The Case for Eternal Security

[Dan Clarkston]

Dan, is this truthfully what God and scripture says or said for you to do as part of a checklist for your salvation? Point to the pertinent scripture if you do not mind.

I already did and it went right over your head!

Romans 10:9,10
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.


Notice Romans 10:9 says if YOU shall confess and believe and does not say God will confess and believe for you.

Those who have been indoctrinated by the scripture twisters cannot understand Romans 10:9,10

Notice verse 10 says - with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

You'll notice MAN is believing and confessing unto salvation!

Calvinists have to explain away why God allowed Romans 10:9,10 to be put in His Word as they apparently claim this is a lie in the Word of God.

 

[Ritajanice]

I didn’t believe like that...how can you decide to believe in your heart and confess Jesus as Lord without the witness of the Holy Spirit?

Where does God witness his word and truth to us?

Get Born Again..that isn’t biblical.



Scripture please, as this doesn’t make sense?

How does the Holy Spirit open your eyes, without the witness of the Holy Spirit?

Spirit gives birth to spirit..before your eyes and ears can be opened?

Again how can you confess that Lord Jesus is who he says he is and believe in your heart ,without Spirit gives birth to spirit....

No one can believe without the witness of the Holy Spirit.

Reading scripture and belief in ones own understanding won’t save anyone.

Becoming Born Again is a Living Spiritual birth that you will never forget.

Gods word is Alive and Active..you don’t need any Bible to know that?

Here they are Dan,xx

 

[Dan Clarkston]

Before I go any further with you..please answer all the questions I asked you on my last post to you?

Glean the truths from the scripture I have posted from God's Word and believe.

 

[Ritajanice]

Glean the truths from the scripture I have posted from God's Word and believe.

The truth comes from Gods Living word, when we become Born Of The Spirit...you don’t have to look at scripture to know that.?

We receive his Living word into our hearts..not his written word.

Only then will you receive eyes to see and ears to hear?

Why would that be?

You cannot believe Gods written word without the witness of the Holy Spirit...as his word says.

Plus we don’t “ get Born Again “...therefore confusion in your words .

 

[Dan Clarkston]

The truth comes from Gods Living word, when we become Born Of The Spirit...you don’t have to look at scripture to know that.?

See, now that is a major problem for you that you would make assumptions without looking at what God said in His Word.

I know how the calvinists get what they believe from those that teach calvinism instead of what God';s Word says. This is the indoctrination that leads to the error of calvinism.

We receive his Living word into our hearts..not his written word.

And the Lord had His living Word written down in the Bible so people would know what He said.

You cannot believe Gods written word without the witness of the Holy Spirit...as his word says.

You are the only one claiming the Holy Spirit is not involved when man believes and becomes born again.

 

[Dan Clarkston]

Here's more Truth the calvinist has to ignore to remain a calvinist:

Jesus said the Holy Ghost would lead us in to ALL Truth (John 16:13),
and Jesus said God's Word IS Truth (John 17:17)

It's really sad to see how the calvinists reject what God says in His Word and then twists what He says as part of their indoctrination program. Sad indeed.

 

[Ritajanice]

See, now that is a major problem for you that you would make assumptions without looking at what God said in His Word.

Gods word is Alive and Active..you don’t need the Bible to become Born Of The Spirit..after we become Born Again, yes, as his written word is how we mature and grow in the Spirit.

I know how the calvinists get what they believe from those that teach calvinism instead of what God';s Word says. This is the indoctrination that leads to the error of calvinism.

From your own POV .

And the Lord had His living Word written down in the Bible so people would know what He said.

No, the Living word of God is Alive and Active..that’s in his written word.the Bible.

His written word is spoken in Spirit and truth...his Living word is exactly what he says it is.

1 Corinthians 12:3 New King James Version (NKJV) Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit.

You are the only one claiming the Holy Spirit is not involved when man believes and becomes born again.

Where did I say the Holy Spirit is not involved when we become Born Again?

 

[Ritajanice]

Here's more Truth the calvinist has to ignore to remain a calvinist:

Jesus said the Holy Ghost would lead us in to ALL Truth (John 16:13),
and Jesus said God's Word IS Truth (John 17:17)

Tell me..if you believe that the written word of God is his Living word.

How do you understand God’s written word?

And how would you understand his Living word?

 

[St. SteVen]

The bible does not contradict itself...

I think this topic proves otherwise.
Both positions have given biblical support. Who is right?
Posters are lining up on one side or the other and arguing in favor of their PERSONAL opinion on the matter.
As we should. But to say, "The bible does not contradict itself", is patently false. IMHO

/

 

[simplefaith1]

I think this topic proves otherwise.
Both positions have given biblical support. Who is right?
Posters are lining up on one side or the other and arguing in favor of their PERSONAL opinion on the matter.
As we should. But to say, "The bible does not contradict itself", is patently false. IMHO

/

How can the bible contradict itself if two different sets of people are being written about concerning the subject? As a Jewish believer once noted: ''The Quran can be understood simply by reading the letter of it, the bible was not meant to be understood that way.'' Discernment is needed to understand.
People line up one side or the other as there are verses to support either idea. If people understood two different kinds of people are being written about it should then make sense.
Sin is written about in two different ways in the bible, yet many fail to see it. Once we understand that, there is no contradiction there either

 

[APAK]

I already did and it went right over your head!

Romans 10:9,10
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.


Notice Romans 10:9 says if YOU shall confess and believe and does not say God will confess and believe for you.

Those who have been indoctrinated by the scripture twisters cannot understand Romans 10:9,10

Notice verse 10 says - with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

You'll notice MAN is believing and confessing unto salvation!

Calvinists have to explain away why God allowed Romans 10:9,10 to be put in His Word as they apparently claim this is a lie in the Word of God.

Ok it went right over my head then. Well let me catch it this time. And if you can refrain from calling me a Calvinist along the way I would dearly appreciate it. I have the the Spirit of God within me to guide me to the truth and not by any man.

Well first off, who is saying that the person being saved is not part of the engagement to Christ as God presides over his affairs of rebirth? Not me...

Now what does this scripture of verses 9 and 10 say in context and as a prerequisite? And without just quoting and underling the parts of these verses that are well understood already by most?

In verse 8
(Rom 10:8) " But what did it say? The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart. That is, the word of faith, which we preach. "

Paul is saying clearly that we must have the word of faith first, to come near us, into our hearts and then our confession of belief is exposed through words out of our mouths.

This faith of word that is near us, does not come from you Dan, it is of the Spirit of God. It is a akin to praying in the Spirit where the Spirit helps us in our words. We cannot generate these words unto righteousness (verse 10) of saving faith on our own, from our own will. It must come from God's interaction with us, as he is only righteous and so are his words and the words you must say WITH him. He must be present and presides over this engagement to matrimony with his Son. If you did the latter and made your own words, not in the Spirit, then I would seriously question my faith and salvation for sure.

God is the only one who gives us as a gift this saving faith Dan, not you. Your words are meaningless during these holy proceedings.

(Eph 2:8) For by grace have you been saved through faith, and that faith is not of yourselves, it is a gift from God.
(Eph 2:9) It is not of works, that no one should boast.
(Eph 2:10) For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God beforehand prepared that we should walk in them.

Thanks for listening Dan

 

[Ritajanice]

I think this topic proves otherwise.
Both positions have given biblical support. Who is right?
Posters are lining up on one side or the other and arguing in favor of their PERSONAL opinion on the matter.
As we should. But to say, "The bible does not contradict itself", is patently false. IMHO

/

Just a thought Brother, maybe if we all truly understood Gods word..his ( written )word, it wouldn’t contradict itself...as you say all we do is post our POV..some more forceful than others,xx

 

[St. SteVen]

As you well know, I would argue my case until the cows come home at one time,hehehe,xx

If that member believes what he believes, I’m not going to make the mistake again of batting that darn ball back and forth.

I know in my spirit, that I have been “ Born Again “ of imperishable/ incorruptible seed....that liveth and abideth forever....that is the Living word of God, who NEVER lies...NEVER.

It occurred to me on my drive to church this morning that those arguing against eternal security
are not arguing against themselves, when they really should. Can they meet the heavy burden (yoke) of
expectations they are piling onto others? What measure are they using?

Matthew 7:2 NIV
For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged,
and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

/

 

[simplefaith1]

It occurred to me on my drive to church this morning that those arguing against eternal security
are not arguing against themselves, when they really should. Can they meet the heavy burden (yoke) of
expectations they are piling onto others? What measure are they using?

Matthew 7:2 NIV
For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged,
and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

/

BTW, Im not judging according to how well a person lives their life. I would say that is what Matt7:2 is referring to. But if a person completely and irreconcilably walks away from faith in Christ, what is their righteousness before God then? That is what Jesus stated '''they believed for a while'''

 

[St. SteVen]

My understanding of what @St. SteVen is advocating is what our Catholic brothers and sisters would call "Purgatory". I'll let him address that directly.

Yes. There is a similarity between the Purgatory of the Western/Latin/Catholic Church and the Universalism of the Eastern/Greek-speaking/orthodox church. But not the same thing completely. I can speak with complete confidence about Purgatory. So, I am open to correction on that subject. (send help)

The difference as I understand it, is that Purgatory is an opportunity after physical death to pay for your own sins, or be redeemed
by the prayers of the Church. Universalism differs in that it is corrective, restorative and redemptive rather than punitive.

"The Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge" by Schaff-Herzog, 1908, volume 12, page 96 German theologian- Philip Schaff, Editor: "In the first five or six centuries of Christianity there were six theological schools, of which four (Alexandria, Antioch, Caesarea, and Edessa, or Nisibis) were Universalist, one (Ephesus) accepted conditional immortality; one (Carthage or Rome) taught endless punishment of the wicked. Other theological schools are mentioned as founded by Universalists, but their actual doctrine on this subject is not known."

/ cc: @Behold

 

[St. SteVen]

I really wish that you had addressed more of the scriptures and substance of what I posted in your reply to me.

That would be pointless.
As I have said all along. There is biblical defense for BOTH sides of this debate.
Those on your side of the debate (unless I am misunderstanding you) seem to think their PERSONAL choice of "proof-text"
scriptures are superior to those presented by the other side. And vice versa, I suppose.

Sorry that you were offended.

I presented a case for the side I am taking in this debate on page one. (several posts) Not just the OP.

I asked you a question as well.
Are claiming that you do not have eternal security?

/

 

[Behold]

The difference as I understand it, is that Purgatory

""""Jesus is the "one time Eternal Sacrifice for sin"........ not purgatory.

"God hath made JESUS>. to be SIN .. for Us".... = no purgatory required, no penance required, no enduring to the end, required, no commandment keeping required......... no water baptism required.

A. ) "purgatory" is (for the most part) a "cult of mary" man made religious invention.


"""In Catholic Doctrine purgatory refers to the final cleansing of those who died in the State of Grace, and leaves in them only "the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven"

Now notice reader..

This particular Heresy is an assault against the Cross, and the Grace of God that "trods underfoot the Blood of Jesus".

How?

1.) By Denying that the finished work of Jesus .....ON THE CROSS.... is ALL that God provides to forgive your sin.

2.) By denying Jesus's word... John 14:6

So, purgatory, = this teaching is a classic "The Cross is not enough, so lets add something to it".... Heresy.

See that?

That is "Another Gospel" = Galatians 1:8

 

[St. SteVen]

Just a thought Brother, maybe if we all truly understood Gods word..his ( written )word, it wouldn’t contradict itself...as you say all we do is post our POV..some more forceful than others,xx

I question WHY we believe that the Bible CANNOT contradict itself. ???
Do we really understand where this book came from?
I believe that those who claim no contradiction do NOT understand
how we ended up with this book in our hands.

/

 

[Ritajanice]

I question WHY we believe that the Bible CANNOT contradict itself. ???
Do we really understand where this book came from?
I believe that those who claim no contradiction do NOT understand
how we ended up with this book in our hands.

/

There is an awful lot in Gods word that I don’t understand.....

Isn’t the Bible inspired by the “ Living “ word of God?

It was written by people who God chose to speak out his Living word?

In other words God spoke through them and they wrote it down, pretty amazing don’t you think....same as he speaks to our spirit through his Spirit...

How long ago was it written?

So much of it I do understand “ now” but, I’ve had to wait for the witness of the Holy Spirit to reveal Gods truth to my spirit....of course again this is just my POV,xx

 

[Wynona]

Are claiming that you do not have eternal security?

Yes. Salvation has conditions.