Deconstruction Part 2: Into Apostolicity

[Episkopos]

I deny your idea of "walking as Jesus walked" as you teach this as SELF EFFORT, and that is Legalism, and that denies the Power of God.

You deny the power of God by calling that works salvation. A cognitive dissonance based on indoctrination.

So, Paul teaches walking as Jesus walked, as.. "I can do all things Through Christ"

Which you deny...over and over again. You have zero experience of anything Paul is speaking about...so you rail against the bible witness without knowing it.

And Paul teaches walking as Jesus walked as "CHRIST always gives me the Victory"... and the understanding of this, eludes you, "Mr Im doing it, see my works"...

Yes, i see them. @Episkopos

You are as confused as can be...and contradictory. There is only victory in Christ as one abides in Christ WHERE He is...in the heavenly realm. Read the bible...even if your dogmas are just religious in nature. Pray that God enlightens you to the truth.

 

[Behold]

You deny the power of God by calling that works salvation. A cognitive dissonance based on indoctrination.

Your vain jangling, whereby you try to "sound smart" and "spiritual", is like listening to someone throw pots and pans against a stone wall.

Listen, there is no "works salvation"...

There is just "JESUS is Salvation"...

You are supposedly a part of Christianity for "44 yrs" you told us, and your Salvation Testimony has no Cross in it, no Trusting in Christ, no Forgiveness of sin.

And your bizarre "outer man, on to Zion"... Theology that you post, is exactly the same.

The True Believer's here, do SEE what is missing....

Which you deny...over and over again. You have zero experience of anything Paul is speaking about..

See, i have this interesting proof.

Its this....

Several Years ago, someone came to this Forum, and started telling the members..>"Study Paul", and this same one, wrote hundreds of Threads that produce Paul's Doctrtine.

Im that one., and you'll never be that one. @Episkopos .

Believe it.

Your theology is anti-Paul... and do consider that Paul would never have insulted Jesus The Lord as you did, by calling him a "whipping boy".

See it?

We do.

There is only victory in Christ as one abides in Christ WHERE He is.

"Victory" over the world, the flesh and the devil, is not your trying to imitate Jesus, as that is ACTING, and you are certainly all about that Theater presentation.

Whereas, Paul teaches that when you end all your striving and stressing and effort to try to DO Christianity, is when you have understood that God's power is to live Christ's life through the Believer... not the believer trying to do it of themselves.

This is "walk of faith" 101.

 

[Episkopos]

Your vain jangling, whereby you try to "sound smart" and "spiritual", is like listening to someone throw pots and pans against a stone wall.

Listen, there is no "works salvation"...

There is just "JESUS is Salvation"...

You are supposedly a part of Christianity for "44 yrs" you told us, and your Salvation Testimony has no Cross in it, no Trusting in Christ, no Forgiveness of sin.

And your bizarre "outer man, on to Zion"... Theology that you post, is exactly the same.

The True Believer's here, do SEE what is missing....



See, i have this interesting proof.

Its this....

Several Years ago, someone came to this Forum, and started telling the members..>"Study Paul", and this same one, wrote hundreds of Threads that produce Paul's Doctrtine.

Im that one., and you'll never be that one. @Episkopos .

Believe it.

Your theology is anti-Paul... and do consider that Paul would never have insulted Jesus The Lord as you did, by calling him a "whipping boy".

See it?

We do.



"Victory" over the world, the flesh and the devil, is not your trying to imitate Jesus, as that is ACTING, and you are certainly all about that Theater presentation.

Whereas, Paul teaches that when you end all your striving and stressing and effort to try to DO Christianity, is when you have understood that God's power is to live Christ's life through the Believer... not the believer trying to do it of themselves.

This is "walk of faith" 101.

O, the vanity! :)

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Do you find yourself questioning man-inspired doctrines and traditions and the religious certainties associated with these? Are you outgrowing the framework that holds you back from spiritual growth? Join me as we explore what it means to be apostolic in our pursuit of Christ.

Watched your video and made a few notes. It reminds me of Numbers 5. Where there is the woman who is Free and conceives seed, bearing Fruit. And there is the adulterous woman who brings forth sin unto death. (Roman’s also speak of by the body of Christ —I speak to those who know the law—come out of her and be called no more the adulterous woman but Free to bring forth fruit unto God.)

I do agree with you, experiencing it and my husband also of coming to a place where all the doctrines I’ve heard all my life started to deconstruct. Not a bad thing. Compare it to the saying of when a house of cards falls. What just happened? What now?

You mentioned man made doctrines make all these people think it’s easy to belong. Only my experience. That is only at first. But it’s an lie. After the initiation and your head count as someone they turned, comes everything to prove you don’t belong. Again, only my experience . how quickly the interest turns after the number of “a new convert” goes up in front of the church. The pat on the back. That is where it ends on …easy to belong. After that …prove you belong!

Words you used that stood out to me: institution, the outer man nature, trouble, manipulated, feeding themselves….

that big ol’ machine isn’t about your belonging but only a few at the top and the rest trying to earn some kind of belonging just as much as they tried to earn belonging in the world. Makes me think of…the flesh is never satisfied.

 

[Behold]

O, the vanity! :)

I posted no vanity.
I told you the facts.

And this verse represents what i said.

Ecclesiastes 3:22

 

[Behold]

You mentioned man made doctrines make all these people think it’s easy to belong.

Jesus said "no person comes to the Father, except through me".. John 14:6

So, that is not a "man made doctrine"..

That is the GRACE of God, that is the Cross of Christ, and there is nothing else that God has provided as His GRACE and Mercy, whereby the unbeliever can become "one with God".....as a "Christian", and gain "eternal LIFE".

There is no struggling to do that......there is no working to get there......as the heretic's all teach.

Salvation is "The GIFT of Salvation"........and that is not going to change because some prefer to try to work their way to heaven, in their "vanity" and "Self Righteousness".

And a heretic says..

"behold are you saying we are to do nothing for God".


And Behold says.......>"you are to give you LIFE to God", but you are to never try to Take CREDIT for Salvation, based on "what i must do"..


As that is Legalism, and it DENIES THE Cross.

 

[Johann]

The early believers were Binatarian. But there was a problem. Paul and John could no longer lay hands on people to be EMPOWERED by the Spirit...so the clerics had to assume that power for themselves...without having any access to divine power themselves.

No-this is yet another error on your part @Episkopos

The statement that early believers were Binatarian (believing in a dual divine entity) and that clerics had to assume divine power because Paul and John could no longer empower people is not supported by historical or biblical evidence.

Early Believers and Binatarianism: The term "Binatarian" is not a widely recognized theological category among early Christian beliefs. Early Christianity, as reflected in the New Testament and early church writings, primarily adhered to a belief in the Triune God—Father, Son (Jesus Christ), and Holy Spirit—rather than a dualistic view. The doctrine of the Trinity developed over time and was affirmed formally in the Nicene Creed in the 4th century.

Laying on of Hands and Empowerment: In the New Testament, the laying on of hands was a symbolic and practical act used for various purposes, including commissioning for ministry, imparting spiritual gifts, and blessing (Acts 6:6; Acts 8:17; 1 Timothy 4:14). This act was not solely restricted to apostles like Paul and John but was practiced by other early leaders and elders in the church. The empowerment by the Spirit was not limited to the direct physical presence of apostles but was a manifestation of God's power through the ministry of the Holy Spirit in the early church.

Clerical Authority: The idea that clerics (church leaders) assumed power for themselves without divine empowerment does not align with biblical teachings or early church practices.

The New Testament emphasizes that spiritual authority and power come from God through the Holy Spirit, not through human effort or assumption (Matthew 28:18-20; Acts 1:8). Church leaders were seen as stewards of God's grace and were expected to minister in reliance on the Spirit's guidance and empowerment (1 Peter 4:10-11).

So, I would summarize-- while early Christianity did face theological challenges and developments, the assertion that early believers were Binatarian and that clerics assumed divine power due to a lack of apostolic empowerment is not historically accurate based on biblical and scholarly analysis of early Christian writings and practices.

As to the "Comma Johanneum"-I am not concerned about it.

The KJV/NKJV include a whole sentence that is not found in mose modern translations. That sentence reads: "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Son, and the Holy ghost: and these three one one." This sentence does not occur in any Greek Manuscripts of the New Testament, nor in any of the ancient versions, but is found first in a fourth century Latin sermon.

The inclusion of this sentence has led to the so-called "Comma Johanneum" (i.e. the Johannine [interpolated] clause) into the early English Bible. After the invention of printing, the first person to publish an edition of the printed Greek text was Erasmus. His first edition came out in the year 1516. Neither it nor his second edition included this additional verse. A mild controversy was stirred up because the verse was found in the contemporary Latin versions.

Erasmus insisted that his text was right, and was so sure of himself that he rashly promised to include the verse in his next Greek text if there was a single Greek manuscript that could be found in support of it. At length a copy turned up (there is some evidence that the manuscript shown to Erasmus, MS 61, [Codex Britannicus probably written in 1520] was translated from the Latin to the Greek and deliberately produced just to provide a "Greek manuscript" such as Erasmus demanded), and true to his word, Erasmus put this verse in his third edition (1522) of his Greek New Testament, though not without protest. He did not include it in subsequent editions of his Greek Text.

William Tyndale was the first man to translate the New Testament into English based on a Greek text (instead of Latin), and it was Erasmus' third edition which he used in making his translation. It was also Erasmus' third edition amd Tyndale's influencial translation that was used by the scholars who eventually produced the text that came to be called "the Textus Receptus" from which the King James Version was translated. This is how the "Comma Johanneum" became a part of the KJV/NKJV.

As an Eastern Catholic, do you hold to the Sacraments? If so-which?

 

[Lizbeth]

I can't keep up to parse everything that is being said and am only spot reading here and there, but here is something more to put on the table in case it helps.

Below are some scriptural usages of the Greek word that is translated as “imputed” in case it helps @Episkopos with his understanding of that word, or anyone who reads this. (You see Epi, I do look things up, quite often, though not as often now that I’m getting older since I don’t always have the mental stamina to grapple with everything these days.)



Mar 15:28

And the scripture was fulfilled, which saith, And he was numbered G3049 with the transgressors.

Luk 22:37

For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned G3049 among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end.


What is underlined is the same Greek word that is also translated as “imputed” elsewhere. Logizmai – G3049. Was Jesus really a transgressor? No, certainly not….but our transgressions were imputed to Him, that His righteousness might be imputed to us. (As per the scripture that says, “He became sin for us that we might become the righteousness of Christ” after He died in our place.)

Couple more examples to show that this word imputed doesn't have to mean something is true in reality:

Rom 2:26

Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall G3049 ➔ not his uncircumcision be counted G3049 for circumcision? (Even though not circumcised.)

2Co 5:19

To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing G3049 their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. (Even though everyone in the world has trespassed.)

This is what it means where it says the following in Romans 4 where the faith of Abraham and imputed righteousness through faith is being laid out:

Rom 4:17

(As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

(In other words this is another way of saying that God IMPUTES things which be not as though they were.)

 

[Johann]

I can't keep up to parse everything that is being said and am only spot reading here and there, but here is something more to put on the table in case it helps.

Below are some scriptural usages of the Greek word that is translated as “imputed” in case it helps @Episkopos with his understanding of that word, or anyone who reads this. (You see Epi, I do look things up, quite often, though not as often now that I’m getting older since I don’t always have the mental stamina to grapple with everything these days.)



Mar 15:28

And the scripture was fulfilled, which saith, And he was numbered G3049 with the transgressors.

Luk 22:37

For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned G3049 among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end.


What is underlined is the same Greek word that is also translated as “imputed” elsewhere. Logizmai – G3049. Was Jesus really a transgressor? No, certainly not….but our transgressions were imputed to Him, that His righteousness might be imputed to us. (As per the scripture that says, “He became sin for us that we might become the righteousness of Christ” after He died in our place.)

Couple more examples to show that this word imputed doesn't have to mean something is true in reality:

Rom 2:26

Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall G3049 ➔ not his uncircumcision be counted G3049 for circumcision? (Even though not circumcised.)

2Co 5:19

To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing G3049 their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. (Even though everyone in the world has trespassed.)

This is what it means where it says the following in Romans 4 where the faith of Abraham and imputed righteousness through faith is being laid out:

Rom 4:17

(As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

(In other words this is another way of saying that God IMPUTES things which be not as though they were.)

Correct-

Mark 15:28 (TR)

Greek: καὶ ἐπληρώθη ἡ γραφή ἡ λέγουσα· καὶ μετὰ ἀνόμων ἐλογίσθη.

Transliteration: kai eplērōthē hē graphē hē legousa: kai meta anomōn elogisthē.

Parsing:

ἐπληρώθη (eplērōthē) - verb, aorist passive indicative, 3rd person singular, from πληρόω (to fulfill).
ἡ γραφή (hē graphē) - noun, nominative singular, feminine, meaning "the scripture" or "the writing."
ἡ λέγουσα (hē legousa) - participle, present active nominative singular feminine, from λέγω (to say).
καὶ μετὰ (kai meta) - conjunction and preposition, meaning "and with."
ἀνόμων (anomōn) - noun, genitive plural masculine, meaning "lawless ones" or "transgressors."
ἐλογίσθη (elogisthē) - verb, aorist passive indicative, 3rd person singular, from λογίζομαι (to reckon or count).
Translation: "And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, 'And He was numbered with the transgressors.'"

Luke 22:37 (TR)

Greek: ὅτι λέγω ὑμῖν ὅτι τοῦτο τὸ γεγραμμένον δεῖ τελεσθῆναι ἐν ἐμοί, τὸ καὶ μετὰ ἀνόμων ἐλογίσθη· καὶ γὰρ τὰ περὶ ἐμοῦ τέλος ἔχει.

Transliteration: hoti legō hymin hoti touto to gegrammenon dei telesthenai en emoi, to kai meta anomōn elogisthē; kai gar ta peri emou telos echei.

Parsing:

γεγραμμένον (gegrammenon) - verb, perfect passive participle accusative neuter singular, from γράφω (to write).
δεῖ (dei) - verb, present active indicative, 3rd person singular, from δεῖ (it is necessary).
τελεσθῆναι (telesthenai) - verb, aorist passive infinitive, from τελέω (to complete or fulfill).
ἐν ἐμοί (en emoi) - prepositional phrase, meaning "in me."
καὶ μετὰ (kai meta) - conjunction and preposition, meaning "and with."
ἀνόμων (anomōn) - noun, genitive plural masculine, meaning "lawless ones" or "transgressors."
ἐλογίσθη (elogisthē) - verb, aorist passive indicative, 3rd person singular, from λογίζομαι (to reckon or count).
τὰ περὶ ἐμοῦ (ta peri emou) - phrase, accusative neuter plural, meaning "the things concerning me."
τέλος (telos) - noun, nominative singular neuter, meaning "end" or "fulfillment."
ἔχει (echei) - verb, present active indicative, 3rd person singular, from ἔχω (to have or possess).
Translation: "For I say to you that this which is written must still be accomplished in Me: 'And He was numbered with the transgressors.' For the things concerning Me have an end."

Regarding the Greek word ἐλογίσθη (elogisthē), which is Strong's Greek 3049 and is translated as "reckoned," "imputed," or "counted":

This word denotes a reckoning or counting, often in a legal or theological context where something is considered as though it were true. It does not necessarily indicate the actual state of being, but rather the attribution or consideration of something as such.
These passages illustrate how ἐλογίσθη (elogisthē) is used in the context of biblical texts to convey a theological or legal reckoning, attributing qualities or actions to individuals based on divine or legal judgment.

 

[Johann]

Correct-

Mark 15:28 (TR)

Greek: καὶ ἐπληρώθη ἡ γραφή ἡ λέγουσα· καὶ μετὰ ἀνόμων ἐλογίσθη.

Transliteration: kai eplērōthē hē graphē hē legousa: kai meta anomōn elogisthē.

Parsing:

ἐπληρώθη (eplērōthē) - verb, aorist passive indicative, 3rd person singular, from πληρόω (to fulfill).
ἡ γραφή (hē graphē) - noun, nominative singular, feminine, meaning "the scripture" or "the writing."
ἡ λέγουσα (hē legousa) - participle, present active nominative singular feminine, from λέγω (to say).
καὶ μετὰ (kai meta) - conjunction and preposition, meaning "and with."
ἀνόμων (anomōn) - noun, genitive plural masculine, meaning "lawless ones" or "transgressors."
ἐλογίσθη (elogisthē) - verb, aorist passive indicative, 3rd person singular, from λογίζομαι (to reckon or count).
Translation: "And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, 'And He was numbered with the transgressors.'"

Luke 22:37 (TR)

Greek: ὅτι λέγω ὑμῖν ὅτι τοῦτο τὸ γεγραμμένον δεῖ τελεσθῆναι ἐν ἐμοί, τὸ καὶ μετὰ ἀνόμων ἐλογίσθη· καὶ γὰρ τὰ περὶ ἐμοῦ τέλος ἔχει.

Transliteration: hoti legō hymin hoti touto to gegrammenon dei telesthenai en emoi, to kai meta anomōn elogisthē; kai gar ta peri emou telos echei.

Parsing:

γεγραμμένον (gegrammenon) - verb, perfect passive participle accusative neuter singular, from γράφω (to write).
δεῖ (dei) - verb, present active indicative, 3rd person singular, from δεῖ (it is necessary).
τελεσθῆναι (telesthenai) - verb, aorist passive infinitive, from τελέω (to complete or fulfill).
ἐν ἐμοί (en emoi) - prepositional phrase, meaning "in me."
καὶ μετὰ (kai meta) - conjunction and preposition, meaning "and with."
ἀνόμων (anomōn) - noun, genitive plural masculine, meaning "lawless ones" or "transgressors."
ἐλογίσθη (elogisthē) - verb, aorist passive indicative, 3rd person singular, from λογίζομαι (to reckon or count).
τὰ περὶ ἐμοῦ (ta peri emou) - phrase, accusative neuter plural, meaning "the things concerning me."
τέλος (telos) - noun, nominative singular neuter, meaning "end" or "fulfillment."
ἔχει (echei) - verb, present active indicative, 3rd person singular, from ἔχω (to have or possess).
Translation: "For I say to you that this which is written must still be accomplished in Me: 'And He was numbered with the transgressors.' For the things concerning Me have an end."

Regarding the Greek word ἐλογίσθη (elogisthē), which is Strong's Greek 3049 and is translated as "reckoned," "imputed," or "counted":

This word denotes a reckoning or counting, often in a legal or theological context where something is considered as though it were true. It does not necessarily indicate the actual state of being, but rather the attribution or consideration of something as such.
These passages illustrate how ἐλογίσθη (elogisthē) is used in the context of biblical texts to convey a theological or legal reckoning, attributing qualities or actions to individuals based on divine or legal judgment.

Don't fret @Lizbeth-this is rapid fire "ministry"

 

[Lizbeth]

I hope I am exposing myself. I come to the light because I'm speaking the truth. And what is so wrong with Catholic beliefs?...it's the traditions that are suspect, not the old paths. The reformers threw out the baby with the bathwater. But apostolic doctrines don't begin in the 16th century as you think. No, the great delusions came about during the "enlightenment" period...very humanistic...like the reformers themselves, naming and claiming things from the bible that suits their own aspirations. Without the printing press and mass propaganda the reformist ideologies would not have caught on. It's like being a Mormon who believes there was no truth until the 19th century. I see reformists the same way I see Mormons...denying apostolic truth. And to follow a man? Man-made doctrines? Whether its Martin Luther or Joseph Smith? Utter foolishness in my view.

How can people be so gullible is beyond me. I think more thought has to go into it.

You disparage spiritual gifts?...again throwing out the baby with the bathwater. Read the bible. Read Acts. My testimony means nothing to you? Fine. I don't care in the least. But ignoring the plain testimonies found in the bible? Well, we see the pattern of unbelief.

Nope. We are following apostolic doctrine....CLEARLY. And if you think it's a bad thing that "reformist ideologies" of such things as salvation by faith and imputed righteousness caught on, that is a dangerous place to be. In spite of the faults of some of those who led the reformation, overall it was the Lord God Almighty breaking through deep darkness with His marvellous light! Your quarrel is with HIM, if you dare.

 

[Lizbeth]

Don't fret @Lizbeth-this is rapid fire "ministry"

Amen, and thanks brother. God bless all you who are contending for THE FAITH!

 

[Episkopos]

I can't keep up to parse everything that is being said and am only spot reading here and there, but here is something more to put on the table in case it helps.

Below are some scriptural usages of the Greek word that is translated as “imputed” in case it helps @Episkopos with his understanding of that word, or anyone who reads this. (You see Epi, I do look things up, quite often, though not as often now that I’m getting older since I don’t always have the mental stamina to grapple with everything these days.)



Mar 15:28

And the scripture was fulfilled, which saith, And he was numbered G3049 with the transgressors.

Luk 22:37

For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned G3049 among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end.


What is underlined is the same Greek word that is also translated as “imputed” elsewhere. Logizmai – G3049. Was Jesus really a transgressor?

To people He was seen as a transgressor. But you are not making a distinction between what men think and what God thinks. "He was reckoned" is not the same as "And this was reckoned to Him (by God). You think they are the same...as you can claim a bible verse and maybe find some others who will attest to you having God's righteousness based on claiming a misunderstood verse. But that's man-made imputation. God doesn't impute the way men do. .

No, certainly not….but our transgressions were imputed to Him,

No. Isaiah 53 is not well translated. Jesus was crucified FROM our transgressions and iniquity...not FOR these. It was our sins that put Jesus on the cross..OUR SIN. Jesus suffered that for our sake...

This is where a little knowledge of Hebrew can help.


וְהוּא֙ מְחֹלָ֣ל מִפְּשָׁעֵ֔נוּ מְדֻכָּ֖א מֵֽעֲוֹֽנוֹתֵ֑ינוּ מוּסַ֚ר שְׁלוֹמֵ֙נוּ֙ עָלָ֔יו וּבַֽחֲבֻֽרָת֖וֹ נִרְפָּא־לָֽנוּ:


"He was wounded FROM our transgressions, crushed FROM our iniquities: the chastisement of OUR peace (better that one man dies) was on Him, in His stripes we are healed." Is. 53:5


This has as much to do with what we are to undergo to be like Christ as it is about what Jesus underwent. We are wounded (in the outer man) away from our transgressions....we are crushed (in our egos) away FROM our own iniquities. We are healed from our selfish ways by bearing up under the stripes that are meant for Him...suffering for His name sake. We are hated for His sake.




And those who are His follow Him in that same taking on the iniquity of the religious certainty peddlers. We are likewise saved FROM our iniquity by being crucified with Him.

that His righteousness might be imputed to us.

That's impossible. Nobody is as righteous as God is. All our righteousnesses are as filthy rags. No, we need to be covered by His presence which is according to His righteousness.

Man, anything to deny the higher walk...

(As per the scripture that says, “He became sin for us that we might become the righteousness of Christ” after He died in our place.)

To us....He was sinful...as our peace was disturbed. The chastisement of OUR peace was laid upon Him...to kill Him. Jesus was put to death, not by God, but at the hands of evil men.

Couple more examples to show that this word imputed doesn't have to mean something is true in reality:

False. Imputing means to ATTRIBUTE. People can do that in error...just as you are doing. You prove my point. People can FALSELY attribute something to someone...but God can't. So then you attribute God's righteousness to yourself...by a false imputation...the same kind of error that saw Jesus as being seen as sinful among the religious people of that time.

Rom 2:26

Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall G3049 ➔ not his uncircumcision be counted G3049 for circumcision? (Even though not circumcised.)

People all over the world obey Jesus without knowing Him. Then as now. These will be justified by the mercy of God through Christ who redeems the world to Himself....

2Co 5:19

To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing G3049 their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. (Even though everyone in the world has trespassed.)

THE WORLD to Himself...see? Not the church. And not reckoning their sins means that Jesus died for sinful men in spite of the fact that they are sinful. It doesn't mean that God can't see their sinfulness. It means that sinfulness was not part of the equation...in fact, it was factored in.

This is what it means where it says the following in Romans 4 where the faith of Abraham and imputed righteousness through faith is being laid out:

Rom 4:17

(As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

(In other words this is another way of saying that God IMPUTES things which be not as though they were.)

Abraham's righteousness was that of a man...not a god. God did not impute His OWN righteousness to him. Only very unlearned and confused people make that assumption. God can attribute good things and bad things to people...as He sees them.

But I have laid all these things out plainly before. To overcome a previous indoctrination, I may have to repeat them 17, 325 more times before you see it. ;)

 

[Johann]

וְהוּא֙ מְחֹלָ֣ל מִפְּשָׁעֵ֔נוּ מְדֻכָּ֖א מֵֽעֲוֹֽנוֹתֵ֑ינוּ מוּסַ֚ר שְׁלוֹמֵ֙נוּ֙ עָלָ֔יו וּבַֽחֲבֻֽרָת֖וֹ נִרְפָּא־לָֽנוּ:


"He was wounded FROM our transgressions, crushed FROM our iniquities: the chastisement of OUR peace (better that one man dies) , in His stripes we are healed." Is. 53:5

Unfortunately-yet another error on your part-

Here’s the breakdown and translation:

מִפְּשָׁעֵ֔נוּ (mippešāʿēnû):
מִ (mi) - preposition meaning "from" or "because of."
פְּשָׁעֵ֔נוּ (pəšāʿēnû) - noun, plural construct form of "peshah" (פֶּשַׁע), meaning "transgressions" or "rebellions."
So, the phrase מִפְּשָׁעֵ֔נוּ (mippešāʿēnû) is correctly translated as "from our transgressions" or "because of our transgressions" in English. It indicates the cause or reason for the suffering described in the verse.

he Hebrew preposition מִ (mi) is indeed significant in conveying the idea of origin, cause, or source in biblical Hebrew. Here's a more scholarly exploration of its usage and nuances:

Meaning and Usage:

Source or Origin: מִ (mi) primarily denotes the idea of coming from a particular place or originating from something. For example, in Genesis 2:6, מִן־הָאָרֶץ (min-ha'aretz) means "from the earth," indicating the source of the water that irrigated the ground.
Cause or Reason: מִ (mi) can also express the cause or reason for something happening. In Isaiah 53:5, מִפְּשָׁעֵנוּ (mippešāʿēnû) means "because of our transgressions," indicating that the suffering described is a consequence of human sin.
Scholarly Insights:

According to lexicons and biblical dictionaries, such as Brown-Driver-Briggs (BDB) and HALOT (Hebrew and Aramaic Lexicon of the Old Testament), מִ (mi) is analyzed in terms of its grammatical function and semantic range.

BDB notes that מִ (mi) can indicate separation, cause, origin, or source depending on the context in which it appears. It is versatile and contextually determined.

HALOT provides further examples from ancient Hebrew texts, showing how מִ (mi) is used to express a variety of relationships, including spatial, temporal, and causal.

Therefore, Isaiah 53:5 in the context of the Hebrew text from the Masoretic Text (represented in the Lexham Hebrew Bible and Textus Receptus) should indeed be translated as:

"He was wounded because of our transgressions, crushed because of our iniquities."

This translation accurately reflects the causative relationship between the suffering of the servant (understood messianically in Christian interpretation) and the sins of humanity.

Now you are twisting the Isaiah 53 passage-wonder what's next?

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Jesus said "no person comes to the Father, except through me".. John 14:6

So, that is not a "man made doctrine"..

That is the GRACE of God, that is the Cross of Christ, and there is nothing else that God has provided as His GRACE and Mercy, whereby the unbeliever can become "one with God".....as a "Christian", and gain "eternal LIFE".

There is no struggling to do that......there is no working to get there......as the heretic's all teach.

Salvation is "The GIFT of Salvation"........and that is not going to change because some prefer to try to work their way to heaven, in their "vanity" and "Self Righteousness".

And a heretic says..

"behold are you saying we are to do nothing for God".


And Behold says.......>"you are to give you LIFE to God", but you are to never try to Take CREDIT for Salvation, based on "what i must do"..


As that is Legalism, and it DENIES THE Cross.

“behold are you saying we are to do nothing for God.”
I wouldn’t call bearing fruit unto God nothing. When it’s everything. I don’t know what else to say. All I can speak from is experience. I grew up reciting a prayer over and over accepting God into my heart. I boasted that I was one of His when I didn’t even know God. I know this now because like in any relationship where one says there is a relationship…the actions spoke for themselves. God was not even on my radar. He was not I my mind or in my heart. I wanted something easy. I wanted to say the prayer and always went back to same as always. Just like with husband and wives. If two are in “a relationship” yet act as strangers, then calling it a relationship sounds nice, but it’s missing the intimacy of a real relationship. Interest. Caring. That was me after saying the prayer over and over…

 

[Lizbeth]

To people He was seen as a transgressor. But you are not making a distinction between what men think and what God thinks. "He was reckoned" is not the same as "And this was reckoned to Him (by God). You think they are the same...as you can claim a bible verse and maybe find some others who will attest to you having God's righteousness based on claiming a misunderstood verse. But that's man-made imputation. God doesn't impute the way men do. .


No. Isaiah 53 is not well translated. Jesus was crucified FROM our transgressions and iniquity...not FOR these. It was our sins that put Jesus on the cross..OUR SIN. Jesus suffered that for our sake...

This is where a little knowledge of Hebrew can help.


וְהוּא֙ מְחֹלָ֣ל מִפְּשָׁעֵ֔נוּ מְדֻכָּ֖א מֵֽעֲוֹֽנוֹתֵ֑ינוּ מוּסַ֚ר שְׁלוֹמֵ֙נוּ֙ עָלָ֔יו וּבַֽחֲבֻֽרָת֖וֹ נִרְפָּא־לָֽנוּ:


"He was wounded FROM our transgressions, crushed FROM our iniquities: the chastisement of OUR peace (better that one man dies) was on Him, in His stripes we are healed." Is. 53:5


This has as much to do with what we are to undergo to be like Christ as it is about what Jesus underwent. We are wounded (in the outer man) away from our transgressions....we are crushed (in our egos) away FROM our own iniquities. We are healed from our selfish ways by bearing up under the stripes that are meant for Him...suffering for His name sake. We are hated for His sake.




And those who are His follow Him in that same taking on the iniquity of the religious certainty peddlers. We are likewise saved FROM our iniquity by being crucified with Him.




That's impossible. Nobody is as righteous as God is. All our righteousnesses are as filthy rags. No, we need to be covered by His presence which is according to His righteousness.

Man, anything to deny the higher walk...

To us....He was sinful...as our peace was disturbed. The chastisement of OUR peace was laid upon Him...to kill Him. Jesus was put to death, not by God, but at the hands of evil men.


False. Imputing means to ATTRIBUTE. People can do that in error...just as you are doing. You prove my point. People can FALSELY attribute something to someone...but God can't. So then you attribute God's righteousness to yourself...by a false imputation...the same kind of error that saw Jesus as being seen as sinful among the religious people of that time.


People all over the world obey Jesus without knowing Him. Then as now. These will be justified by the mercy of God through Christ who redeems the world to Himself....



THE WORLD to Himself...see? Not the church. And not reckoning their sins means that Jesus died for sinful men in spite of the fact that they are sinful. It doesn't mean that God can't see their sinfulness. It means that sinfulness was not part of the equation...in fact, it was factored in.

Abraham's righteousness was that of a man...not a god. God did not impute His OWN righteousness to him. Only very unlearned and confused people make that assumption. God can attribute good things and bad things to people...as He sees them.

But I have laid all these things out plainly before. To overcome a previous indoctrination, I may have to repeat them 17, 325 more times before you see it. ;)

Still no ears to hear I see. God hides things from the wise and learned but reveals them to little children.

 

[Johann]

Still no ears to hear I see. God hides things from the wise and learned but reveals them to little children.

וְהוּא֙ מְחֹלָ֣ל מִפְּשָׁעֵ֔נוּ מְדֻכָּ֖א מֵֽעֲוֹֽנוֹתֵ֑ינוּ מוּסַ֚ר שְׁלוֹמֵ֙נוּ֙ עָלָ֔יו וּבַֽחֲבֻֽרָת֖וֹ נִרְפָּא־לָֽנוּ:


"He was wounded FROM our transgressions, crushed FROM our iniquities: the chastisement of OUR peace (better that one man dies) was on Him, in His stripes we are healed." Is. 53:5

This is error-the man have no knowledge of Hebrew-not being facetious.

 

[Episkopos]

Unfortunately-yet another error on your part-

Here’s the breakdown and translation:

מִפְּשָׁעֵ֔נוּ (mippešāʿēnû):
מִ (mi) - preposition meaning "from" or "because of."
פְּשָׁעֵ֔נוּ (pəšāʿēnû) - noun, plural construct form of "peshah" (פֶּשַׁע), meaning "transgressions" or "rebellions."
So, the phrase מִפְּשָׁעֵ֔נוּ (mippešāʿēnû) is correctly translated as "from our transgressions" or "because of our transgressions" in English. It indicates the cause or reason for the suffering described in the verse.

he Hebrew preposition מִ (mi) is indeed significant in conveying the idea of origin, cause, or source in biblical Hebrew. Here's a more scholarly exploration of its usage and nuances:

Meaning and Usage:

Source or Origin: מִ (mi) primarily denotes the idea of coming from a particular place or originating from something. For example, in Genesis 2:6, מִן־הָאָרֶץ (min-ha'aretz) means "from the earth," indicating the source of the water that irrigated the ground.
Cause or Reason: מִ (mi) can also express the cause or reason for something happening. In Isaiah 53:5, מִפְּשָׁעֵנוּ (mippešāʿēnû) means "because of our transgressions," indicating that the suffering described is a consequence of human sin.
Scholarly Insights:

According to lexicons and biblical dictionaries, such as Brown-Driver-Briggs (BDB) and HALOT (Hebrew and Aramaic Lexicon of the Old Testament), מִ (mi) is analyzed in terms of its grammatical function and semantic range.

BDB notes that מִ (mi) can indicate separation, cause, origin, or source depending on the context in which it appears. It is versatile and contextually determined.

HALOT provides further examples from ancient Hebrew texts, showing how מִ (mi) is used to express a variety of relationships, including spatial, temporal, and causal.

Therefore, Isaiah 53:5 in the context of the Hebrew text from the Masoretic Text (represented in the Lexham Hebrew Bible and Textus Receptus) should indeed be translated as:

"He was wounded because of our transgressions, crushed because of our iniquities."

This translation accurately reflects the causative relationship between the suffering of the servant (understood messianically in Christian interpretation) and the sins of humanity.

Now you are twisting the Isaiah 53 passage-wonder what's next?

I don't know what's in the Kool-aid you are drinking..but you are proving my point. Jesus died because of our sins...not for our sins.

I don't think there is much thinking going into your process....a lot of citations...no reasoning power to speak of. In your rush to "correct" me you have undermined your own beliefs.

People think Jesus died FOR their sins. To forgive them. So now, in that scheme, there is no more penalty for THEIR sins based on an eternal cosmic forgiveness plan received by a simple accepting as Jesus as one's personal Saviour.

And you are acknowledging that I am speaking rightly while accusing me of being in error. How can you be more confused?

Learn Hebrew before you show your even more ignorance...

 

[Johann]

I don't know what's in the Kool-aid you are drinking..but you are proving my point. Jesus died because of our sins...not for our sins.

And I don't know what rum you are drinking but this is backfiring on you-

To demonstrate from Scripture that Jesus died "for our sins," I will provide verses from both the Old Testament (Hebrew) and the New Testament (Greek) that explicitly convey this concept:

Old Testament (Hebrew Scriptures):
Isaiah 53:5-6 (Hebrew):
Hebrew text: וְהוּא מְחֹלָל מִפְּשָׁעֵנוּ מְדֻכָּא מֵעֲוֹנֹתֵינוּ מוּסַר שְׁלוֹמֵנוּ עָלָיו וּבַחֲבֻרָתוֹ נִרְפָּא לָנוּ
Transliteration: vəhū məḥōlāl mippəšāʿēnû mədukkāʾ mēʿăwōnōṯēnû mūsar šəlōmēnû ʿālāw ūvaḥăburāṯō nirpāʾ lānū.
Translation: "But he was pierced for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his wounds we are healed."
New Testament (Greek Scriptures):
1 Corinthians 15:3 (Greek):

Greek text: ὅτι Χριστὸς ἀπέθανεν ὑπὲρ τῶν ἁμαρτιῶν ἡμῶν κατὰ τὰς γραφὰς
Transliteration: hoti Christos apethanen huper tōn hamartiōn hēmōn kata tas graphas.
Translation: "that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures."
Romans 5:8 (Greek):

Greek text: συνίστησιν δὲ τὴν ἑαυτοῦ ἀγάπην εἰς ἡμᾶς ὁ θεὸς ὅτι ἔτι ἁμαρτωλῶν ὄντων ἡμῶν Χριστὸς ὑπὲρ ἡμῶν ἀπέθανεν
Transliteration: synistēsin de tēn heautou agapēn eis hēmas ho theos hoti eti hamartōlōn ontōn hēmōn Christos huper hēmōn apethanen.
Translation: "But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us."
Analysis and Explanation:
In Isaiah 53:5-6, the Hebrew text uses the preposition מִ (mi) to indicate that Jesus was pierced and crushed for our transgressions and iniquities, emphasizing the substitutionary nature of his suffering.

In the New Testament passages (1 Corinthians 15:3 and Romans 5:8), the Greek preposition ὑπὲρ (huper) is used, which denotes "for the sake of," "on behalf of," or "in the place of." This preposition indicates that Jesus died in our place to bear the penalty of our sins.

In Isa_53:5, וְהוּא, as contrasted with וַאֲנַחְנוּ, continues the true state of the case as contrasted with their false judgment. “Whereas He was pierced for our sins, bruised for our iniquities: the punishment was laid upon Him for our peace; and through His stripes we were healed.” The question is, whether Isa_53:5 describes what He was during His life, or what He was in His death. The words decide in favour of the latter. For although châlâl is applied to a person mortally wounded but not yet dead (Jer_51:52; Psa_69:27), and châlal to a heart wounded to death (Psa_109:22); the pure passives used here, which denote a calamity inflicted by violence from without, more especially mechōlâl, which is not the participle polal of chı̄l (made to twist one's self with pain), but the participle poal of châl (pierced, transfossus, the passive of mechōlēl, Isa_51:9), and the substantive clauses, which express a fact that has become complete in all its circumstances, can hardly be understood in any other way than as denoting, that “the servant of God” floated before the mind of the speaker in all the sufferings of death, just as was the case with Zechariah in Zec_12:10. There were no stronger expressions to be found in the language, to denote a violent and painful death. As min, with the passive, does not answer to the Greek ὑπό, but to ἀπό, the meaning is not that it was our sins and iniquities that had pierced Him through like swords, and crushed Him like heavy burdens, but that He was pierced and crushed on account of and for our sins and iniquities. It was not His own sins and iniquities, but ours, which He had taken upon Himself, that He might make atonement for them in our stead, that were the cause of His having to suffer so cruel and painful a death.
K&D.

Isa 53:5 But he was pierced [Yeshayah 51:9; Zecharyah 12:10 Sukkah 52a, Tehillim 22:17 Targum Hashivim] for our transgressions, he was bruised mei'avonoteinu (for our iniquities); the musar (chastisement) (that brought us shalom [Yeshayah 54:10] was upon him [Moshiach]; and at the cost of his (Moshiach's) chaburah (stripes, lacerations) we are healed.

You might want to try again.

 

[Lizbeth]

And I don't know what rum you are drinking but this is backfiring on you-

To demonstrate from Scripture that Jesus died "for our sins," I will provide verses from both the Old Testament (Hebrew) and the New Testament (Greek) that explicitly convey this concept:

Old Testament (Hebrew Scriptures):
Isaiah 53:5-6 (Hebrew):
Hebrew text: וְהוּא מְחֹלָל מִפְּשָׁעֵנוּ מְדֻכָּא מֵעֲוֹנֹתֵינוּ מוּסַר שְׁלוֹמֵנוּ עָלָיו וּבַחֲבֻרָתוֹ נִרְפָּא לָנוּ
Transliteration: vəhū məḥōlāl mippəšāʿēnû mədukkāʾ mēʿăwōnōṯēnû mūsar šəlōmēnû ʿālāw ūvaḥăburāṯō nirpāʾ lānū.
Translation: "But he was pierced for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his wounds we are healed."
New Testament (Greek Scriptures):
1 Corinthians 15:3 (Greek):

Greek text: ὅτι Χριστὸς ἀπέθανεν ὑπὲρ τῶν ἁμαρτιῶν ἡμῶν κατὰ τὰς γραφὰς
Transliteration: hoti Christos apethanen huper tōn hamartiōn hēmōn kata tas graphas.
Translation: "that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures."
Romans 5:8 (Greek):

Greek text: συνίστησιν δὲ τὴν ἑαυτοῦ ἀγάπην εἰς ἡμᾶς ὁ θεὸς ὅτι ἔτι ἁμαρτωλῶν ὄντων ἡμῶν Χριστὸς ὑπὲρ ἡμῶν ἀπέθανεν
Transliteration: synistēsin de tēn heautou agapēn eis hēmas ho theos hoti eti hamartōlōn ontōn hēmōn Christos huper hēmōn apethanen.
Translation: "But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us."
Analysis and Explanation:
In Isaiah 53:5-6, the Hebrew text uses the preposition מִ (mi) to indicate that Jesus was pierced and crushed for our transgressions and iniquities, emphasizing the substitutionary nature of his suffering.

In the New Testament passages (1 Corinthians 15:3 and Romans 5:8), the Greek preposition ὑπὲρ (huper) is used, which denotes "for the sake of," "on behalf of," or "in the place of." This preposition indicates that Jesus died in our place to bear the penalty of our sins.

In Isa_53:5, וְהוּא, as contrasted with וַאֲנַחְנוּ, continues the true state of the case as contrasted with their false judgment. “Whereas He was pierced for our sins, bruised for our iniquities: the punishment was laid upon Him for our peace; and through His stripes we were healed.” The question is, whether Isa_53:5 describes what He was during His life, or what He was in His death. The words decide in favour of the latter. For although châlâl is applied to a person mortally wounded but not yet dead (Jer_51:52; Psa_69:27), and châlal to a heart wounded to death (Psa_109:22); the pure passives used here, which denote a calamity inflicted by violence from without, more especially mechōlâl, which is not the participle polal of chı̄l (made to twist one's self with pain), but the participle poal of châl (pierced, transfossus, the passive of mechōlēl, Isa_51:9), and the substantive clauses, which express a fact that has become complete in all its circumstances, can hardly be understood in any other way than as denoting, that “the servant of God” floated before the mind of the speaker in all the sufferings of death, just as was the case with Zechariah in Zec_12:10. There were no stronger expressions to be found in the language, to denote a violent and painful death. As min, with the passive, does not answer to the Greek ὑπό, but to ἀπό, the meaning is not that it was our sins and iniquities that had pierced Him through like swords, and crushed Him like heavy burdens, but that He was pierced and crushed on account of and for our sins and iniquities. It was not His own sins and iniquities, but ours, which He had taken upon Himself, that He might make atonement for them in our stead, that were the cause of His having to suffer so cruel and painful a death.
K&D.

You might want to try again.

Amen. He died for our sins, to atone for them in our stead. Not that hard of a concept but Epi likes to confuse and convolute what is simple. God is not the author of confusion, but that comes from elsewhere.