Genesis 14 and Psalm 110

[Pancho Frijoles]

Yes.

Have you heard what my enemies here say about me? They (mis)apply 2 Corinthians 11: 11-15 to me. The preacher appears to be a wonderful person but is really a wolf in sheep’s clothing. The fruit looks good on the surface but is actually rotten.

I need no pit up no defense against them. Time and Jesus will prove them right or wrong.

You do not look like a wolf in sheep's clothing to me. :)
But I get your point.... The very same thing has been said about me in the forum I participated in the past.

When Paul finishes talking about false teachers in verse 15, he says "Their end will be what their actions deserve."
So, Paul assumes that their actions are not good, and it is, in the end, actions what get rewarded.

When Paul says that Satan masquerades as an angel of light, he was not referring about the power to transform a life. That cannot be imitated. He was thinking in eloquent words, cunning arguments, miracles, actions that can seem generous, or even physical appeal. All that can be imitated.
But those wolfs cannot imitate the action of the Holy Spirit.

When I refer to a generous person, certainly I am not referring to a phony, fake generosity. We know what we are talking about, right?

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Here’s a link to one of the programs. You won’t need to watch the whole program in order to get the concept ... but you might want to!

I'll watch it tomorrow, my friend.
I'm afraid I will call it a day. Let´s keep talking tomorrow... and thanks for your patience and intelligent arguments!

 

[Matthias]

Sure, but my question is how you would preach Jesus to such a person to try to persuade him/her, if at all possible?

I would let Jesus preach Jesus to such a person.

Well, a demon offers him pleasures, wealth or popularity in this life.
So, why should that person reject what the demons are offering in this life, in exchange for some invisible life in the future to come?

Indeed. What demons offer has an expiration date. What Jesus offers has no expiration date.

Jesus offers immortality and all that comes with it, reigning with him as kings and priests on the earth.

 

[Matthias]

You do not look like a wolf in sheep's clothing to me. :)

1. That won’t persuade my enemies.
2. Don’t let your guard down. (I’ve witnessed people go rogue.)
3. Things aren’t always what they appear to be.*

But I get your point.... The very same thing has been said about me in the forum I participated in the past.

When I was still teaching I required my students to join and participate on internet discussion forums. They were given a list of forums pre-approved by me and required to chose one. (Forums not on the list could be added upon request, pending my approval.) Students spent one hour per week, each week for the semester, engaging in conversation on any subject they wanted to on the forum they selected and keeping a journal documenting their work. Students absolutely hated it! They came to call it the “gutter assignment”. Their aspiration in most cases was to work in ministry. Some decided at that end of the semester that they wanted to do something else instead. They were appalled at the way people treated one another, especially people who self-identified as Christian. I was interested in how they were treated but more interested in how they responded to it. Many of them had a lot of growing up to do. I was there to help them do it.

When Paul finishes talking about false teachers in verse 15, he says "Their end will be what their actions deserve."
So, Paul assumes that their actions are not good, and it is, in the end, actions what get rewarded.

That’s right. Yet it is also right that the false teachers he warned against were successful in leading people astray. From his day to this day, the flock is still subject to the threat of being savaged by wolves in disguise. It will be that way until the end of the present age.

When Paul says that Satan masquerades as an angel of light, he was not referring about the power to transform a life. That cannot be imitated. He was thinking in eloquent words, cunning arguments, miracles, actions that can seem generous, or even physical appeal. All that can be imitated.
But those wolfs cannot imitate the action of the Holy Spirit.

They can imitate but they can’t produce the same result.

When I refer to a generous person, certainly I am not referring to a phony, fake generosity. We know what we are talking about, right?

Generous people can be sincere and yet still be deceived and deceivers. Generous people can be sincere and not be deceived and deceivers.

The common denominator is generosity.

P.S.

* Without meaning to cause any offense, I decided to add that someone not of a faith tradition isn’t in the best position to determine who is genuine and who is false in that faith tradition. As Paul demonstrates, it can be difficult even for persons who are in the faith tradition. Paul is instructing people who are in his faith tradition, not those who aren’t. I hope you’ll receive this in the spirit intended. You have a background which leads me to believe that you will. If you didn’t, I wouldn’t have added it.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Indeed. What demons offer has an expiration date. What Jesus offers has no expiration date.

Jesus offers immortality and all that comes with it, reigning with him as kings and priests on the earth.

I think that a successful preaching is that which makes the sinner see what God can do for him/her now, in this life.
Whatever God may have for us in the afterlife, we must die feeling profoundly grateful and blessed from what we got these short years.
The water that Jesus offers, that will forever quench thirst, is to be drunk here.
The rest Jesus offers, is the rest that every person can experience today. (Hebrews 4:6,7)

So, in the context of what we are discussing, in order to help a "demon worshiper", I would first listen to him/her to know what and why he/she is fearful, or angry, or empty... and then, from the perspective of that present "hell", let him/her know how God rescue our lives and change our lives, so that the fruits of that change are experienced here, in this life. I would have to show him/her the works of God in my own life... my example, my own story.

Remember how Jesus healed people from current illnesses and forgave current sins. He constantly preached that the Kingdom of God had come, and was among them. He cast out "demons" during the life of the person, so that they could start living a new life here on earth.

Certainly hope in living in the presence of God after our biological death is important.
Certainly, the Kingdom of God is as much as in the future as in the present.
But what makes people worshiping demons start worshiping God is the possibility of a new life here on this earth.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

* Without meaning to cause any offense, I decided to add that someone not of a faith tradition isn’t in the best position to determine who is genuine and who is false in that faith tradition. As Paul demonstrates, it can be difficult even for persons who are in the faith tradition. Paul is instructing people who are in his faith tradition, not those who aren’t. I hope you’ll receive this in the spirit intended. You have a background which leads me to believe that you will. If you didn’t, I wouldn’t have added it.

No offense at all, my friend.
It is just that I don't completely understand what you mean.

Gandhi, a Hinduist, didn't have to convert to Christianism to appreciate that some so-called Christians were not genuine (and it was in that context that he wrote: "I like your Christ, but I don't like your Christians").
You and I don't have to convert to Islam to know that so-called Muslims that kill innocent people as terrorists are not genuine Muslims. Same with Jews.

Sorry for not getting your point right.

 

[Matthias]

I think that a successful preaching is that which makes the sinner see what God can do for him/her now, in this life.
Whatever God may have for us in the afterlife, we must die feeling profoundly grateful and blessed from what we got these short years.
The water that Jesus offers, that will forever quench thirst, is to be drunk here.
The rest Jesus offers, is the rest that every person can experience today. (Hebrews 4:6,7)

So, in the context of what we are discussing, in order to help a "demon worshiper", I would first listen to him/her to know what and why he/she is fearful, or angry, or empty... and then, from the perspective of that present "hell", let him/her know how God rescue our lives and change our lives, so that the fruits of that change are experienced here, in this life. I would have to show him/her the works of God in my own life... my example, my own story.

Remember how Jesus healed people from current illnesses and forgave current sins. He constantly preached that the Kingdom of God had come, and was among them. He cast out "demons" during the life of the person, so that they could start living a new life here on earth.

Certainly hope in living in the presence of God after our biological death is important.
Certainly, the Kingdom of God is as much as in the future as in the present.
But what makes people worshiping demons start worshiping God is the possibility of a new life here on this earth.

There is no end of ways people can live a new life while worshiping demons. Society is happily entertaining / distracting itself to death.

There is a reason that people worship demons instead of the one God - demons give people what they want, the pleasure of sin.

When I was in college my professors spoke about delivering “Christian living “ sermons - students called them “Play nice with others in the sandbox” sermons.

I’ve spoken on this forum (and others) about how ignorant people tend to be about church history and the details of doctrines like the one that cannot be discussed on this particular forum. Why are people typically ignorant about those things? They aren’t interested in them and they aren’t hearing it from the pulpit.

I’ve asked pastors why they don’t speak about it from the pulpit. Reasons vary, and there are some pastors who do, at least from time to time. There are two common reasons given for not speaking about them that stand out to me: 1. The belief that church attendance would drop if sermons weren’t “Christian living” oriented; and 2. Job security.

I dealt with the first by using dialogue preaching (a method not widely used - it has advantages and disadvantages; my professors hated it and wouldn’t allow it in the classroom) and with the second by refusing to accept a salary or any kind of financial compensation (few in ministry are able to do that - I was in a financial position that allowed me to do it, and it liberated me from the “we are paying you to preach what we want you to preach / what we want to hear”pressure; the congregation wasn’t my employer.)

Preaching sound doctrine is what Paul called for, at the behest of Jesus. I have no affinity for the “doctrine only divides people” crowd and the result of that is seen here from time to time.

 

[Matthias]

No offense at all, my friend.
It is just that I don't completely understand what you mean.

Gandhi, a Hinduist, didn't have to convert to Christianism to appreciate that some so-called Christians were not genuine (and it was in that context that he wrote: "I like your Christ, but I don't like your Christians").
You and I don't have to convert to Islam to know that so-called Muslims that kill innocent people as terrorists are not genuine Muslims. Same with Jews.

Sorry for not getting your point right.

I’ll use an example to elaborate on the point I was trying to make.

I’m a Christian, not a Zoroastrian. I‘ve read some passages from the Avesta. It would be difficult, not to mention inappropriate, for me to instruct a Zoroastrian on what the Avesta teaches or provide an interpretation of the text for the Zoroastrian.

Let me now replace “Zoroastrian” with “Hindu” or “Sikh” or “Muslim” or any other faith tradition outside of my own,and the “Avesta” with the sacred texts of those traditions. It would be difficult, not to mention inappropriate - and, I’ll add, ill advised - for me to instruct those persons on what their writings “really” teach or provide an interpretation of their writings.

A practical example. A few days ago I was reading a trinitarian who was insisting to Muslim readers that the Quran itself actually teaches that the doctrine which must not be discussed on this forum is the true doctrine of the Quran, Muslims just don’t understand that it is because it has been hidden from them by their Imams, and they should place their faith in the “true“ Allah of the Quran.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

I’ve spoken on this forum (and others) about how ignorant people tend to be about church history and the details of doctrines like the one that cannot be discussed on this particular forum. Why are people typically ignorant about those things? They aren’t interested in them and they aren’t hearing it from the pulpit.

Bear with me with this comment, because it applies to many faiths and religions, including mine.

People are ignorant and not interested in topics like "the one cannot be discussed here" ;) because...

• They are hypnotized by the short-term, false "solutions" for their spiritual thirst, represented by the rituals they engage, the smiles they get at church, the general acceptance from the community, job, money, sex, etc.
• Although they do recognize that the "solutions" above are not true solutions, they honestly do not see how the details of the doctrine that cannot be discussed here will help them to quench their spiritual thirst.

Let me ilustrate the situation with this case:
I was asked in the previous forum if I worshiped Jesus.
I replied back: "What does it mean "to worship" Jesus? First tell me what it means, and then I'll tell you if I worship Him or not".
My question ignited a good debate.

Does worshipping Jesus means to honor Him, follow his steps, love Him... do what He asked us to do? If that's the definition of "worshiping Jesus", then I worship Him, I said.

My Evangelical fellows, though, were not satisfied: "Worshiping Jesus also implies to kneel before Him. Would you, Pancho Frijoles, kneel before Him?"
I said: "Yes, for sure I would. But the point is, when in real life do you kneel before Jesus. When you kneel to pray, for example, you pray to the Father in the name of Jesus, isn't that so?"

So, if the physical gesture of kneeling does not equal worship, and loving Him and obeying Him does not equal worship... what does worship mean?

Some said: "Well, it means you will not put anything else above Jesus demands. He will be your number 1 priority"
I replied: Well, since I believe that Jesus demands are those of the Father, I would never hear Jesus asking me anything contrary to His Father's will.

Then they had only one option left to explain what "worshiping" meant. Can you guess what it was?

 

[Matthias]

What happens when Roman Catholics and Protestants dialogue with one another? At this level, it generally turns ugly quickly. Not being Roman Catholic or Protestant myself, what will happen if I were to instruct either of those groups concerning what the Bible teaches?

What happens when Shia and Sunni dialogue with one another? Not being a Muslim, what would happen if I were to instruct either of those groups concerning what the Quran teaches?

A humorous story @Pancho Frijoles. I mentioned that my Muslim co-worker purchased an English translation of the Quran and gave it to me as a gift. One day I was speaking with him about a question I had concerning something written in the Quran. While we were speaking a couple of other Muslims joined us. They asked what we were talking about. I told them that I had read the Quran and had a question about something. They burst out laughing!

My friend quickly silenced them and they walked away snickering. I didn’t understand what happened. Why were they laughing? My friend, who was embarrassed over the incident, explained that they were laughing because they thought it was funny that I said I had read the Quran when I hadn’t. Say what?

My friend told me that I should never tell a Muslim that I had read the Quran unless the time came when I could read it in Arabic. To a Muslim, to read an English (or any other language that isn’t Arabic) translation of the Quran is not the same as reading the Quran.

To put it bluntly, I had embarrassed myself and my friend in front of his friends. They were laughing at me / at us, not with me.

 

[Matthias]

Bear with me with this comment, because it applies to many faiths and religions, including mine.

People are ignorant and not interested in topics like "the one cannot be discussed here" ;) because...

• They are hypnotized by the short-term, false "solutions" for their spiritual thirst, represented by the rituals they engage, the smiles they get at church, the general acceptance from the community, job, money, sex, etc.
• Although they do recognize that the "solutions" above are not true solutions, they honestly do not see how the details of the doctrine that cannot be discussed here will help them to quench their spiritual thirst.

Let me ilustrate the situation with this case:
I was asked in the previous forum if I worshiped Jesus.
I replied back: "What does it mean "to worship" Jesus? First tell me what it means, and then I'll tell you if I worship Him or not".
My question ignited a good debate.

Does worshipping Jesus means to honor Him, follow his steps, love Him... do what He asked us to do? If that's the definition of "worshiping Jesus", then I worship Him, I said.

My Evangelical fellows, though, were not satisfied: "Worshiping Jesus also implies to kneel before Him. Would you, Pancho Frijoles, kneel before Him?"
I said: "Yes, for sure I would. But the point is, when in real life do you kneel before Jesus. When you kneel to pray, for example, you pray to the Father in the name of Jesus, isn't that so?"

So, if the physical gesture of kneeling does not equal worship, and loving Him and obeying Him does not equal worship... what does worship mean?

Then they had only one option left. Only one. Can you guess what it was?

Pancho Frijoles must die.

 

[Matthias]

Now cometh the Zoroastrian … or person of some other faith tradition which isn’t mine @Pancho Frijoles.

Will the person instruct me on what my faith teaches or should teach? Will the person provide me with an interpretation of the Bible? It happens frequently.

Will I respond with violence? No. (Neither verbal nor physical.)

Will I be persuaded? That remains to be seen.

What is the probability? Low, but not zero.

As it works in one direction, so it works in another.

Interfaith dialogue is valuable, but what is its purpose?

 

[Matthias]

I’ll use an example to elaborate on the point I was trying to make.

I’m a Christian, not a Zoroastrian. I‘ve read some passages from the Avesta. It would be difficult, not to mention inappropriate, for me to instruct a Zoroastrian on what the Avesta teaches or provide an interpretation of the text for the Zoroastrian.

Let me now replace “Zoroastrian” with “Hindu” or “Sikh” or “Muslim” or any other faith tradition outside of my own,and the “Avesta” with the sacred texts of those traditions. It would be difficult, not to mention inappropriate - and, I’ll add, ill advised - for me to instruct those persons on what their writings “really” teach or provide an interpretation of their writings.

A practical example. A few days ago I was reading a trinitarian who was insisting to Muslim readers that the Quran itself actually teaches that the doctrine which must not be discussed on this forum is the true doctrine of the Quran, Muslims just don’t understand that it is because it has been hidden from them by their Imams, and they should place their faith in the “true“ Allah of the Quran.

I don’t want to belabor the point @Pancho Frijoles, but another example. Perhaps you have seen this one yourself.

I’ve seen this video posted by Christians (well-meaning but misguided) on numerous internet discussion forums. I’ve seen books, articles and tracts pushing it too.

The premise is false. Isaiah 53 is not forbidden for Jews to read. Jewish commentary on Isaiah 53 is abundant and readily accessible to anyone who wants to read it. I haven’t spoken with a lot of Jews but every Jew I’ve spoken with had read the chapter.*

Is Isaiah 52-53 a forbidden text for Jews? - Protestant Theological University

Isaiah 52-53, about the suffering servant, is not forbidden in traditional Jewish literature. In it, too, these texts are applied to the messiah.

www.pthu.nl

Debunking The Isaiah 53 "Forbidden Chapter” Conspiracy

jewsforjudaism.org

What does it do for the Christian-Jewish relationship? Does it help it or does it harm it?

False premises don’t help relationships, they harm relationships. They don’t tear down walls, they construct them.

* I wish I had a dollar for every time a Christian has asked me if I’ve ever read John 1:1! The more disrespectful among us ask if I’ve ever read the Bible or tell me that I should try reading it sometime. They‘re dialogue killers; poster children for how not to persuade people.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

I’ll use an example to elaborate on the point I was trying to make.

I’m a Christian, not a Zoroastrian. I‘ve read some passages from the Avesta. It would be difficult, not to mention inappropriate, for me to instruct a Zoroastrian on what the Avesta teaches or provide an interpretation of the text for the Zoroastrian.

Thanks for the clarification.
I suppose there is a fine line between "exchanging views" and "instructing", when we are in an Interfaith dialogue.
If at any time I have spoken or acted as trying to "instruct" you or my Christian friends, I apologize sincerely.

Let me explain to you my bias

The Baha'i Faith sees itself as a continuation of Judaism, Zoroastrianism, Christianism and Islam.
We honor those religions and feel comfortable when quoting their sacred texts, and sharing our interpretation of them.

Think in a Christian who is talking to a Jew during an Interfaith conversation. The Christian would feel comfortable in quoting and elaborating around a text in Isaiah. The Jew may think about the Christian: "He is not a Jew. These are our Scriptures, revealed to the nation of Israel, and he cannot know more on Isaiah than Jewish scholars. He can't come here to tell us how to interpret our own religion!".

The same feelings could arise when a Muslim freely quotes the Gospels in a conversation with a Christian, providing his interpretation.

So I understand that this situation arises from time to time, and I am not sure how to handle it.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

False premises don’t help relationships, they harm relationships. They don’t tear down walls, they construct them.

* I wish I had a dollar for every time a Christian has asked me if I’ve ever read John 1:1! The more disrespectful among us ask if I’ve ever read the Bible or tell me that I should try reading it sometime. They‘re dialogue killers; poster children for how not to persuade people.

I totally agree and sympathize with your wish of having a dollar for every time a Christian asks you if you've ever read John 1:1 !!! :)

Funny thing, a Baha'i choir can sing a hymn where the entire lyrics repeats John 1:1 over and over, without feeling uncomfortable at all!
This is it:

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

My friend told me that I should never tell a Muslim that I had read the Quran unless the time came when I could read it in Arabic. To a Muslim, to read an English (or any other language that isn’t Arabic) translation of the Quran is not the same as reading the Quran.

To put it bluntly, I had embarrassed myself and my friend in front of his friends. They were laughing at me / at us, not with me.

It is a pity that those guys laughed at you. They did wrong, not you.

Evidently, when I address my Christians brothers and sisters within their terms, using their texts and premises, I run a big risk of embarrassing myself because of my ignorance. Still, I prefer to engage in the conversation, take the risk and get corrected as many times as needed.
The key, I suppose, is to remain open, transparent and modest.

Now, in regard to Christians feeling challenged in their views by an outsider, they should be able to focus on the arguments, display patience, and not resort to the ad hominem fallacy of "You won't understand this because only Christians can understand these things." or even worse, "You're not redeemed. You're not born again and not my brother. That's why you can't understand my argument".

In addition, perspectives from a person outside of a given religion are relatively naïve, fresh, free from the bonds of commitment to the church or group one belongs to. This help us to rethink why we believe what we believe. It is part of the beauty of Interfaith dialogue.

 

[Matthias]

Thanks for the clarification.
I suppose there is a fine line between "exchanging views" and "instructing", when we are in an Interfaith dialogue.
If at any time I have spoken or acted as trying to "instruct" you or my Christian friends, I apologize sincerely.

Let me explain to you my bias

The Baha'i Faith sees itself as a continuation of Judaism, Zoroastrianism, Christianism and Islam.
We honor those religions and feel comfortable when quoting their sacred texts, and sharing our interpretation of them.

Think in a Christian who is talking to a Jew during an Interfaith conversation. The Christian would feel comfortable in quoting and elaborating around a text in Isaiah. The Jew may think about the Christian: "He is not a Jew. These are our Scriptures, revealed to the nation of Israel, and he cannot know more on Isaiah than Jewish scholars. He can't come here to tell us how to interpret our own religion!".

The same feelings could arise when a Muslim freely quotes the Gospels in a conversation with a Christian, providing his interpretation.

So I understand that this situation arises from time to time, and I am not sure how to handle it.

The Hebrew Bible is shared by two religions (Judaism and Christianity). It makes for an interesting and challenging situation.

I don’t see in the New Testament any extension to a faith which goes beyond it or that is an extension of it. The Baha’i faith goes further than I’m able to go.

There is nothing that prevents a Jew or a Muslim (or even a Baha’i!) from interpreting the Bible for themselves and deciding that it means whatever he or she thinks it does, but it will irritate and aggravate many Christians if / when they do (which isn’t conducive to forming a good relationship) and will not be persuasive to a Christian.

It’s like the trinitarian I mentioned who is telling Muslims that the Quran teaches that the deity of the trinitarian is the deity of the Quran. At best, the Muslim will reject the suggestion out of hand. (The Quran is explicit in what it has to say about the deity of the trinitarian.) At worst, the trinitarian will be seen guilty in the eyes of the Muslim of blaspheming Allah. (That can incur serious consequences.)

What we’re talking about with interfaith dialogue is shown to be in practice a potentially explosive situation.

I don’t recall now where I heard this but, somewhere along the way, someone said on the subject of interfaith dialogue (I think it was in response to a question, so I’ll frame it that way): “How do you handle dynamite?” Very carefully.”

I don’t want to alarm you but there are people running around with dynamite in their hands and they aren’t handling it carefully!

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Pancho Frijoles must die.

They ended up saying "worshiping Jesus means that you believe that Jesus is xxx "
They ended up with an intellectual assertion detached from any practical action, any change in daily life.
Detached, because worshiping was not about loving, honoring, obeying Jesus. Not about abandoning everything and following his steps.
It was not about living the life of Jesus but about an intellectual assertion about Jesus.

This is the situation when I wonder... ¿How relevant, in terms of salvation, of spiritual transformation, is to believe A or to believe B?
This is the situation when I join James in his epistle when he challenges us: "Show me your faith by your works". If you can't translate a doctrinal difference into a difference in the way you live, then such difference is not relevant for salvation. I'm not saying it is not relevant at all. I'm just saying not for salvation.

 

[Matthias]

I totally agree and sympathize with your wish of having a dollar for every time a Christian asks you if you've ever read John 1:1 !!! :)

Shared text, different understanding. I think easily resolved by appealing to Jesus.

Funny thing, a Baha'i choir can sing a hymn where the entire lyrics repeats John 1:1 over and over, without feeling uncomfortable at all!
This is it:

Thanks. They sing well and many Christians would be able to agree with the lyrics, as long as the identity of “him” isn’t pressed.

I would draw from one of any of the English translations published prior to 1611 -> the Geneva Bible, for example. (The word was made by “it,” not by “him”. Do you see the difference that makes?)

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

The Hebrew Bible is shared by two religions (Judaism and Christianity). It makes for an interesting and challenging situation.

I don’t see in the New Testament any extension to a faith which goes beyond it or that is an extension of it. The Baha’i faith goes further than I’m able to go.



What we’re talking about with interfaith dialogue is shown to be in practice a potentially explosive situation.

Well, the Jew doesn't see in the Tanakh any extension to a faith like Christianism. No authority whatsoever in the New Testament.
So, if you consider conversations between Jews and Christians interesting, conversations with Muslims and Baha'i could also be interesting.

So yes, dialogue between Jews and Christians could be a potentially explosive situation... and in the past has led to destructive attitudes.
Still, good Jews and good Christians are able to engage in respectful conversations and in common projects for their communities or countries.
Catholics, for example, may see Jews as their "elder brothers". I'm not inventing this. These are the words of the Pope.