TULIP an open discussion

[CadyandZoe]

Hi all,
Someone asked me to begin a thread about the Reformed doctrine summarized by Calvinists as TULIP

Here is what I said earlier

Calvin's followers have summarized his teaching with the pneumonic acronym TULIP

T = Total depravity
U = Unconditional Election
L = Limited Atonement
I = Irresistible Grace
P = Perseverance of the Saints.

This theological perspective seeks to answer the question, "How much does man participate in his (or her) salvation?" Both Theologians and Bible students seek a balance between two principles: 1) God's sovereignty and 2) Man's responsibility. Calvinists maintain that salvation is by grace alone and, therefore, man has little to do with being saved. Those who are being saved are the victims of God's grace, if I can put it that way.

Please feel free to comment. You can agree, or disagree, or if you like, simply ask questions for others to answer. I am not an expert on these, though I can respond to "easy" questions about the doctrine. I would need to take a deeper dive into the subject and read some Reformed web sites to familiarize myself in what the doctrine teaches.

I am, however, very well-versed in the Biblical text from where such doctrines are derived.

Anyway, may those who participate in this thread be blessed and bless others.

 

[Ritajanice]

Brother, what does totally depraved mean?

Is it saying that no man or woman would know how to bring themselves to God, because of their nature?

I’d like to know a lot about the T in Tulip before I progress any further.

Also, is Totally Depraved biblical?

 

[CadyandZoe]

Brother, was does totally depraved mean?

Is it saying that no man or woman would know how to bring themselves to God, because of their nature?

I’d like to know a lot about the T in Tulip before I progress any further.

Also, is Totally Depraved biblical?

Well, I would need to double check to verify what the Calvinists teach, but if memory serves, the doctrine is based on passages like Romans 3:9-18. In that passage, Paul indicts the entire world under the wrath of God because there are "none righteous" etc.

Also, in chapter one he brings the entire world under God's wrath due to the fact that God has given the world over to a "depraved mind." Some theologians call this "The Noetic Effects of Sin", the term "noetic" coming from the Greek word for "mind". The sin nature involves a privation of the mind, the action of perceiving or thinking, and the intellect. Jesus often speaks about those with "eyes to see" and "ears to hear" and he also talks about those who have ears that are dull with hearing and those who don't have the ability to believe the gospel because they are seeking glory from men rather than glory from God.

I don't think people are "totally" deprived but they seem unable or unwilling to believe the Gospel unless God has caused them to be born again first.

Perhaps others might have more information to share.

 

[Ritajanice]

Well, I would need to double check to verify what the Calvinists teach, but if memory serves, the doctrine is based on passages like Romans 3:9-18. In that passage, Paul indicts the entire world under the wrath of God because there are "none righteous" etc.

Also, in chapter one he brings the entire world under God's wrath due to the fact that God has given the world over to a "depraved mind." Some theologians call this "The Noetic Effects of Sin", the term "noetic" coming from the Greek word for "mind". The sin nature involves a privation of the mind, the action of perceiving or thinking, and the intellect. Jesus often speaks about those with "eyes to see" and "ears to hear" and he also talks about those who have ears that are dull with hearing and those who don't have the ability to believe the gospel because they are seeking glory from men rather than glory from God.

I don't think people are "totally" deprived but they seem unable or unwilling to believe the Gospel unless God has caused them to be born again first.

Perhaps others might have more information to share.

Wow!!..I understood a lot of what you spoke above...it makes so much sense imo...

I must look up what Jesus said about eyes and ears...I know as soon as we become Born Again our hearing and eyes see and hear so very differently, because imo, we’re in the Spirit and he in us....the eyes and ears need to be developed/ tuned in...if you get my meaning, after all we do have a Living relationship with God, via his Spirit plus we are his spiritual children....xx

 

[marks]

Also, is Totally Depraved biblical?

My understanding is that the doctrine of Total Depravity is that man is a completely falled being, incapable of doing or desiring good, unable to believe in God, and dead to all things spiritual. Unless God will unilaterally act on a man to cause him to be regenerated, and henceforth to believe, that man will never believe, cannot ever believe, and so be saved.

Paul quoted from the Psalms,

Romans 3:10-18 KJV
10) As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11) There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12) They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
13) Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
14) Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
15) Their feet are swift to shed blood:
16) Destruction and misery are in their ways:
17) And the way of peace have they not known:
18) There is no fear of God before their eyes.

The doctrine of "prevenient grace" is that God has given to each man a grace that allows them to choose to believe if that is what they want.

Titus 2, the grace of God unto salvation has appeared to all men, John 1, Jesus is the true light coming into the world that enlightens every man.

I would answer, yes, total depravity is Biblical, but not in the way the Calvinist would say, that none can choose Christ until after regeneration, which is itself unbiblical. Repentance comes before salvation in every place it's spoken of.

Much love!

 

[Ritajanice]

I don't think people are "totally" deprived but they seem unable or unwilling to believe the Gospel unless God has caused them to be born again first.

Talking from my own personal experience...I was unable to believe the gospel, that was until God brought me to believe in Jesus, then he gifted me faith and he made Born Again...I initially believed in Jesus...but, no way could I believe ,have faith in Jesus, without the Spirit testifying with my spirit Gods truth...I have the witness of the Holy Spirit in my heart, who indwells me permanently.....and the Holy Spirit is the only one who can bring me to understanding Gods word in the Spirit.

That is my opinion/ testimony and belief.

 

[Ritajanice]

My understanding is that the doctrine of Total Depravity is that man is a completely falled being, incapable of doing or desiring good, unable to believe in God, and dead to all things spiritual. Unless God will unilaterally act on a man to cause him to be regenerated, and henceforth to believe, that man will never believe, cannot ever believe, and so be saved.

See...this makes a lot of sense as well...probably because I can relate it ,with my own testimony.

Thanks for sharing,xx

 

[marks]

See...this makes a lot of sense as well...probably because I can relate it ,with my own testimony.

Thanks for sharing,xx

Personally, I find that concept completely unScriptural. My testimony is that God presented to me the evidence of the truth of the Gospel, but then required me to either commit myself to it or not.

Much love!

 

[Ritajanice]

Personally, I find that concept completely unScriptural. My testimony is that God presented to me the evidence of the truth of the Gospel, but then required me to either commit myself to it or not.

Much love!

Oh really, interesting.

I don’t find it unscriptural as God tells us how we are Born Again and it’s not by the will of man ,it’s by the will of God..
He tells us how we are Born Again...no way does he tell us when..only the minute he regenerates us, then we know by the witness of the Holy Spirit, who testifies with our spirit that we are Gods children...we must have the witness of the Spirit, he is the only one who can witness Gods truth to our heart/ spirit...as Spirit gives birth to spirit...all biblical, so not sure how you have come to the conclusion that it’s unscriptural?
God is the one who makes us Born Again..he never presented me with any evidence whatsoever ....it was by” His Will” that I became Born Again....all biblical.

How can God give you evidence ?...what do you mean evidence?xxok, sorry you’ve just explained the evidence...

That’s not how he says we are Born Again, by giving us evidence..that’s unscriptural,xx

You can’t know God without the witness of the Holy Spirit...how could you know God without His Spirit?

I’m not saying you don’t have his Spirit...I’m just asking you the question,xx

 

[Ritajanice]

Also imo,the evidence is the rebirth, when we have been Born Again of imperishable/ incorruptible seed...that’s the Holy Spirit witnessing with our spirit that we are Gods children..

I couldn’t know God without him testifying that to my spirit, it’s impossible, as his word says, without his Spirit we are none of his..

I didn’t know Jesus in the Spirit, not until I was regenerated ..is that what. CAlvin believed @CadyandZoe ?xx

Anyway ,each to their own belief, I’m just giving my opinion/ testimony and belief..I don’t want to argue over it..what I’ve said is all biblical..imo.

 

[Wrangler]

Personally, I find that concept completely unScriptural.

A Calvinist parsed total from utter depravity. Utter depravity means containing no good. Total depravity means we cannot purge ourselves of all bad.

Obviously, humans are not utterly deprived. The evidence for this is 9 B people with higher lifestyles than ever.

The Scriptural evidence for total depravity is the need for a Savior. Hope this helps.

 

[marks]

That’s not how he says we are Born Again, by giving us evidence..that’s unscriptural,xx

Do you realize that's not what I wrote?

Oh really, interesting.

I don’t find it unscriptural as God tells us how we are Born Again and it’s not by the will of man ,it’s by the will of God..

John 1:12-13 KJV
12) But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13) Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

As many as received Him . . . active voice verb here, something we do . . . these were the ones God gives rebirth to.

Yes, God alone gives us rebirth, but He does that after we've received Jesus.

How can God give you evidence ?...what do you mean evidence?xxok, sorry you’ve just explained the evidence...

I learned about the Bible's prophecy, and that showed me the Book was from outside our space/time continuum, so I believed what it said, and committed myself to Jesus, receiving Him, and being born again.

I’m not saying you don’t have his Spirit...I’m just asking you the question,xx

What question exactly are you asking me?

Much love!

 

[Ritajanice]

Do you realize that's not what I wrote?



John 1:12-13 KJV
12) But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13) Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

As many as received Him . . . active voice verb here, something we do . . . these were the ones God gives rebirth to.

Yes, God alone gives us rebirth, but He does that after we've received Jesus.

Disagree, we must be reborn then we know Jesus is the Spirit.....how do you receive Jesus, when his word says we are Born Of The Spirit, it’s the Spirit we receive?

I learned about the Bible's prophecy, and that showed me the Book was from outside our space/time continuum, so I believed what it said, and committed myself to Jesus, receiving Him, and being born again.

Did you commit yourself to God after the Spirit testified with your spirit that you were Gods child?...that’s when we’re Born Again imo as the Holy Spirit testifies Gods truth to our spirit?

What question exactly are you asking me?

I asked you ,how can one believe in Jesus , that he died and was resurrected..without the witness of the Holy Spirit?

How can one believe that Jesus truly existed, without the Holy Spirit testifying that truth to our spirit?

I only knew that truth after I was regenerated....what about our spiritual eyes and ears?

That we receive as soon as we are Born Again, which need to be developed as in being tuned into the Spirit of God, so we can see and here in the Spirit?

Much love!

 

[marks]

Disagree, we must be reborn then we know Jesus is the Spirit.....how do you receive Jesus, when his word says we are Born Of The Spirit, it’s the Spirit we receive?

What can you tell me about this passage:

John 1:12-13 KJV
12) But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13) Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Much love!

 

[marks]

I asked you ,how can one believe in Jesus , that he died and was resurrected..without the witness of the Holy Spirit?

Well, I think the Holy Spirit convicts us of sin, and righteousness, and judgment, and draws us to Christ. Certainly the evidence God gave me was conveyed by the Holy Spirit.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Did you commit yourself to God after the Spirit testified with your spirit that you were Gods child?...that’s when we’re Born Again imo as the Holy Spirit testifies Gods truth to our spirit?

You and I have different views on this and will not reach agreement, I don't think.

What I understand from Scripture is that God draws us to Him, and we have to choose. If we choose to believe, God gives us rebirth. If we do not, He does not.

If we receive Him, if we are reborn, then His Spirit testifies with our spirit that we are His children.

Much love!

 

[Ritajanice]

What can you tell me about this passage:

John 1:12-13 KJV
12) But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13) Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Much love!

We received him by the rebirth into our heart , by the will of God , who opened our heart to receive his Holy Spirit, Spirit gives birth to spirit?

We are Born Of The Spirit by the will of God...we play no part in the spiritual rebirth...as Gods word says..

“ Spirit gives birth to spirit “. he births our spirit into his.

 

[marks]

how do you receive Jesus, when his word says we are Born Of The Spirit, it’s the Spirit we receive?

Romans 8:9-10 KJV
9) But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10) And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

God is One.

Much love!

 

[Ritajanice]

You and I have different views on this and will not reach agreement, I don't think.

What I understand from Scripture is that God draws us to Him, and we have to choose. If we choose to believe, God gives us rebirth. If we do not, He does not.

If we receive Him, if we are reborn, then His Spirit testifies with our spirit that we are His children.

Much love!

I agree we have different views on this indeed.

We receive him, when “ HE” opens our heart to receive him...by his will....so yes..very different level of spiritual understanding we have.

 

[marks]

We received him by the rebirth into our heart ,

That's backwards from what the passage says.

John 1:11-13 KJV
11) He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12) But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13) Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

First is receiving, then is rebirth.

Rebirth is predicated on first receiving, and believing.

Much love!