TULIP an open discussion

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marks

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Again that’s not how he says we are Born Again..
We are born by the Spirit and it is mystical and supernatural, and performed by God. That would be the process or means of rebirth. The conditions of rebirth, this is something different.

The process of charging your Tesla is that you have a wire plugged into your car that delivers an electron flow or whatever electricity is, that is stored in your car. The conditions of charging your Tesla is that you have to pull forward to the charger and plug in the wire.

The process of rebirth is that God does it. The conditions of rebirth are that you believe and receive, or call upon His Name, or whichever passage you want to draw this from.

Much love!
 

Ritajanice

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The solution is that we all accept the plain sayings of the Scriptures. If it says that those he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ, then that's what it says, no more, no less.
Which means what?xx
And it doesn't say He predestined anyone for rebirth. It does say that rebirth is after belief.
If we were predestined to be conformed into the image of Jesus, then imo that means you must be Born Again...because you can’t be conformed to the image of Jesus without the witness of the Holy Spirit.
If we both accept the plain sayings of these passages we will be in complete agreement.

Much love!
 

Ritajanice

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We are born by the Spirit and it is mystical and supernatural, and performed by God. That would be the process or means of rebirth. The conditions of rebirth, this is something different.

The process of charging your Tesla is that you have a wire plugged into your car that delivers an electron flow or whatever electricity is, that is stored in your car. The conditions of charging your Tesla is that you have to pull forward to the charger and plug in the wire.

The process of rebirth is that God does it. The conditions of rebirth are that you believe and receive, or call upon His Name, or whichever passage you want to draw this from.

Much love!
Thanks for your opinion.xx
 

Behold

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Faith is a gift from God...human faith is no faith at all.xx


When a preacher preaches the Gospel, to "all who will believe".......He is not looking for God's faith in you... He is looking for Your Faith, in God. He is looking specifically for you to BELIEVE in Jesus.
That's up to you.

You're the Believer, or the unbeliever.

Salvation is not............ a room full of people, and God says....."ok, every 4th person, i'll cause you to believe" and "every 9 th person, i'll choose you for hell".. (before you were born).

See that ? That is Calvinism, (pre-destined) and its a doctrine of devils.... Hebrews 13:9
 

Ritajanice

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free will is the God given ability and right that we all have to make CHOICES.

We can choose whatever we WANT.

I can choose to keep coming back to this forum, or not.
I can choose to write a Thread or 2, today, or CHOOSE to do it, on Saturday, 4-6-24

I can choose to go to the Gym or not, ...


When i was 16 i chose Christ.. and God saved me because i chose Jesus as my Savior. I BELIEVED.

He didnt cause me to Choose Jesus, as then i would have no Choice, and that is Not FAITH.

Faith, is TRUST.
Christian Faith is to BELIEVE In Jesus and that is a CHOICE we made.
For me, I was predestined to receive Jesus, I had no say in the matter....I was predestined and chosen for his purpose and his plan....

Jesus was also predestined to become our Saviour.....xx..did Jesus have a say to be Born the Son Of God...no he did not,xx

I never had a say in my flesh birth.

I never had a say in my second spiritual birth....my testimony and belief 100%.xx


He was the perfect one and we as his children are being made into his image.....I know, I have a long way to go, but....I can’t do it in my own strength.....only he the Holy Spirit can work in my heart to be more like Jesus....he’s certainly doing that..I can see him at work in my life....he’s a dedicated Father to his children...All Glory to God!!

2 Corinthians 1:22
Audio Crossref Comment Greek
Verse (Click for Chapter)
New International Version
set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

New Living Translation
and he has identified us as his own by placing the Holy Spirit in our hearts as the first installment that guarantees everything he has promised us.

English Standard Version
and who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.

Berean Standard Bible
placed His seal on us, and put His Spirit in our hearts as a pledge of what is to come.
 
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Ritajanice

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When a preacher preaches the Gospel, to "all who will believe".......He is not looking for God's faith in you... He is looking for Your Faith, in God. He is looking specifically for you to BELIEVE in Jesus.
That's up to you.
You can’t have faith in God without his Spirit...you can only initially believe in Jesus...you then need the God given faith who is the Holy Spirit...Faith from God manifest itself in our spirit.that is biblical.xx
You're the Believer, or the unbeliever.

Salvation is not............ a room full of people, and God says....."ok, every 4th person, i'll cause you to believe" and "every 9 th person, i'll choose you for hell".. (before you were born).

See that ? That is Calvinism.
God does choose us to believe..he brings us to initially believe in Jesus..he also draws us to Jesus.

God knows who is going to hell....
 
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marks

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Thanks for your opinion.xx
John 1:12-13 KJV
12) But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13) Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

If you accept the plain saying of this passage, believing comes before rebirth, whether that makes sense to any of us or not.

To say that believing comes after rebirth is to contradict this passage, not to mention a number of others.

And that's all I've got. Call it opinion, call it what you like. I call it Holy Scripture. I accept it as it is.

Much love!
 

Ritajanice

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John 1:12-13 KJV
12) But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13) Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

If you accept the plain saying of this passage, believing comes before rebirth, whether that makes sense to any of us or not.

To say that believing comes after rebirth is to contradict this passage, not to mention a number of others.

And that's all I've got. Call it opinion, call it what you like. I call it Holy Scripture. I accept it as it is.

Much love!
We’ve already discussed this....as many as received him to gave the power....he is the one with the power to bring us to Christ and give us spiritual rebirth...

The passage isn’t saying to me what it’s saying to you...your understanding of it is plain to you, my understanding of it is also plain to me,xx

So , what you read into it...I don’t.

What I read into it...you don’t..xx
 

Ritajanice

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Who produces the fruit in us and why does fruit take much longer to produce in some than it does in others?xx

I hope someone answers this question.

I have an idea why...I would like to here from others on this subject,xx

Does Calvin mention anything about fruit of Jesus in his teachings @CadyandZoe ....any feedback from you on Jesus fruit? Xxx
Also the saying of God you shall know them by their fruit?xx
 
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Wrangler

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I think the free Willers don’t understand those who believe they were predestined and chosen by God...I 100% believe I was chosen and predestined..I can see that now, looking back over my life...imo of course.

The you get those who believe they were chosen and predestined to become Born Again...can’t get their head around free will as it makes no sense to us.
Discernment. Practical limits. Everything that exists is limited.

In one conversation I had with Catholics decades ago, they equated Free Will to mean one has to have God like powers, such as choosing when to be born, not needing air to breath, food to eat, no need to sleep, etc. Also, I applied for a job and was not selected for the final round.

None of these things ought be used to reject the notion of Free Will. This past weekend, I had the joy to be with my daughter and grandaughter out of State. The 3 year old was keenly aware of what she wanted and did not want and she expressed this self awareness of her will continually. :D
 

Nancy

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Hi all,
Someone asked me to begin a thread about the Reformed doctrine summarized by Calvinists as TULIP

Here is what I said earlier

Calvin's followers have summarized his teaching with the pneumonic acronym TULIP

T = Total depravity
U = Unconditional Election
L = Limited Atonement
I = Irresistible Grace
P = Perseverance of the Saints.

This theological perspective seeks to answer the question, "How much does man participate in his (or her) salvation?" Both Theologians and Bible students seek a balance between two principles: 1) God's sovereignty and 2) Man's responsibility. Calvinists maintain that salvation is by grace alone and, therefore, man has little to do with being saved. Those who are being saved are the victims of God's grace, if I can put it that way.

Please feel free to comment. You can agree, or disagree, or if you like, simply ask questions for others to answer. I am not an expert on these, though I can respond to "easy" questions about the doctrine. I would need to take a deeper dive into the subject and read some Reformed web sites to familiarize myself in what the doctrine teaches.

I am, however, very well-versed in the Biblical text from where such doctrines are derived.

Anyway, may those who participate in this thread be blessed and bless others. :)
Hello C & Z,
I've only one comment. P = Perseverance of the Saints. Now, does not the word perseverance itself intone "works"? Maybe "preservation" would make it not sound so "worky"?

To persevere is certainly work:
Perseverance : continued effort to do or achieve something despite difficulties, failure, or opposition : the action or condition or an instance of persevering : steadfastness.

Even the word "strive" would be a better fit but would mess up the acronym, so it should start with a P I guess so...why not preservation?

Just a thought...
 

Ritajanice

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None of these things ought be used to reject the notion of Free Will. This past weekend, I had the joy to be with my daughter and grandaughter out of State. The 3 year old was keenly aware of what she wanted and did not want and she expressed this self awareness of her will continually
How lovely, I sent my granddaughter a birthday card, they live in Carlisle/ Cumbria...to far away for me to visit, we face time though....

Interesting you say, she expressed this self awareness and her will continually ...some aren’t allowed to do that though are they....as some are brought up being controlled or even conformed to be how their parents want them to be....therefore they don’t know what it means to have a will of their own...I must give that some more thought..xx
 
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Behold

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The Holy Spirit comes completely out of the blue as his word says, he’s like the wind...

They Holy Spirit... = In the OT...... this is found as.....>"The word of the Lord came to'" ..(the Prophet).

In the NT, the Holy Spirit reveals to the unbeliever, the truth, that Jesus is their Savior and they need to be saved.

The Law was given so that a person can SEE themselves as a sinner and then they can go to the Cross for Redemption, Forgiveness.

That's the Gospel., and God wants us to believe it.

This is , in the NT.. "FAITH comes, by Hearing".. the Gospel...

Its also true that "when any 2 are gathered in my Name, there i am"... So, that is an anointing that comes when believer's gather and praise God and Jesus.

On a forum, this is never found, because the Devil controls them, with Cross rejecting Theology that causes "contention and strife and every evil work".

There is also... what happens when a anointed teacher teaches and the hearer is stirred inside in a way that isn't natural.
Its supernatural, and that is = the Holy Spirit revealing God's word of Knowledge to the "spiritual eyes" of the student.
This can happen also with regards to the BIBLE. (studying).
A person can just fall in love with the word of God, obsess on it, and that is the best work they'll ever perform regarding gaining this... "as many as be perfect"..
However, that place is a slippery slope because there are may paths that seem like revelation and they are Satan's.
This is why a Believer has to live in : Hebrews 13:9, by faith, or a cult will get you.



You never know what time or day he will Spirit gives birth to spirit.

It'll happens any time the person believes in Jesus.
And it can happen anywhere.
Driving in your car.

or, in a prison cell.

or watching a Christian Movie.


it’s a reunion of his Spirit to our spirit, we are reconciled back to God via his Spirit.

Once you give God your faith in Christ, then God will give you the new birth, and you then have this assurance of Salvation.
And then the devil will come to you with a person who tries to corrupt your faith with self effort to try to stay saved.

The Spiritual birth is carried out by God, you wouldn’t know how to do that....you can’t see the spiritual birth, only after we have received that miracle, mind blowing rebirth.

Philippians 1:6

"God who started Salvation (in all the born again) will HIMSELF be Faithful...... to complete it".

The literal completion isn't to be born again.. as thats the Start.........the literal completion is = "conformed into the image of Christ" and that happens after you die, or are Raptured.

It’s Gods will that we are Born Again...how can you give him your faith, without receiving it from him first?

If we give God the faith He gave us, then we are giving His faith back to Him.
He's not looking for His....He's looking for Theirs. Yours.

There is "the gift of faith", but that is not related to salvation, that is related to one of the 9 spiritual Gifts.


God is looking for "faith in Christ" on the part of the Unbeliever......... as they are the unbeliever, who needs to believe.
They need to REPENT from unbelief unto FAITH in Christ.
They have to do that... that is to BELIEVE for the first time.

If God gave you faith, then He would not require you to believe.
There would be no need for YOU to believe, if God caused you to have faith.
He would then be believing in Jesus, through you, and that is not you doing it.
He's not looking for His Faith, in you.. .. God is looking for YOUR FAITH in Christ.
That's your choice and mine, and everyone's who will give THEIR faith in Christ to God.


God initially brings us to believe in Jesus

"faith comes by Hearing".. The Gospel.

So, its the Holy Spirit that reveals that the Gospel, is TRUE.

You believed it. and YOUR FAITH was counted by God...


You've read in JAMES...... that a believer can have DEAD FAITH?

Paul says that your faith can become "bewitched" or "shipwrecked"

Well, if faith is something that is God given, then how can it die, or become bewitched, or become shipwrecked ???????

......God is the one who planned from the beginning who he brings to Christ....you can’t choose God.

Calvin teaches that the person is not responsible for their own decision to trust in Christ, but that God decided He would cause them to, believe.. but only some. (Limited Atonement).. = So, that means that The Cross is not for everyone, and that is a Demonic lie.

"Jesus came into the world to save SINNERS">......John 3:16.......not to cause you to realize you are born again.

"Sinners'" = is everyone, and Jesus came to "save THEM".. And everyone is a sinner, needing to be saved.

Why are not all SINNERS saved?
Its because they didnt ALL Trust in Christ.

God does not force anyone to trust in Christ., but He wants everyone to Trust in Christ.
 

Behold

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You can’t have faith in God without his Spirit...

= Without His Sprit revealing to you that Jesus is the Messiah, you would not trust.

The HS reveals this to unbelievers, so that they can TRUST Christ.

..Faith from God manifest itself in our spirit.that is biblical.xx

Faith in God, allows God to manifest the new birth as us becoming born again Believers.

God does choose us to believe.

God offers Christ to everyone.

That includes the unbelievers who died .

God knows who is going to hell....

But he never choose anyone to go to hell.

He offer Heaven instead...but not everyone is going to believe so that HE CAN give them Heaven as their home.
 

Ritajanice

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Behold, i Love you Brother, from my heart..I am now going to exit this thread as I believe the Lord is leading me to do so...keep up the good work..xxx
 
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CadyandZoe

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Hello C & Z,
I've only one comment. P = Perseverance of the Saints. Now, does not the word perseverance itself intone "works"? Maybe "preservation" would make it not sound so "worky"?

To persevere is certainly work:
Perseverance : continued effort to do or achieve something despite difficulties, failure, or opposition : the action or condition or an instance of persevering : steadfastness.

Even the word "strive" would be a better fit but would mess up the acronym, so it should start with a P I guess so...why not preservation?

Just a thought...
Yes, preservation might be a better term.
 
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APAK

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I disagree. Call me ignorant, if you will. Predestination has been demonized because it has been abused to contradict the notion of human moral agency, upending any system of justice - divine or otherwise. Of course, we are a product of our upbringing, environment and force of habits but there is still the element of choice, independent of coercion or mindless programming.

In reality, Predestination is merely the consequence of God creating time and existing outside of time, itself. It is an existence we, temporal beings, cannot comprehend.

Also denied is that everything plays out according to God's will. There is a difference between willing something - like the fall of man - and allowing things to happen. Because man has some semblance of control, we plan our dominion of Earth per Genesis 1:26. God set up the fundamental laws of nature and only ocassionally intercedes. Such events are called miracles. The best way I've heard it described is that we are on a ship and can do anything and go anywhere we want on the ship, but God is piloting and steering the ship's final destination, which drives our final destination.


People do their best making plans for their lives,
but the Eternal guides each step.
Proverbs 16:9 (VOICE)
That's a theory indeed...I was really presenting and responding to our human will, and secondly to predestination of God in general. Our will it is of a carnal nature and VERY limited in choice when it comes to being reborn. This is where predestination is king. That was my only focus, and a vey important one, even if I just thought it when I was writing. I really was not considering every day decision making in life where salvation is not the issue.
 
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setst777

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Hi all,
Someone asked me to begin a thread about the Reformed doctrine summarized by Calvinists as TULIP

Here is what I said earlier

Calvin's followers have summarized his teaching with the pneumonic acronym TULIP

T = Total depravity
U = Unconditional Election
L = Limited Atonement
I = Irresistible Grace
P = Perseverance of the Saints.

This theological perspective seeks to answer the question, "How much does man participate in his (or her) salvation?" Both Theologians and Bible students seek a balance between two principles: 1) God's sovereignty and 2) Man's responsibility. Calvinists maintain that salvation is by grace alone and, therefore, man has little to do with being saved. Those who are being saved are the victims of God's grace, if I can put it that way.

Please feel free to comment. You can agree, or disagree, or if you like, simply ask questions for others to answer. I am not an expert on these, though I can respond to "easy" questions about the doctrine. I would need to take a deeper dive into the subject and read some Reformed web sites to familiarize myself in what the doctrine teaches.

I am, however, very well-versed in the Biblical text from where such doctrines are derived.

Anyway, may those who participate in this thread be blessed and bless others. :)

All of TULIP is founded on the Calvinist doctrine of the Sovereignty of God, of which all forms of orthodox Calvinism define as theological determinism, which means that:

Every event in the world, whether "First-Cause," "other causes," and "immediate causes," they are all planned and determined by God, including mankind's choices, whether good or bad, from before the foundation of the world - all of which fulfills God's predetermined plans. The Westminster Confession of Faith agrees. In fact, the Calvinist defines God's "foreknowledge" as "for-CAUSES."

Although mankind perceives that all the choices they make are their own, by their own free will, God is the one who causes all humans to choose the way they do to fulfill his plan and design for each of them, and has created each person, and 1/3 of the angels, for eternal torment, and has determined to save some of mankind. The choices each person makes in life is, therefore, 100% God's work, and 0% man's work, because mankind has no real free-will.

Therefore, although Calvinism will not admit it, every sin that every person ever commits are 100% God's work and 0% man's work.

WHY?

The reasons were explained in their own doctrine; in that, God, who is Sovereign, does not act on what he foresaw, but on what he for-CAUSES.

The end result of all this, is that God created most people to hate and send to eternal torment for the sins that God is 100% responsible for. Every person is but a victim of God, which includes: Esau, Judas Iscariot, etc.

What that actually means is that the total depravity of mankind was predetermined and caused by God, who designs and works though all other causes to bring about His plan - for nothing happens that God does not for-CAUSE.

Although Calvinism will not admit it, what their definition of God's Sovereignty boils down to is that God is the only one responsible for the choices mankind makes, which means that God is 100% responsible for all the sins mankind has committed throughout human history.

Truly, Calvinism and Reformist are abhorrent doctrines that have no place in Christianity.
 
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Wrangler

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I really was not considering every day decision making in life where salvation is not the issue.
Why not? Not sure how you connect the subject of <Predestination v Free Will> to be a salvation issue. One thing I learned in reading the Bible is how Christianity is less a formal philosophy and more of a practical guide, a moral compass.

Do you deny that one must choose the gift of salvation through Christ?
 

APAK

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Why not? Not sure how you connect the subject of <Predestination v Free Will> to be a salvation issue. One thing I learned in reading the Bible is how Christianity is less a formal philosophy and more of a practical guide, a moral compass.

Do you deny that one must choose the gift of salvation through Christ?
I totally deny it.... and he's why as a primer...

The gift of Salvation, of/from God is his, and he alone decides in these divine matters of the heart....of life or death...

No, I do not agree at all with your question Wrangler.

What do you mean that you, yourself essentially chose God and caused your rebirth on your own terms of your own will? Is that how the process of salvation works, given from God? Does he somehow toss this gift over the fence or place this gift in the mailbox as something to sign up for, at your convenience and timing?

It is of course his gift and his doing in the first place, and never ours as we cannot save ourselves with our so-called free will, ever.
Yes scripture may use terms such as 'believe in him,' and 'have faith in him,' although it is vital we unpack these seemingly simple words to know of their true meaning. They mean a lot more.

Jesus said, “No one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father” (John 6:65 NASB).

“Nor does anyone know the Father, except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son will to reveal Him” (Matt. 11:27 NASB).

Because God control who is saved as his elect, the one who receives Christ as personal Savior has nothing to boast about (Eph. 2:8-9 NASB).

Gee Martha, I decided that today was a great day to get saved. I'm feelin' great, know my scripture, the gospel and now I want to decide and choose to be saved; of my own 'free' will, and God granted my wish, I felt he did...yippy, I'm now saved.....I'm born again.

Now do you believe in the election by God alone, as written in scripture? Most churches do not even preach this subject as it has become unpopular with many carnal minds sitting in the pews. They cannot stand for it...stand for competition with the divine.

So I believe we do not choose salvation at all. And this reality gets on people's nerves to no end, that their own human will cannot trump the will of God or at least be equal with his, and share in his miracle gift of rebirth to new life.

Here's something I extracted from an article as I was lazy, on this very topic....it is the truth

Israel was elected as God’s chosen people (Deut 7:6; Is. 45:5 NASB). God divinely chose great men of the Old Testament: such as Isaac (Gen. 21:12 NASB), Abraham (Neh. 9:7 NASB), and Zerubbabel (Hag. 2:23 NASB). The New Testament also testifies to God’s sovereign choosing. Jesus Himself was the elect of the Father (Is. 42:1; 1 Pet. 2:6), the apostles (John 13:18 NASB), Jacob (Rom. 9:12-13 NASB), Rufus (Rom. 16:13 NASB), and Paul (Gal. 1:15 NASB). We find that all believers are chosen of God (Titus 1:1 NASB). Believers were “predestined according to His purpose who works out all things after the counsel of His will” (Eph. 1:11 NASB). He chose the church before the foundation of the world. He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, “according to the kind intention of His will” (Eph. 1:4-5 NASB). Believers are “called according to His purpose. For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son … and whom He predestined, these He also called; and whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified” (Rom. 8:28-29 NASB). IOW saved!

The idea that God sovereignly chooses who will be saved is nowhere clearer than in the 9th chapter of Romans.

And my personal testimony agrees with the Spirit of God's action in and for my rebirth. He was present on and within me, before my heart cried out, I do, as the end of the spiritual marriage ceremony. It was the icing of the cake, already made. It was already a done deal and today I do not understand it all.

It was a miraculous event indeed.