The disastrous failure of the early church

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John Zain

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I started this thread as a heads-up to encourage believers to BELIEVE
their God will come to their rescue in times of great need ...
and answer their prayers for a miracle.

I.E. the days of signs, wonders, and miracles have NOT ceased.

All that is required is to replace UNBELIEF with BELIEF, i.e. FAITH.

Almighty GOD is alive and well on planet earth!
 

Spirit Covenant

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Do you have any evidence to back up your opinions in Title and the OP?

All you have to do is know history. Knowing what God is doing would also help.

The first Church was killed and martyred so that the truth would vanish and come to what it is today. The Day Of Wrath.
 

Mungo

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All you have to do is know history. Knowing what God is doing would also help.

The first Church was killed and martyred so that the truth would vanish and come to what it is today. The Day Of Wrath.

Do you have any evidence to back up your opinions?
 

John Zain

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John, is a fascination with signs and wonders a dangerous thing?
John, are you not in the least concerned about your movement tapping into the wrong power source?

Yes, fascination is rather dangerous ... but the NT church and people like me have NO fascination.
I am part of NO movement ... except ... doing things that Jesus commanded and what the NT church did.

Almost everyone I talk to about this have their eyes on MAN instead of on GOD.
Seems they are afraid of being deceived ... like so many have been.

Da qvestion is ... What about the NT church?
Satan was present ... and they were warned about him.
Fear didn't stop them from doing God's will.

Believers were supposed to continue on the same as them.
We today are supposed to continue on being just like the NT churches!

Re: the churches who are acting crazy and saying it's the Holy Spirit:
I have no idea what their problem is ... I'm not part of any of that.

This troubles me a bit

Does this (in the OP) trouble you also?

To those of you who have been taught that God no longer works through man with S-W-M,
… can Sauls turn into Pauls, can new wine work in old wine skins?

Also, in the days ahead, you probably will find yourself in need of a miracle from God.
You need to have strong FAITH that God really is a God of miracles today!
 

Rex

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Does this (in the OP) trouble you also?

To those of you who have been taught that God no longer works through man with S-W-M,
… can Sauls turn into Pauls, can new wine work in old wine skins?

Also, in the days ahead, you probably will find yourself in need of a miracle from God.
You need to have strong FAITH that God really is a God of miracles today!

no
 

neophyte

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Still waiting on your Bible answers to this -"The first Church was killed and martyred so that the truth would vanish and come to what it is today. The Day Of Wrath' So you are saying that your words are superior to our Lord's Words when He promised that "... the gates of hell shall not prevail against it..." Show Book, Chapter, Verse please where Jesus either changed His mind, made a mistake or lied ?






.
 

epostle1

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Yes, fascination is rather dangerous ... but the NT church and people like me have NO fascination.
I am part of NO movement ... except ... doing things that Jesus commanded and what the NT church did.

Almost everyone I talk to about this have their eyes on MAN instead of on GOD.
Seems they are afraid of being deceived ... like so many have been.

Da qvestion is ... What about the NT church?
Satan was present ... and they were warned about him.
Fear didn't stop them from doing God's will.

Believers were supposed to continue on the same as them.
We today are supposed to continue on being just like the NT churches!

Re: the churches who are acting crazy and saying it's the Holy Spirit:
I have no idea what their problem is ... I'm not part of any of that.



Does this (in the OP) trouble you also?

To those of you who have been taught that God no longer works through man with S-W-M,
… can Sauls turn into Pauls, can new wine work in old wine skins?

Also, in the days ahead, you probably will find yourself in need of a miracle from God.
You need to have strong FAITH that God really is a God of miracles today!

How can you say we must be like the New Testament church when you reject the unanimous teachings found in the writings of the 1st 3 centuries of Christianity?

“'...thou art Peter and upon this rock I will build my Church' ... It is on him that he builds the Church, and to him that he entrusts the sheep to feed. And although he assigns a like power to all the apostles, yet he founded a single Chair, thus establishing by his own authority the source and hallmark of the (Church's) oneness...If a man does not fast to this oneness of Peter, does he still imagine that he still holds the faith. If he deserts the Chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, has he still confidence that he is in the Church?”
Cyprian, De Unitate Ecclesiae (Primacy text), 4 (A.D. 251).

Was Cyprian a Christian?

"See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Christ Jesus does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles. Do ye also reverence the deacons, as those that carry out the appointment of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude also be; by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church."
Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Smyrneans, 8:2 (c. A.D. 110).

Ignatius, student of John the Apostle, ordained by Peter, third bishop of Antioch, was he a Christian?

"[A]ll the people wondered that there should be such a difference between the unbelievers and the elect, of whom this most admirable Polycarp was one, having in our own times been an apostolic and prophetic teacher, and bishop of the Catholic Church which is in Smyrna. For every word that went out of his mouth either has been or shall yet be accomplished."
Martyrdom of Polycarp, 16:2 (A.D. 155).

"This gave occasion for an Ecumenical Council, that the feast might be everywhere celebrated on one day, and that the heresy which was springing up might be anathematized. It took place then; and the Syrians submitted, and the Fathers pronounced the Arian heresy to be the forerunner of Antichrist, and drew up a suitable formula against it. And yet in this, many as they are, they ventured on nothing like the proceedings of these three or four men. Without pre-fixing Consulate, month, and day, they wrote concerning Easter, 'It seemed good as follows,' for it did then seem good that there should be a general compliance; but about the faith they wrote not, 'It seemed good,' but, 'Thus believes the Catholic Church;' and thereupon they confessed how they believed, in order to shew that their own sentiments were not novel, but Apostolical; and what they wrote down was no discovery of theirs, but is the same as was taught by the Apostles."
Athanasius, Councils of Ariminum & Seleucia, 5( A.D. 362).

Was Athanasius a Protestant?

source of quotes, more here

It would be a good idea to find out how the early church managed to convert the whole Roman Empire after 300 years of severe persecution, and without a Bible. Your problem is that you have never studied the early church, and have yielded to man made myths concerning her. Either that, or you cannot discern historical fact from historical fiction and have no business starting a thread on a topic you know little or nothing about. Fundamentalist censorship of the Early Church Fathers has weakened in this age of information, and it would be a good idea to find out why anti-Catholics are so afraid of them.
 

THE Gypsy

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Some one bump the jukebox, that bad records skipping again.

SMCOTS on that one!
smilie_girl_320.gif
 

Groundzero

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oh no it has everything to do with the OP. i am in direct oposition to the OP. and it's funny that as soon as i start stepping on toes you simply write off my post as not in correlation with the OP.
sounds like you are hiding behind the Sings and Wonders movement instead of exposing the fact that this fascination with signs and wonders is dangerous.

Well it's funny that you write me off like that, because you haven't stepped on my toes at all. I believe John has already emphatically stated that he isn't fascinated with signs and miracles, but rather that the Christian movement's wrong and harmful attitude towards S-W-M. Correct me if I'm wrong John.

Me hiding? Rofl. Ok, let me match your little statement. It seems like you are hiding behind a verse that you have pulled out of context and refuse to consider again so that you may hold onto your cherished beliefs, even in the face of contradiction.

Mar 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
Mar 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

Joh 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

1Th 5:19 Quench not the Spirit.
 

John Zain

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How can you say we must be like the New Testament church when you reject the unanimous teachings
found in the writings of the 1st 3 centuries of Christianity?

Sorry, by the NT church ... I mean the church we read about in the NT.

This type of church steadily declined (re: the belief in S-W-M) over the next 1800 years ...
but it probably was not a steady constant decline, and it certainly was not an exponential one.
I.E. Sorry, I could give you a day-by-day historical account, but I just don't have the time!

By the end of da 17th C. (the 1800's), there was basically no belief in S-W-M left at all.

Then in the very early 1900's, God began pouring out His Spirit upon all flesh.
Something to do with preparing His people for the real end of the end-times!

Peter thought this had began at Pentecost, but maybe da Rock had his timetable mixed up.
If you have read Acts, you saw that Petie was da first leader of da apostles.
It's nice to build on a strong foundation (like a rock) ... and the super Paul came years later!


See, I'm a history expert after all ... aren't you impressed?

Endnote:
As my wife and I walked into the Vatican, she whispered, "There's no Holy Spirit here."
And she doth knoweth what she talketh about ... dost thou?
 

epostle1

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Sorry, by the NT church ... I mean the church we read about in the NT.

The Church we read about in the NT didn't have a NT. The NT didn't start the Church.


This type of church steadily declined (re: the belief in S-W-M) over the next 1800 years ...
but it probably was not a steady constant decline, and it certainly was not an exponential one.
I.E. Sorry, I could give you a day-by-day historical account, but I just don't have the time!

By the end of da 17th C. (the 1800's), there was basically no belief in S-W-M left at all.

Then in the very early 1900's, God began pouring out His Spirit upon all flesh.
Something to do with preparing His people for the real end of the end-times!

Not true. There are thousands of documented SMW in every century. Here's an example:

51d9zyAbLrL._SL500_AA300_.jpg


Saints Who Raise the Dead: True Stories of 400 Resurrection Miracles

Scientific Evidence for Miracles


Peter thought this had began at Pentecost, but maybe da Rock had his timetable mixed up.
If you have read Acts, you saw that Petie was da first leader of da apostles.
It's nice to build on a strong foundation (like a rock) ... and the super Paul came years later!


See, I'm a history expert after all ... aren't you impressed?

Paul served his apostleship under Christ and Peter. The theory that Paul was somehow over Peter fails at every turn.


Endnote:
As my wife and I walked into the Vatican, she whispered, "There's no Holy Spirit here."
And she doth knoweth what she talketh about ... dost thou?


The Holy Spirit can't operate in a climate of prejudice. You didn't walk in to the Vatican looking for beauty, you walked in looking for an excuse.
 

Rex

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An other sandwich-board catholic add
Well I've heard it said that If you say it enough times people begin to believe it.
Strange form of witness you have their kepha. Strange brew indeed.
 

John Zain

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(1) The Church we read about in the NT didn't have a NT. The NT didn't start the Church.

(2) The Holy Spirit can't operate in a climate of prejudice.
You didn't walk in to the Vatican looking for beauty, you walked in looking for an excuse.

#1 shows just how ridiculous you really are.

#2 is just plain wrong, I guarantee you ... Do you have any idea who the Holy Spirit is?
 

turzovka

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Nov 20, 2012
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I must have answered this one a thousand times, but thanks for #1001.

WHY would Satan perform S-W-M when a Christian prays for one "in the name of Jesus"?
People come to the Lord this way.
People get healed of all kinds of things this way.
And Jesus gets all of the glory ... forevermore.
But, not from you.

P.S. I was called by the Lord 18 years ago to be an evangelist in the small Bulgarian villages.
He baptized me with the Holy Spirit and gave me some of the 9 spiritual gifts.
I used these gifts to evangelize, to be used in healing and in the casting out of demons.
Praise be to Jesus ... is all I have to say.


That's wonderful, you were called to witness for Christ to so many of us who need spiritual guidance. Amen.

But it appears the Spirit also called you to teard down anything resembling a Christian spirit that does not align itself properly with yours?

What did Jesus mean when he said to the apostles protesting others preaching "leave them alone. if they are not against us they are for us."?

What did Jesus mean when he said Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted? Was it only those who understood the Holy Spirit and Biblical teachings as you do?

What did Jesus mean when He said “Blessed are the merciful, for they shall receive mercy?” Was it only those who understood the Holy Spirit and Biblical teachings as you do?

What did Jesus mean when He said Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God? Was it only those who understood the Holy Spirit and Biblical teachings as you do?

Your "Church" is too pure for me. Too exclusive. My Church is made up of sinners.
 

teamventure

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Sep 6, 2011
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Well it's funny that you write me off like that, because you haven't stepped on my toes at all. I believe John has already emphatically stated that he isn't fascinated with signs and miracles, but rather that the Christian movement's wrong and harmful attitude towards S-W-M. Correct me if I'm wrong John.

Me hiding? Rofl. Ok, let me match your little statement. It seems like you are hiding behind a verse that you have pulled out of context and refuse to consider again so that you may hold onto your cherished beliefs, even in the face of contradiction.

Mar 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
Mar 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

Joh 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

1Th 5:19 Quench not the Spirit.

here let me clarify something. my problem isn't with the mere idea of signs and wonders like the verses you quoted.
my problem is with the current signs and wonders movement.

http://www.trueoutpouring.com/exposing-the-truth-behind-signs-wonders-movement/

Many of these people are experimenting into new age paganistic rituals mixed with Christianity, and just because they are preaching in the Name Of Jesus, doesn’t mean they are really doing His Work

http://www.jeremiahproject.com/prophecy/charis1.html

i used to attend a S W M type church.
from my observation these churches rely more on experience than the word of God.
that's the first danger of the signs and wonders movement.
 

Groundzero

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Jul 20, 2011
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here let me clarify something. my problem isn't with the mere idea of signs and wonders like the verses you quoted.
my problem is with the current signs and wonders movement.

http://www.trueoutpo...nders-movement/

Many of these people are experimenting into new age paganistic rituals mixed with Christianity, and just because they are preaching in the Name Of Jesus, doesn’t mean they are really doing His Work

http://www.jeremiahp...cy/charis1.html

i used to attend a S W M type church.
from my observation these churches rely more on experience than the word of God.
that's the first danger of the signs and wonders movement.

You just can't explain to some people. I don't belong to a S W M type of church. I belong to a church that believes the Bible. And when Jesus declares that those who follow him would be filled with his power, and that this power would bring the supernatural, then I'm not going to throw it out, no matter how many people abuse and fake it.
You can get rid of signs, miracles, and what not, but that will never change anything. I'd rather live a life of power and victory through Jesus, then a dead life, trying to be a so-called Christian who doesn't have the Spirit of God inside him changing every part of him.
 

teamventure

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Sep 6, 2011
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You just can't explain to some people. I don't belong to a S W M type of church. I belong to a church that believes the Bible. And when Jesus declares that those who follow him would be filled with his power, and that this power would bring the supernatural, then I'm not going to throw it out, no matter how many people abuse and fake it.
You can get rid of signs, miracles, and what not, but that will never change anything. I'd rather live a life of power and victory through Jesus, then a dead life, trying to be a so-called Christian who doesn't have the Spirit of God inside him changing every part of him.

your post implies that someone isn't saved if they haven't been so called "baptized in the holy spirit." am i right?
that is the most unscriptural fantasy i have ever heard.