Genesis 14 and Psalm 110

[Pancho Frijoles]

They were wicked because they didn’t believe Jesus and the one true God (i.e. Yahweh) who sent him.

The same would be true of an excellent Jewish dentist who doesn’t believe Jesus and his God.

No, sir.
I firmly disagree, based on reason and the Scriptures in which you believe.

FALSE PROPOSITION: Those Jews were wicked because they didn't believe in the Light that came into the world.
TRUE PROPOSITION: Those Jews didn't believe in the Light that came into the world, because they were wicked.

The Scripture is clear. I will repeat it again, now using the 21 Century King James translation and going all the way to the next verse:

And this is the condemnation: that Light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.​

For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light, so that his deeds will not be exposed.​

There is no other way around it, Matthias.
If you have learned errors, consider the opportunity to unlearn.

 

[Matthias]

The text you are quoting, my friend, contains the words of Jesus against wicked Jews. Jews who were trying to kill him. Jews who didn't do the deeds of Abraham.
Those words were not pronounced against righteous Jews who still hadn't come to conclude anything about His nature, mission, etc. In the context of the Gospel, rejecting Jesus is to reject his Message of repentance, remain deliberately doing evil things. Please look: "The Light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the Light; for their deeds were evil." (John 3:19)

I invite you to read the whole passage you have referred us to from John 8. I have made a concise transcription here and highlighted in green the words that indicate who were those Jews Jesus was accusing of not being from God.

I know that you are Abraham’s descendants; yet you are seeking to kill Me, because My word has no place in you. I speak of the things which I have seen with My Father; therefore you also do the things which you heard from your father.”​

They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.” ​

Jesus *said to them, “If you are Abraham’s children, do the deeds of Abraham. But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, ...this Abraham did not do. You are doing the deeds of your father.” ​

They said to Him, “...we have one Father: God.” ​

Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I came forth from God and am here; for I have not even come on My own, but He sent Me. Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot listen to My word. You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, ... The one who is of God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not hear them, because you are not of God.”​

... Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him, but Jesus hid Himself and left the temple grounds.​

​

In conclusion, if you are blessed with having a dentist who happens to be a Jew, and lives as Christ lived, bearing the fruits that come from the spirit, you would have absolutely NO GROUND to use this passage to say that he/she is worshiping other God than the God Christ adored.

View attachment 46391

Which resurrection will the unbelieving Jewish dentist be found? The second resurrection.

How will he be judged by his fellow Jew, Jesus of Nazareth, the Messiah, sent by his God?

I leave that in the capable hands of the Messiah.

 

[Matthias]

No, sir.
I firmly disagree, based on reason and the Scriptures in which you believe.

FALSE PROPOSITION: Those Jews were wicked because they didn't believe in the Light that came into the world.
TRUE PROPOSITION: Those Jews didn't believe in the Light that came into the world, because they were wicked.

The Scripture is clear. I will repeat it again, now using the 21 Century King James translation:
And this is the condemnation: that Light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

There is no other way around it, Matthias.
If you have learned errors, consider the opportunity to unlearn.

It’s fine to disagree. Jesus called it plain. They rejected him as the Messiah (promised, raised up and sent by the Father) and claimed that their God is the Father. He corrected them on both matters. Their remedy was to repent of their unbelief.

The hypothetical Jewish dentist you described is confronted with the same issue and has the same remedy available. I would counsel repentance, but that is something that our skilled Jewish dentist must decide to do or not to do.

 

[Matthias]

You are NOT the Messiah promised by the God of Israel = your God is not the God of Israel, but the devil.

So said the unbelieving Jews to Jesus. Readers may need to be reminded that not all Jews were / are unbelieving Jews.

It isn’t Jesus, himself a Jew, whose God is the devil. (His God and Father is Yahweh.) It’s the unbelievers whose god and father is the devil.

My advice to Jews and to gentiles alike: Listen to Jesus. Believe and obey him.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

He corrected them on both matters.

And while correcting them, He explained why.
Jesus explained why they were children of the devil... why God was not their father... why they were not children of Abraham.
Jesus explained why. The same author of the Gospel you're quoting explains why since the very beginning (John 3:19,20).

You, Matthias, know also that "why", because the Holy Spirit whispers it in your heart. Hence your position on conditional immortality... a position that conceives a wider mercy of God, based on criteria you cannot explain nor derive from the theological framework you manage, but that you know exist anyway.

 

[Matthias]

And then, after concluding from your search that Jesus is indeed the Messiah, and that your Jew friend was wrong, what do you end up thinking about the God that your Jew friend worships?

I tell you plainly, as Jesus told them in his day: I end up thinking that their “God” is the devil.

Is it still the same God you worship?

I tell you plainly, no.

I’m a disciple of Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus was accused by some (not all, a critically important point) unbelieving Jews in his day. The modern-day Jew who does not believe that Jesus of Nazareth is the Messiah makes the same accusation against me - something which you neglected to say in your hypothetical - of what they accused him.

They are what they accuse Jesus and, by extension, me of being - a worshiper of the devil, not Yahweh.

I mentioned previously that when I visited the synagogue, on a classroom assignment from my professor, how I was politely ushered out of the service where the cursing of Jesus and, by extension, me, was undertaken. I wasn’t deaf and blind to what they were saying and doing in my brief absence. They kindly spared me, from their perspective, of the experience. They cruelly robbed me, from my perspective, of the experience.

 

[Matthias]

And while correcting them, He explained why.
Jesus explained why they were children of the devil... why God was not their father... why they were not children of Abraham.
Jesus explained why. The same author of the Gospel you're quoting explains why since the very beginning (John 3:19,20).

That is true.

You, Matthias, know also that "why", because the Holy Spirit whispers it in your heart. Hence your position on conditional immortality... a position that conceives a wider mercy of God …

That is also true.

… based on criteria you cannot explain nor derive from the theological framework you manage, but that you know exist anyway.

That isn’t quite true. I explain it by saying that it is either implied or inferred in scripture. What I leave open is the possibility that I might be mistaken about it (which is another reason why I say “or”). I would add to that this: others who believe in conditional immortality and don’t see the wideness as wide as I do, might be mistaken about it. In either case, I leave it up to Jesus. I’m certain that he will act correctly when the time comes.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

The hypothetical Jewish dentist you described is confronted with the same issue and has the same remedy available. I would counsel repentance, but that is something that our skilled Jewish dentist must decide to do or not to do.

If the dentist is producing the fruits of the spirit, then it is undeniable that the dentist has taken the remedy offered by Jesus. Otherwise, he would have doing he works of darkness.

My guess is that you think that a theoretical misunderstanding of Isaiah 53 is an evil from which a person should repent. Well, it is not.
Such view is unsupported by the Scripture and by reason.
Throughout the Bible, from Genesis to Revelation, men are called to repent from evil things: those that are the fruits of the flesh.

In John 3, "Light" does not refer to "orthodox theology", and "darkness" does not refer to "unorthodox theology".

Jesus is mentioned as light because He makes us see that our works are evil and need repentance.
If the Jewish dentist has seen that, and repented, is because he walks under The Light of Christ, regardless of his particular knowledge, interpretation or acceptance of Isaiah 53 under our theology.

So, for the Gospel, an unbeliever is a Jew or Gentile who rejects Jesus' call to repent, love God and love your neighbor.

 

[Matthias]

If the dentist is producing the fruits of the spirit, then it is undeniable that the dentist has taken the remedy offered by Jesus. Otherwise, he would have doing he works of darkness.

It is deniable. The Jewish dentist in your hypothetical denies that Jesus is the Messiah. Denying that Jesus is the Messiah is a work of darkness.

My guess is that you think that a theoretical misunderstanding of Isaiah 53 is an evil from which a person should repent. Well, it is not.
Such view is unsupported by the Scripture and by reason.
Throughout the Bible, from Genesis to Revelation, men are called to repent from evil things: those that are the fruits of the flesh.

In John 3, "Light" does not refer to "orthodox theology", and "darkness" does not refer to "unorthodox theology".

Jesus is mentioned as light because He makes us see that our works are evil and need repentance.
If the Jewish dentist has seen that, and repented, is because he walks under The Light of Christ, regardless of his particular knowledge, interpretation or acceptance of Isaiah 53 under our theology.

So, for the Gospel, an unbeliever is a Jew or Gentile who rejects Jesus' call to repent, love God and love your neighbor.

You’re separating theology from practice. From the perspective the Hebraic mind, the two cannot be separated.

 

[Behold]

Jesus is mentioned as light because

Jesus is not "mentioned" as "light".

Jesus is PROCLAIMED by the NT.... to be "THE Light of the World".
How do you know?

Its because JESUS said this of Himself, in John 8.

Why dont you know this?
-

New International Version
When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, “I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.”

New Living Translation
Jesus spoke to the people once more and said, “I am the light of the world. If you follow me, you won’t have to walk in darkness, because you will have the light that leads to life.”

English Standard Version
Again Jesus spoke to them, saying, “I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.”

Berean Standard Bible
Once again, Jesus spoke to the people and said, “I am the light of the world. Whoever follows Me will never walk in the darkness, but will have the light of life.”

Berean Literal Bible
Therefore Jesus spoke to them again, saying, "I am the light of the world. The onefollowing Me shall not walk in the darkness, but will have the light of life."

King James Bible
Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

New King James Version
Then Jesus spoke to them again, saying, “I am the light of the world. He who follows Me shall not walk in darkness, but have the light of life.”

New American Standard Bible
Then Jesus again spoke to them, saying, “I am the Light of the world; the one who follows Me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the Light of life.”

NASB 1995
Then Jesus again spoke to them, saying, “I am the Light of the world; he who follows Me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the Light of life.”

NASB 1977
Again therefore Jesus spoke to them, saying, “I am the light of the world; he who follows Me shall not walk in the darkness, but shall have the light of life.”

Legacy Standard Bible
Then Jesus again spoke to them, saying, “I am the Light of the world; he who follows Me will never walk in the darkness, but will have the Light of life.”

Amplified Bible
Once more Jesus addressed the crowd. He said, “I am the Light of the world. He who follows Me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the Light of life.”

Christian Standard Bible
Jesus spoke to them again: “I am the light of the world. Anyone who follows me will never walk in the darkness but will have the light of life.”

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Jesus is PROCLAIMED by the NT.... to be "THE Light of the World".
Why dont you know this?

I know. Jesus proclaimed Himself as the Light. When we walk in darkness, Jesus's words and example is a light which show us where to step. That´s why we must follow Him. The purpose of such light is not to make us wonder on whether it is a particle of a wave, or what is its speed in empty space, or what's the nature of photons. The purpose of the light is to enable us to walk. This is clearly conveyed in the beautiful verse you've quoted. Let's read it again:

New International Version
When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, “I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.”

So, accepting Jesus as our Light, means walking the way He walked. This was confirmed later on by the apostle: "the one who says that he remains in Him ought, himself also, walk just as He walked" (1 J 2:6)

As you see from the inspired text itself, accepting Jesus as our Light has nothing to do with understanding the nature of the light, but with following it.

 

[Matthias]

With all that has been said, allow me to give an approving nod to the Jewish rabbis @Pancho Frijoles.

“Jewish rabbis teach that with every recital of the Shema prayer, every Jew accepts the yoke of the kingdom of God upon his shoulders.”

The Jewish Shema: ‘Hear, O Israel’

“Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one! You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength.

www.icej.org

Jesus, himself a Jew, would surely agree with that teaching. The Shema, as is widely noted, is his creed (and mine.)

The academic knowledge is there. The theology is spot on.

So with that in mind, how is it that the unbelieving Jew - who, being observant, zealously recites the creed twice daily (in the evening and in the morning) - still goes wrong?

Even Satan and the demons have the academic knowledge and the theology down pat. They know precisely who the one true God is.

Hell (if you’ll pardon the word play), they even know and believe - unlike those Jews who reject Jesus (we must remember that not every Jew did / does) - that Jesus is the promised Messiah. They’re terrified, and rightly so, of what is coming their way.

Still - as the disciples of Jesus are warned by Paul in 2 Corinthians 11:14 - Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. He can easily produce, for a while and in order to deceive the unwary, the good fruit which you mentioned. It’s a facade.

Going on, Paul says further to disciples of Jesus that it’s not surprising that Satan’s servants (demons, but not only demons) also masquerade as servants of righteousness / light (2 Corinthians 11:15).

God (Yahweh) and the prophet like Moses (Jesus of Nazareth, not Muhammed) see through the facade. The Messiah’s disciples are warned about it.

I’ve mentioned before that one of my favorite passages of scripture is Luke 6:40. It can be applied in a positive way and in a negative way.

Everyone who is fully trained by Jesus and the Apostles will act and sound like Jesus and the Apostles.

Everyone who is fully trained by Satan and the demons will act and sound like Satan and the demons - but there’s a catch; the facade -> 2 Corinthians 11:14-15. The fruit is eventually shown to be what it really is, and what it really is isn’t always what it appears for a while to be.

 

[Matthias]

I know, Matthias. Jesus proclaimed Himself as the Light. When we walk in darkness, Jesus's words and example is a light which show us where to step. That´s why we must follow Him. The purpose of such light is not to make us wonder on whether it is a particle of a wave, or what is its speed in empty space, or what's the nature of photons. The purpose of the light is to enable us to walk. This is clearly conveyed in the beautiful verse you've quoted. Let's read it again:



So, accepting Jesus as our Light, means walking the way He walked. This was confirmed later on by the apostle: "the one who says that he remains in Him ought, himself also, walk just as He walked" (1 J 2:6)

As you see from the inspired text itself, accepting Jesus as our Light has nothing to do with understanding the nature of the light, but with following it. Every single verse you kindly present to us in this Forum, speaks loudly about what salvation and faith in Jesus is all about.

I have a special comment regarding the separation between Theology and Practice, that I would like to share next.

In responding to @Behold with my name you may confuse our readers. I have very little in common with him, and he with me.

My God isn’t the Trinity. He has assured me in writing that his God is the Trinity. I’m taking him at his word.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

You’re separating theology from practice.

Of course I am separating theology from practice. Jesus did it. Yahweh did it. I invite you to do it as well. :) Those people who have been mean and awful to you, Matthias, didn't understand such separation. So, please don't justify their awfulness by making the same mistake.

From the perspective the Hebraic mind, the two cannot be separated.

Which Hebraic mind you are talking about? The one of the scribes and Pharisees? I guess you're right about them. Maybe that's the origin of their neurosis, paranoia, and the frequent warnings of Jesus.

But what was the Hebraic mind of the peasants, the lepers, tax collectors and prostitutes who came to Jesus?
Did the Good Samaritan of Jesus' parable have an Hebraic mind?

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

In responding to @Behold with my name you may confuse our readers. I have very little in common with him, and he with me.

My deep apologies for the confusion, Matthias and @Behold. I have made the edits to my post.

 

[Behold]

That´s why we must follow Him.

If you sincerely want to do that perfectly, then do this.. Reader.

1 Corinthians 11:1

Paul teaches....
-

​

Follow my example, as I follow the example of Christ. New Living Translation And you should imitate me, just as I imitate Christ. English Standard Version Be imitators of me, as I am of Christ. Berean Standard Bible You are to imitate me, just as I imitate Christ. Berean Literal Bible Be imitators of me, as I also am of Christ. King James Bible Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ. New King James Version Imitate me, just as I also imitate Christ. New American Standard Bible Be imitators of me, just as I also am of Christ. NASB 1995 Be imitators of me, just as I also am of Christ. NASB 1977 Be imitators of me, just as I also am of Christ. Legacy Standard Bible Be imitators of me, just as I also am of Christ. Amplified Bible Imitate me, just as I imitate Christ. Christian Standard Bible Imitate me, as I also imitate Christ. Holman Christian Standard Bible Imitate me, as I also imitate Christ. American Standard Version Be ye imitators of me, even as I also am of Christ. Aramaic Bible in Plain English Imitate me just as I also do The Messiah. Contemporary English Version You must follow my example, as I follow the example of Christ. Douay-Rheims Bible BE ye followers of me, as I also am of Christ. English Revised Version Be ye imitators of me, even as I also am of Christ. GOD'S WORD® Translation Imitate me as I imitate Christ. Good News Translation Imitate me, then, just as I imitate Christ. International Standard Version Imitate me, as I do the Messiah. Literal Standard Version Become followers of me, as I also [am] of Christ. Majority Standard Bible You are to imitate me, just as I imitate Christ. New American Bible Be imitators of me, as I am of Christ. NET Bible Be imitators of me, just as I also am of Christ.

 

[Matthias]

Of course I am separating theology from practice.

Agreed.

Jesus did it. Yahweh did it.

On that we do not agree.

I invite you to do it as well. :)

Thank you, I’m certain that you mean well, but I can’t in good conscience accept the invitation.

Those people who have been mean and awful to you, Matthias, didn't understand such separation. So, please don't justify their awfulness by making the same mistake.

They were acting zealously in accordance with their theology. They haven’t harmed me (Genesis 50:20). I’ve been blessed by it (Matthew 5:11).

Perhaps it’s just a coincidence, but I recently watched a television program (“Jews of the Wild West”) on KET (Kentucky Educational Television) that is relevant to your comment. One of the people being interviewed mentioned a marble that the Jewish owner of a particular business required all of his employees to carry with them in their pockets while working. She inherited one of the these marbles and showed it to the camera. It wasn’t a common marble that could be easily purchased. It is called “The Golden Rule marble”. I subsequently located one of these old marbles and purchased it. It arrived in the mail today.

Which Hebraic mind you are talking about? The one of the scribes and Pharisees? I guess you're right about them.

Jesus was able to agree with the scribes and the Pharisees on some matters. (Some scholars suggest - I reject the suggestion -that Jesus himself was a Pharisee.) Some Pharisees eventually came to believe that Jesus of Nazareth is in fact the Messiah. (Paul would be the stellar example, but there were others.)

Maybe that's the origin of their neurosis, paranoia, and the frequent warnings of Jesus.

It isn’t.

But what was the Hebraic mind of the peasants, the lepers, tax collectors and prostitutes who came to Jesus?

The Hebraic mind is the mind of God.

Did the Good Samaritan of Jesus' parable have an Hebraic mind?

The Hebraic mind doesn’t separate theology from practice. Those who don’t have a Hebraic mind may come to have it.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

The Hebraic mind doesn’t separate theology from practice. Those who don’t have a Hebraic mind may come to have it.

If what you mean is that there should be consistency between the good we discuss in a classroom and the good we practice, then I agree with you that Theology should not be separated from practice.

My contention is that most theological errors and most theological ignorance does not lead to an unholy life.
As you said, Jesus in general agreed with the theology of Pharisees and scribes. That was not the problem. The problem was their practice.
Those Scribes and Pharisees, though, couldn't see the gap. Couldn't see the difference. For them, holding the right theology implied piety.
They thought they were pious for what they knew. They were literate, to start with.

 

[Matthias]

If what you mean is that there should be consistency between the good we discuss in a classroom and the good we practice, then I agree with you that Theology should not be separated from practice.

”Classroom” isn’t bad but it doesn’t connote what I had in mind. It’s a little too broad in scope for my intended meaning. Firstly, it causes me to think of my classroom - as both a college student and then, later, as a college professor. Secondly, it causes me to think of instruction by all religions - which is beyond what I was aiming at.

Limiting it to “the classroom of Jesus and the Apostles” resonates well with me.

My contention is that most theological errors and most theological ignorance does not lead to an unholy life.

I often see this contention reflected in the “Just be kind” signs that some people place in their yards in my little corner of God’s good earth.

As you said, Jesus in general agreed with the theology of Pharisees and scribes. That was not the problem. The problem was their practice.

Their practice (good and bad) reflected what was in their heart / mind.

Those Scribes and Pharisees, though, couldn't see the gap. Couldn't see the difference. For them, holding the right theology implied piety.

Holding the right theology does imply piety but, as we have seen with Satan and the demons, it doesn’t always.

They thought they were pious for what they knew. They were literate, to start with.

What they knew is critically important, but knowledge alone isn’t enough.

Your comment on Jewish literacy is interesting. We should be able to agree that literacy wasn’t the exclusive domain of the scribes and Pharisees. Jewish children were taught to read and write in the first century. Percentage estimates concerning those who could vary.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Holding the right theology does imply piety but, as we have seen with Satan and the demons, it doesn’t always.

Here we can come to an agreement, Matthias. Let me know how you feel about this:

It is a mistake to think that Theology has no influence at all on our daily life.
It is also a mistake to think that Theology determines all our daily life.

If we agree with that in principle, our differences are perhaps a matter of grade.
Perhaps you value Theology much more than I do for matters that result in salvation.
Perhaps I give importance to a lower number of doctrines for salvation, say, 3 or 4, while you give it to 9 to 12.

I think we have been able to hold this friendly conversation because in the end of the day you also think that mere theological knowledge without love has little or no value, and I also think that some theological concepts matter a lot, and deserve to be refuted or cultivated.