITS .
MANY DO NOT THIS but rather sit under those who know not doctrine , know not GOD
but can give them plenty of experiences which they will believe come FROM GOD when in truth IT AINT COMING FROM GOD .
Those who hate doctrine and try and twist , omit , pass over doctrine for that which men twists
BE IN TOTAL GRAVE DANGER o HELL FIRE .
And i notice many , some even here , WHO often talk of experiences , EVEN DENYING THE TRUE GOSPEL OF CHRIST
and yet believing they are hearing HIGHER SPRIITUAL LEARNING by what they experience .
But there so called spiritual higher learning , IT AINT COMING FROM GOD , IT AINT COMING from THE SPIRIT
its of another and it works through men of the flesh to decieve and to allure through the lusts of the flesh
those who walk after the flesh . NOT LOOKING GOOD sister . many are under it already and know not
that it is coming from another who cometh in his own name to decieve the world , to gather the world to be as one .

 

[Lizbeth]

Our death is at the cross....to be raised into eternal life (which is a kind of life). Jesus learned human righteousness....as we also do through our sufferings. Those who have suffered a lot tend to be more merciful towards others..so then the love your neighbour commandment becomes easier.

Jesus did NOT learn the righteousness of God. This should clue you in....perhaps...to the nature of the walk in both righteousness AND holiness. Jesus was ALWAYS holy. But He did temporal things in order to fulfill ALL righteousness.

Of course He was always without sin.....but the point is that His life was the example and pattern that we are to follow......He humbled Himself and set the example for us even though He didn't need it Himself (like when He was baptized).......it took the suffering over the course of His life to prepare and sanctify Him until it culminated and was finished with His death at the cross and He crossed over into resurrection life. What I see in scripture all over the place is a journey and a progression...until the end of it and the cord is finally broken.

 

[Lizbeth]

It depends where you are. Before one only needs their feet washed they need to be cleansed from ALL unrighteousness...and that includes repentance from iniquity (Mixing human ideas with holiness...or as it is called "progressive sanctification"). The oil does not magically appear in the lamps....we must DILIGENTLY seek the Lord to be filled with His Spirit. We are to STRIVE to enter into Christ. This is unheard of among many reformation types.

Washing of feet and Lord's supper....

(Notice how the passage below is speaking to sacrifices and the eating of them.

1 Cor 10:14-22

Wherefore, my dearly beloved, flee from idolatry.
I speak as to wise men; judge ye what I say.
The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?
For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread.
Behold Israel after the flesh: are not they which eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar?

What say I then? that the idol is any thing, or that which is offered in sacrifice to idols is any thing?
But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils.
Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.
Do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? are we stronger than he?



The Jews who made regular sacrifices and ate of them in order to have the sacrifice applied to them - would have easily understood that the Lord’s supper was likewise speaking of a sacrifice for sins. Jesus said except we eat His body and drink His blood we would have no life in us. In partaking of the Lord’s supper we make sacrifice for our sins….or rather we are refreshing His sacrifice on the cross to us for sins we have sinned since coming to faith. And that is why we must examine ourselves before partaking of the body and blood…..like the Israelites look for leaven to sweep it out of the house and get rid of it before Passover, we must do likewise with temple before offering and eating the body and blood of Christ.….see if there be any sin that we need to repent of and bring it to the cross and under the blood so to speak. In this way we are allowing (and asking) Jesus to wash our feet that will have become soiled in some way as we walked along….with the washing of the water of the Word (gospel and instruction of the word of God).

Washing one another’s feet I believe speaks to giving one another the bread and wine…..how they passed it around one to another, drinking of the same cup and eating of the same loaf, everyone acknowledging their NEED of it together in their common humanity - and also speaks to the kind of humility with which the apostles were being taught to serve and minister to the body of Christ. Servants who washed the filthy sandaled feet of arriving houseguests were usually the lowest ranking servants and it was no doubt not a coveted job.

1Co 11:23-31

For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:
And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.
After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.
For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.
Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.
For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.

For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.
For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.



Jhn 13:8

Peter saith unto him, Thou shalt never wash my feet. Jesus answered him, If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me.

……is an echo of this:

John 6:53-58

Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.


(Communion is more than just symbolic…..there is power in it to cleanse and wash us periodically as we walk along because “we offend in many ways all” as we go along……..it is a way to re-member and re-fresh Jesus’ sacrifice to us so to speak – because we NEED to. But it is not transubstantiation either as Catholics think…..but rather as the Lord was gracious to teach me it is a sacrifice by PROXY. God accepting the bread and wine AS IF it were the body and blood of Christ. We have to know that if there is power in it to make some weak and sickly there is power in it also to cleanse and sanctify us as we have need….as long as we examine ourselves before partaking and acknowledge that we do have need.)


Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

The above speaks to His original sacrifice and death, as well as I believe it is alluding to our partaking of it again and again in re-membrance of it. I think the lack of understanding of what the Lord's supper means is the reason why it isn’t always taken as seriously as it needs to be...it's not a mere ritual.

(The Jews knew Jesus was talking about sacrifice for sins…that is why many were offended because they thought it meant a human sacrifice per se which was forbidden by Law.)

So….all this tells me that the Lord’s supper and “washing of feet” SANCTIFIES, ie cleanses, makes holy, the child of God……until He comes. We have been sanctified……but we are also continually being sanctified……..as well as that I believe we will be further sanctified.

 

[Episkopos]

Washing of feet and Lord's supper....

(Notice how the passage below is speaking to sacrifices and the eating of them.

1 Cor 10:14-22

Wherefore, my dearly beloved, flee from idolatry.
I speak as to wise men; judge ye what I say.
The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?
For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread.
Behold Israel after the flesh: are not they which eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar?

What say I then? that the idol is any thing, or that which is offered in sacrifice to idols is any thing?
But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils.
Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.
Do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? are we stronger than he?



The Jews who made regular sacrifices and ate of them in order to have the sacrifice applied to them - would have easily understood that the Lord’s supper was likewise speaking of a sacrifice for sins. Jesus said except we eat His body and drink His blood we would have no life in us. In partaking of the Lord’s supper we make sacrifice for our sins….or rather we are refreshing His sacrifice on the cross to us for sins we have sinned since coming to faith. And that is why we must examine ourselves before partaking of the body and blood…..like the Israelites look for leaven to sweep it out of the house and get rid of it before Passover, we must do likewise with temple before offering and eating the body and blood of Christ.….see if there be any sin that we need to repent of and bring it to the cross and under the blood so to speak. In this way we are allowing (and asking) Jesus to wash our feet that will have become soiled in some way as we walked along….with the washing of the water of the Word (gospel and instruction of the word of God).

Washing one another’s feet I believe speaks to giving one another the bread and wine…..how they passed it around one to another, drinking of the same cup and eating of the same loaf, everyone acknowledging their NEED of it together in their common humanity - and also speaks to the kind of humility with which the apostles were being taught to serve and minister to the body of Christ. Servants who washed the filthy sandaled feet of arriving houseguests were usually the lowest ranking servants and it was no doubt not a coveted job.

1Co 11:23-31

For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:
And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.
After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.
For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.
Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.
For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.

For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.
For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.



Jhn 13:8

Peter saith unto him, Thou shalt never wash my feet. Jesus answered him, If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me.

……is an echo of this:

John 6:53-58

Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.


(Communion is more than just symbolic…..there is power in it to cleanse and wash us periodically as we walk along because “we offend in many ways all” as we go along……..it is a way to re-member and re-fresh Jesus’ sacrifice to us so to speak – because we NEED to. But it is not transubstantiation either as Catholics think…..but rather as the Lord was gracious to teach me it is a sacrifice by PROXY. God accepting the bread and wine AS IF it were the body and blood of Christ. We have to know that if there is power in it to make some weak and sickly there is power in it also to cleanse and sanctify us as we have need….as long as we examine ourselves before partaking and acknowledge that we do have need.)


Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

The above speaks to His original sacrifice and death, as well as I believe it is alluding to our partaking of it again and again in re-membrance of it. I think the lack of understanding of what the Lord's supper means is the reason why it isn’t always taken as seriously as it needs to be...it's not a mere ritual.

(The Jews knew Jesus was talking about sacrifice for sins…that is why many were offended because they thought it meant a human sacrifice per se which was forbidden by Law.)

So….all this tells me that the Lord’s supper and “washing of feet” SANCTIFIES, ie cleanses, makes holy, the child of God……until He comes. We have been sanctified……but we are also continually being sanctified……..as well as that I believe we will be further sanctified.

All made up ideology. One is either holy or not. And H2O doe not sanctify a person. That is part of the fables told by pretenders.

And you need to learn what eating the flesh and drinking the blood of Jesus is.

Eating His flesh is DOING His word...man shall not live by bread alone.

And drinking His blood is walking in His resurrection life. The living blood...life-giving. Only those who have known the higher walk IN Holiness...IN Christ...have any idea what it means to walk in His eternal life.

Otherwise it's all just symbology...or a philosophy based on a religious enthusiasm.

 

[Episkopos]

Of course He was always without sin.....but the point is that His life was the example and pattern that we are to follow......He humbled Himself and set the example for us even though He didn't need it Himself (like when He was baptized).......it took the suffering over the course of His life to prepare and sanctify Him until it culminated and was finished with His death at the cross and He crossed over into resurrection life. What I see in scripture all over the place is a journey and a progression...until the end of it and the cord is finally broken.

We walk it out backward. We start with His end...being crucified...and then suffer His reproach as we follow Him among so many pretenders.

Just as Jesus had to learn human righteousness...we have to learn what God's righteousness is.

Jesus came to fulfill ALL righteousness (at both levels) so that we could follow Him into ALL righteousness (the righteousness of saints)

 

[Lizbeth]

We walk it out backward. We start with His end...being crucified...and then suffer His reproach as we follow Him among so many pretenders.

Just as Jesus had to learn human righteousness...we have to learn what God's righteousness is.

Jesus came to fulfill ALL righteousness (at both levels) so that we could follow Him into ALL righteousness (the righteousness of saints)

Doesn't sound like you allow that there's much of the new testament at all that was written for who are "only" born again of His Spirit but are not yet perfect.

You are calling pretenders many who are on the Way, carrying their crosses, but have not yet reached the end. We are not supposed to despise the day of small beginnings.

The extra oil for the lamps of the virgins has to be bought as we go along....we don't wait to the end and go buy our extra oil then, it's too late then, as that parable shows, but we need to be accruing it in our vessel as it were, by paying the price to follow the Lord as we go along.

Scripture shows that we are being perfected through sufferings, like the captain of our salvation was, which obviously takes time and doesn't happen overnight. It seems apparent that there is process and progression in being made holy through chastisements and suffering:


Heb 2:9-11

But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,


Heb 5:7-9

Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;
Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;


Heb 12:9-11

Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.


2Co 4:16-18

For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day.
For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory;
While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

1Pe 4:12-13

Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:
But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.


Rom 8:16-18

The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.


2Ti 2:11-12

It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:
If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:


Phl 2:8

Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.



We follow our captain, follow in His footsteps learning obedience and being perfected through suffering….we are to endure faithful on this journey of the death of our self-life until the end. Loving not our lives to the death, being faithful unto death (whether figurative or literal), enduring to the end.


1Pe 5:9-10

Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.
But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.


2Co 3:18

But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord. (We are being changed through the washing of the water of the word, as well as by the fire of sufferings.)


2Th 1:3

We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is meet, because that your faith groweth exceedingly, and the charity of every one of you all toward each other aboundeth (ie is increasing)


2Pe 1:5-9

And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
For if these things be in you, and abound (are increasing/growing), they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

Virtue in morality and ethics seems to me to be the very first thing we add to our faith....and then as we along we are adding more things, until finally the last and what seems to me to be the most precious one, which almost seems like it is the the pinnacle and accumulation of all the others.....agape love...selflessness. The more excellent way. These scriptures are not showing us being perfected in an instant. But once and if we get to the end of that process in this life....then I believe a change comes which happens in a twinkling.

But we don't get there by bypassing the Way of the Cross, though people may try. Think that was the error of the prodigal son really....he wanted his inheritance too early before the death of his "old man".....hadn't even added patience to his faith yet. He rolled of the altar too early, in effect. And the father granted his request...then look what happened, because he wasn't ready for the inheritance yet....he still needed more time in the crucible of the Way to deal with his flesh.

 

[Episkopos]

Doesn't sound like you allow that there's much of the new testament at all that was written for who are "only" born again of His Spirit but are not yet perfect.

You are calling pretenders many who are on the Way, carrying their crosses, but have not yet reached the end. We are not supposed to despise the day of small beginnings.

I don't. What I don't think will work out well for many on judgment day to to claim things that are forbidden. Remember the guest who didn't have his wedding garment on...and was asked why he didn't? Was he treated nicely? Was he mollycoddled?

You need to encounter God for real and learn what the fear of the Lord is. That would fix 50% of what you are trying to figure out. The other 50% would be for you to experience the cross...cutting off the part of you that you think is justified, to allow the part of you that God is after to come forth.

And the perfection of Christ is something we can put on...in an instant. Faith moves mountains.

The extra oil for the lamps of the virgins has to be bought as we go along....we don't wait to the end and go buy our extra oil then, it's too late then, as that parable shows, but we need to be accruing it in our vessel as it were, by paying the price to follow the Lord as we go along.

Scripture shows that we are being perfected through sufferings, like the captain of our salvation was, which obviously takes time and doesn't happen overnight. It seems apparent that there is process and progression in being made holy through chastisements and suffering:

No. You are going in circles. The oil comes from a new filling of the Spirit...obtained by seeking God's face WHERE He is.

Heb 2:9-11

But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,


Heb 5:7-9

Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;
Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;


Heb 12:9-11

Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.


2Co 4:16-18

For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day.
For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory;
While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

1Pe 4:12-13

Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:
But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.


Rom 8:16-18

The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.


2Ti 2:11-12

It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:
If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:


Phl 2:8

Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.



We follow our captain, follow in His footsteps learning obedience and being perfected through suffering….we are to endure faithful on this journey of the death of our self-life until the end. Loving not our lives to the death, being faithful unto death (whether figurative or literal), enduring to the end.


1Pe 5:9-10

Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.
But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.


2Co 3:18

But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord. (We are being changed through the washing of the water of the word, as well as by the fire of sufferings.)


2Th 1:3

We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is meet, because that your faith groweth exceedingly, and the charity of every one of you all toward each other aboundeth (ie is increasing)


2Pe 1:5-9

And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
For if these things be in you, and abound (are increasing/growing), they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

Virtue in morality and ethics seems to me to be the very first thing we add to our faith....and then as we along we are adding more things, until finally the last and what seems to me to be the most precious one, which almost seems like it is the the pinnacle and accumulation of all the others.....agape love...selflessness. The more excellent way. These scriptures are not showing us being perfected in an instant. But once and if we get to the end of that process in this life....then I believe a change comes which happens in a twinkling.

But we don't get there by bypassing the Way of the Cross, though people may try. Think that was the error of the prodigal son really....he wanted his inheritance too early before the death of his "old man".....hadn't even added patience to his faith yet. He rolled of the altar too early, in effect. And the father granted his request...then look what happened, because he wasn't ready for the inheritance yet....he still needed more time in the crucible of the Way to deal with his flesh.

One is either fully sanctified...or not at all. There is no mixture in holiness. You indoctrination stops you from realizing the most basic things we read about in the bible.

 

[Episkopos]

The "new and living way" that is in Christ is not based on a covering up of our true condition. No, God sanctifies those who are His in order that they might be reconciled into a intimate walk with Him.

We can assume we are "His" the same way we defend our rights as citizens in our own country. But God decides who is His.

Can we know if we are His? Those who walk in an active ego are NOT His. No, only the crucified ones are His.

And they that are Christ's have had their flesh crucified with the affections and lusts. (My correction)

 

[Lizbeth]

I don't. What I don't think will work out well for many on judgment day to to claim things that are forbidden. Remember the guest who didn't have his wedding garment on...and was asked why he didn't? Was he treated nicely? Was he mollycoddled?

You need to encounter God for real and learn what the fear of the Lord is. That would fix 50% of what you are trying to figure out. The other 50% would be for you to experience the cross...cutting off the part of you that you think is justified, to allow the part of you that God is after to come forth.

And the perfection of Christ is something we can put on...in an instant. Faith moves mountains.


No. You are going in circles. The oil comes from a new filling of the Spirit...obtained by seeking God's face WHERE He is.

One is either fully sanctified...or not at all. There is no mixture in holiness. You indoctrination stops you from realizing the most basic things we read about in the bible.

It's as though you didn't read those scrips. You would need ears to hear this as well.......that though we are sons (selah...that means we are sanctified) yet learn we obedience by the things we suffer......we too are being perfected through suffering.

And just to say regarding an earlier comment, that it doesn't make sense that those who are already "perfected" and fully righteous would need to wash their feet and examine themselves and bring their sins (what sins in that case?) to the cross to be forgiven and cleansed through partaking of the communion.

 

[Episkopos]

It's as though you didn't read those scrips. You would need ears to hear this as well.......that though we are sons (selah...that means we are sanctified) yet learn we obedience by the things we suffer......we too are being perfected through suffering.

And just to say regarding an earlier comment, that it doesn't make sense that those who are already "perfected" and fully righteous would need to wash their feet and examine themselves and bring their sins (what sins in that case?) to the cross to be forgiven and cleansed through partaking of the communion.

"But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanses us from all sin." 1 John 1:7

 

[Lizbeth]

"But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanses us from all sin." 1 John 1:7

Yes. If we confess our sins He will be faithful to forgive and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

But do the perfected need to be perfected?

 

[Episkopos]

Yes. If we confess our sins He will be faithful to forgive and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

But do the perfected need to be perfected?

The perfect need to be perfected. Of course! Jesus had also to be perfected in His humanity.

There is the perfection of holiness...and the perfection of character. One is about purity and the other about maturity.

Maturity is what we are learning...NOT purity. With more maturity we hold onto the free gift of God's holiness...as we walk in the light in the kingdom realm...to walk as Jesus walked...in the light as He is in the light.

There are 2 realms to synchronize...heaven and Earth. Those who walk in the Spirit walk in both simultaneously. That is the mystery of godliness. A superimposed walk in the light....of both heaven and Earth. Or...on Earth as it is in heaven.

 

[amigo de christo]

Yes. If we confess our sins He will be faithful to forgive and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

But do the perfected need to be perfected?

but if any bring not the true gospel , we fellowship not with them .
All is in vain if the DIRE need to have believed on JESUS the CHRIST is not at the center of it all .
remember, that many now do try and instruct others about perhaps doing some good works
BUT JESUS IS NO LONGER the CENTER of their doctrine . Its is a like a man
who cut copied and pasted SOME of the good instructions that JESUS had given
and yet POINTS not to the DIRE NEED TO HAVE TO BELIEVE ON HE WHO GAVE THEM INSTRUCTIONS .
its a MERGING mindset is all many now preach n teach . a mindset to merge all to be as one
to merge all to have fellowship , BUT IT AINT UNDER GOD and CHRIST . Its under something else
who has come in its own name to deceive all to merge as one and build in its tower to try and reach heaven .
Wont bode well for that tower or its people who built in it , ON THE DAY OF THE LORD .

 

[Lizbeth]

The perfect need to be perfected. Of course! Jesus had also to be perfected in His humanity.

There is the perfection of holiness...and the perfection of character. One is about purity and the other about maturity.

Maturity is what we are learning...NOT purity. With more maturity we hold onto the free gift of God's holiness...as we walk in the light in the kingdom realm...to walk as Jesus walked...in the light as He is in the light.

There are 2 realms to synchronize...heaven and Earth. Those who walk in the Spirit walk in both simultaneously. That is the mystery of godliness. A superimposed walk in the light....of both heaven and Earth. Or...on Earth as it is in heaven.

Oh? Weren't you just arguing with me that Jesus didn't need perfecting?

However, I'm going to consider whether those scrips could be speaking on more than one level at the same time....I will wait on the Lord for that. In the meantime....we better not be throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

 

[Lizbeth]

but if any bring not the true gospel , we fellowship not with them .
All is in vain if the DIRE need to have believed on JESUS the CHRIST is not at the center of it all .
remember, that many now do try and instruct others about perhaps doing some good works
BUT JESUS IS NO LONGER the CENTER of their doctrine . Its is a like a man
who cut copied and pasted SOME of the good instructions that JESUS had given
and yet POINTS not to the DIRE NEED TO HAVE TO BELIEVE ON HE WHO GAVE THEM INSTRUCTIONS .
its a MERGING mindset is all many now preach n teach . a mindset to merge all to be as one
to merge all to have fellowship , BUT IT AINT UNDER GOD and CHRIST . Its under something else
who has come in its own name to deceive all to merge as one and build in its tower to try and reach heaven .
Wont bode well for that tower or its people who built in it , ON THE DAY OF THE LORD .

Amen.

1Pe 4:17-19
For it is time for judgment to begin with God’s household; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who do not obey the gospel of God?
And, “If it is hard for the righteous to be saved, what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?”
So then, those who suffer according to God’s will should commit themselves to their faithful Creator and continue to do good.

It is “hard” for the righteous to be saved because of the chastisements and suffering we undergo in this life….BECAUSE we belong to the Lord. This is the hardness we are to endure as soldiers. So what will become of those who don’t even belong to Him? How does one obey the gospel who don't even have it?

I do believe it is vital for believers to be obeying God though. Can't come to faith and spend one's life in sin and disobeying God's word and leading and will, and still expect to be saved in the end.

 

[amigo de christo]

Amen.

1Pe 4:17-19
For it is time for judgment to begin with God’s household; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who do not obey the gospel of God?
And, “If it is hard for the righteous to be saved, what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?”
So then, those who suffer according to God’s will should commit themselves to their faithful Creator and continue to do good.

It is “hard” for the righteous to be saved because of the chastisements and suffering we undergo in this life….BECAUSE we belong to the Lord. This is the hardness we are to endure as soldiers. So what will become of those who don’t even belong to Him? How does one obey the gospel who don't even have it?

I do believe it is vital for believers to be obeying God though. Can't come to faith and spend one's life in sin and disobeying God's word and leading and will, and still expect to be saved in the end.

Cant come to Faith and spend ones life in sin disobeying God , His word ,
Because they never came TO FAITH
they never truly believed . Abraham did .
BELIEF , FAITH , OBEDIANCE , LOVE , HOPE
What one hopes in is what they believe in , what they loved and where their faith was and trust was in .
The question is , Are folks trusting in what they want to BELIEVE IS GOD , IS CHRIST
the question is , are folks hoping in GOD , in CHRIST or ...............................perhaps its lip service .
You see
many have come to an image of what their heart desired GOD to be , CHRIST to be
and yet IT SURE SEEMS to contradict GOD and CHRIST .
and yet it sure seems to serve a god whose image is easily seen every time they stand in front of a mirror to comb their hair
or perhaps to brush their teeth or perhaps just to pay homage too and admire the reflection looking back at them from the mirror .
TOO MANY are serving that god and have thus been fed their own hearts desires
and been given over to the idol and idols of their heart .
TRUE LOVE that cometh of GOD , GUESS WHO that PUTS FIRST ABOVE ALL . GOD AND HIS CHRIST , HIS WORDS
are embraced , HIS WORDS which are truth are LOVED , would be obeyed and that FROM THE HEART .
SOMETHING has gone totally amiss and that within even christendom .
The prophets and leaders of this people have constructed that which ought not to have been done .
That which serves the flesh of men and yet giveth and offers salvation . IT AINT LOOKING GOOD SISTER .
who we LOVE is WHOSE WE ARE . WHO we love and whose LOVE is upon our hearts , WELL THAT IS WHO WE WOULD
have obeyed . agape love cometh of GOD , the love of the world cometh of the world .
AGAPE LOVE shed by the SPIRIT would have rejoiced in TRUTH , rejoices in TRUTH . THY WORD IS TRUTH .
love that cometh of the world will rejoice in that which pleases the flesh . There is but one reason
why men dont come to Christ
THERE is but one reason why men would create another sin accepting many path accepting gospel .
THEY LOVED A LIE ,they loved SIN and wanted a BROAD ROAD SIN ACCEPTING gospel . they want THAT jesus
that god . and boy do i have news , IT BE THE DEVIL , NOT GOD , NOT CHRIST , but anti christ .
many now worship in full allegaince the god who has come in his own name
and presented an image of what IT CALLS GOD so as to convince the world to merge as one UNDER IT
and to soon mount as one to rise against even the lambs who conformed not to it .

 

[amigo de christo]

Oh? Weren't you just arguing with me that Jesus didn't need perfecting?

However, I'm going to consider whether those scrips could be speaking on more than one level at the same time....I will wait on the Lord for that. In the meantime....we better not be throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

that man done threw the baby out
all that is left is the dung and wee the baby left in the water .
that water was kept but the baby was long ago thrown out .
THROW OUT THE DIRE NEED TO BELIEVE ON JESUS CHRIST
and all that is left is DIRTY WATERS that ought not to have once been sipped on . THAT IS ALL EPI preaches now .
THIS WILL MERGE all not in the lambs book of life to rise , to rise as ONE .
Even budda taught concepts that mimic the golden rule
even muhammed taught concepts that can mimic the golden rule
EVEN in boy scouts i was taught the golden rule .
BUT what was not taught in all those religoins and mindsets , THE DIRE NEED TO HAVE TO BELIEVE ON
HE WHO SAID THAT GOLDEN RULE . KEEP that in mind .
Because through those concepts the religions and all are now merging to be as one
AND YET the DIRE NEED TO HAVE TO BELEIVE ON CHRIST JESUS , GETS DENIED .
go to and behold the churches and false religoins and athiest and politicians and their inclusive message .
IT DO SAY LOVE THY NEIGHBOR
and among all religoins it do say LOVE GOD , LOVE THY NEIGHBOR
but guess what it dont say , BELEIVE ON HE WHO SAID THEM WORDS . THE DEVIL IS SLICK SISTER .
HE HAS THEM ALL . HE HAS THEM ALL BELIEVING A LIE and most of christendom and even those who profess
to believe on JESUS THE CHRIST are now GOING UNDER ITS INFLUENCE .
TRUTH IS , IT SPRANG FROM WITHIN CHRISTENDOM . the utlimate lie that would gather all not in the lambs book of life
TO MERGE AS ONE and BUILD IN ITS TOWER , CAME FROM WITHIN CHRISTENDOM itself .
THIS IS NOT LOOKING GOOD SISTER . NOT AT ALL .

 

[amigo de christo]

Oh? Weren't you just arguing with me that Jesus didn't need perfecting?

However, I'm going to consider whether those scrips could be speaking on more than one level at the same time....I will wait on the Lord for that. In the meantime....we better not be throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

Its is what HE DO sister . he say one thing , then contradicts it . HE DO IT A LOT TOO SISTER .
A LOT .
the man is in grave and deadly danger . What he often accuses us of doing
like his constant talk about religious dribble
or ego . ITS HE WHO IS DOING IT . cause WE POINTING TO JESUS CHRIST and the cross
HE POINTES only to a cross , and the truth is IT AINT EVEN THE CROSS . CAUSE IN ORDER TO POINT TO THE CROSS
WE HAVE too point to THE DIRE NEED TO BELIEVE ON HE WHO WAS CRUCIFIED ON SAID cross . THIS IS NOT LOOKING GOOD .
NOT at all .

 

[amigo de christo]

We walk it out backward. We start with His end...being crucified...and then suffer His reproach as we follow Him among so many pretenders.

Just as Jesus had to learn human righteousness...we have to learn what God's righteousness is.

Jesus came to fulfill ALL righteousness (at both levels) so that we could follow Him into ALL righteousness (the righteousness of saints)

JESUS NEVER learned HUMAN righteousness . No human is righteous . JESUS SIMPLY WAS
the RIGHTEOUS ONE who did come in the flesh of men and who did experience the same things that all men do
YET It was for our sake . GOD did not have to learn to become righteous or learn righteousness .
NOR DID HIS WORD become flesh . JESUS simply experienced temptations
and OVERCAME Them all . so that ALL WHO , now take close heed to these next words epi , BELIEVE
could be saved , could be made righteous and learn to walk righteously , pleasing unto GOD .
Human righteous . THERE IS NONE . JESUS Didnt have to learn how to sin or how to try and save
himself by self righteous acts . HE ALREADY WAS RIGHTEOUS , and LONG before the earth or anything that was ever was .
human righteousness . there might be such a thing as human righteousness in the dictionary
but ACCORDING TO GOD , IT DONT EXIST . for no man is RIGHTEOUS in the sight of GOD , er one has fallen far short of that .