Amil can only be proved to be true if Amils accept all of the following terms and convincingly satisfy these terms.

[Rich R]

You are full of Dispensatanist nonsense. You are a deceiver.

So you spew such vitriol at me and I'm supposed to read the rest of your post? I don't think so!

 

[covenantee]

That's my point. But it seems you may be saying there are two new covenants, one made to Israel in Jeremiah and some other new covenant Jesus was making at the last supper that now was being made with the church.

I've repeatedly emphasized with Scripture that they are one and the same New Covenant, so I have no idea why you refuse to recognize it.

 

[WPM]

Col 1:26,

[Even] the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:​

​

"Now" was not when Jesus spoke at the last supper. "Now" came several years later.

Eph 3:3,

How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,​

​

God had to tell Paul about the mystery by revelation. Why? Because nobody knew about it before it was revealed to Paul. The twelve apostles at the last supper didn't know about it. Otherwise God would not have had to reveal it to Paul. Peter could have told him about it. But Peter (or any of the other 11) didn't know about it unitl Paul told them.

Colossians 1:25-27: Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.”

The “mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations” is “the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.” This correlates with perfectly with Ephesians 3:1-9. During this New Testament era Christ the Messiah inhabits God’s one-and-only transnational body of Jews and Gentiles. He has no other people.

 

[WPM]

So you spew such vitriol at me and I'm supposed to read the rest of your post? I don't think so!

I deleted my opening statement. I apologize for the offence. It is so difficult listening to such blatant error. But i have no desire to deliberately offend.

 

[Earburner]

Well put! Brilliant! Premils take a roasting on every topic. You would think they would get it if they were open to truth. But what they have been taught is more important.

Amen!
1 Cor. 2
[5] That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power [authority] of God.

 

[Earburner]

Colossians 1:25-27: Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.”

The “mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations” is “the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.” This correlates with perfectly with Ephesians 3:1-9. During this New Testament era Christ the Messiah inhabits God’s one-and-only transnational body of Jews and Gentiles. He has no other people.

Transnational? That would be so, if all of each are indeed "born again" of God's Holy Spirit. For all who are not born again, being both Jew and Gentile, Rom. 8:9 shall apply:
[9] But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

 

[Rich R]

I deleted my opening statement. I apologize for the offence. It is so difficult listening to such blatant error. But i have no desire to deliberately offend.

No problem. I understand. Thanks.

 

[Keraz]

This is #330, which remains unaddressed:

This got buried, conveniently, as the truth of what Jesus said disproves the AMill theory.
That the AMill belief defies commonsense and logic, doesn't concern its exponents.

But the cunning avoidance of scriptures that show how wrong that theory is; like Revelation 20's -plainly stated truths, cannot be allowed to be unaddressed and glossed over.

Luke 13:32 Listen, today and tomorrow, I shall be driving out demons and working cures and on the third day, I shall attain My goal.
This must be a prophecy, as in the next verse Jesus says;
Luke 13:33 However, I must go on My way this day, tomorrow and the next, then meet My death in Jerusalem.
His immediate future, exactly fulfilled.

A matching prophecy is in Hosea 6:2 After two days He will revive us, on the third, He will restore us, that we may live in His presence.
So, there are two “days” that the people of the world must wait until Jesus Returns to His Kingdom and restores us. Then He will reign on earth for the final 'day'. Each 'day' here must mean a thousand years.

We all desire the truth, we all have to overcome ideas, theories and doctrines which may or may not be correct. Get it right, or pay the price of ignorance as the end times unfold.

Now at #388, I try again to present to all who have ears to hear and eyes to see; that the AMilll doctrine is false.
Wrong beliefs, of course do not mean anyone loses their Salvation, but the worst aspect of it is how some get very unpleasant and critical of having their beliefs challenged.
There may be some kind of admonition from the Lord against those who have acted in that way. 1 Corinthians 3:11-15

 

[Rich R]

This is #330, which remains unaddressed:

This got buried, conveniently, as the truth of what Jesus said disproves the AMill theory.
That the AMill belief defies commonsense and logic, doesn't concern its exponents.

But the cunning avoidance of scriptures that show how wrong that theory is; like Revelation 20's -plainly stated truths, cannot be allowed to be unaddressed and glossed over.

Luke 13:32 Listen, today and tomorrow, I shall be driving out demons and working cures and on the third day, I shall attain My goal.
This must be a prophecy, as in the next verse Jesus says;
Luke 13:33 However, I must go on My way this day, tomorrow and the next, then meet My death in Jerusalem.
His immediate future, exactly fulfilled.

A matching prophecy is in Hosea 6:2 After two days He will revive us, on the third, He will restore us, that we may live in His presence.
So, there are two “days” that the people of the world must wait until Jesus Returns to His Kingdom and restores us. Then He will reign on earth for the final 'day'. Each 'day' here must mean a thousand years.

We all desire the truth, we all have to overcome ideas, theories and doctrines which may or may not be correct. Get it right, or pay the price of ignorance as the end times unfold.

Now at #388, I try again to present to all who have ears to hear and eyes to see; that the AMilll doctrine is false.
Wrong beliefs, of course do not mean anyone loses their Salvation, but the worst aspect of it is how some get very unpleasant and critical of having their beliefs challenged.
There may be some kind of admonition from the Lord against those who have acted in that way. 1 Corinthians 3:11-15

Very well put. I'll think about what you said about Luke 13 and Hosea 6. Off the top of my head it sounds good.

I also did a quick glance at your website. I read the articles on God's Plan for Mankind. Good stuff brother!

 

[WPM]

This is #330, which remains unaddressed:

This got buried, conveniently, as the truth of what Jesus said disproves the AMill theory.
That the AMill belief defies commonsense and logic, doesn't concern its exponents.

But the cunning avoidance of scriptures that show how wrong that theory is; like Revelation 20's -plainly stated truths, cannot be allowed to be unaddressed and glossed over.

Luke 13:32 Listen, today and tomorrow, I shall be driving out demons and working cures and on the third day, I shall attain My goal.
This must be a prophecy, as in the next verse Jesus says;
Luke 13:33 However, I must go on My way this day, tomorrow and the next, then meet My death in Jerusalem.
His immediate future, exactly fulfilled.

A matching prophecy is in Hosea 6:2 After two days He will revive us, on the third, He will restore us, that we may live in His presence.
So, there are two “days” that the people of the world must wait until Jesus Returns to His Kingdom and restores us. Then He will reign on earth for the final 'day'. Each 'day' here must mean a thousand years.

We all desire the truth, we all have to overcome ideas, theories and doctrines which may or may not be correct. Get it right, or pay the price of ignorance as the end times unfold.

Now at #388, I try again to present to all who have ears to hear and eyes to see; that the AMilll doctrine is false.
Wrong beliefs, of course do not mean anyone loses their Salvation, but the worst aspect of it is how some get very unpleasant and critical of having their beliefs challenged.
There may be some kind of admonition from the Lord against those who have acted in that way. 1 Corinthians 3:11-15

You can keep avoiding, but I will keep repeating. Hosea 6:1-3: “Come, and let us return unto the LORD: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up. After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight. Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as the rain, as the latter and former rain unto the earth.”

There is no reason to interpret these 3 days as anything other than 3 literal days. This again shows that it is Premils that are constantly spiritualizing clear literal Scripture away in order to sustain Premil. Anyway, Jesus literally fulfilled Hosea 6:2. It has already happened. Jesus said he would fulfil this, and He did. Matt 12:40 reads: "For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth."

There is no millennium mention or inferred in this passage. You have to force it into the text. It doesn't in any way say on the 3,000th day but the 3rd day, this is symbolism/spiritualization gone crazy. Such extremities are required to make Premil fit. The reality is it is referring to Christ's glorious resurrection.

Not so. He is describing the resurrection of Christ. There is no mention of thousands. You force that into the text to support your beliefs. What is more. We are already in the 3rd thousand now, demolishing your future millennium theory.

Jesus said in Luke 24:46-49: “Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. And ye are witnesses of these things. And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.”

1 Cor 15:3-4: "For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures."

Where? It is not mentioned anywhere else in Holy Writ, apart from the highly symbolic book of Revelation, and even then, only in the 3rd chapter before the end of the sacred text. I wish Premils quoted the full text of the Scripture that they mention to support their position. The text you mentioned make no mention of a future thousand years. No text seems safe with Premil eisegesis. Where is there any mention of an alleged future millennium in Hosea 6:2 or Luke 13:32?

 

[Keraz]

You can keep avoiding, but I will keep repeating. Hosea 6:1-3

It is you who is the avoider, the dismisser of truth with speculative guesses and the recidivist promoter of a theory which directly contradicts plain scripture.

The text you mentioned make no mention of a future thousand years. No text seems safe with Premil eisegesis. Where is there any mention of an alleged future millennium in Hosea 6:2 or Luke 13:32?

But for those without the AMill agenda, it can be seen that God did mean those days Prophesied, do represent a thousand years. As the formula given to us in Psalms 90:4 and 2 Peter 3:8, informs us.

The third 'day' in Hosea 6, remains unfulfilled, We are not yet raised up, nor do we live in His sight.

Luke 13:32, is prophetic for the almost completed 2000 year Church age, in which Jesus has driven out demons and healed people; through people who call on His Name. On the third 'day, another thousand years, Jesus will attain His goal, of reigning as King over the world.

AMill believers may reject these reasoned interpretations, but they do so only by refusing to really consider how they do fit where we are at today and what is the future fulfilment of Gods plans.

 

[ewq1938]

Jesus said his kingdom is not a physical earthly kingdom

He did not say that. He spoke of it as being spiritual and inside believers but never did he deny a physical kingdom. It is found in Rev 20 and it is Earthly and physical just as his return shall be.

 

[Gottservant]

Can God not save souls before, during and after the Tribulation?

 

[WPM]

It is you who is the avoider, the dismisser of truth with speculative guesses and the recidivist promoter of a theory which directly contradicts plain scripture.

But for those without the AMill agenda, it can be seen that God did mean those days Prophesied, do represent a thousand years. As the formula given to us in Psalms 90:4 and 2 Peter 3:8, informs us.

The third 'day' in Hosea 6, remains unfulfilled, We are not yet raised up, nor do we live in His sight.

Luke 13:32, is prophetic for the almost completed 2000 year Church age, in which Jesus has driven out demons and healed people; through people who call on His Name. On the third 'day, another thousand years, Jesus will attain His goal, of reigning as King over the world.

AMill believers may reject these reasoned interpretations, but they do so only by refusing to really consider how they do fit where we are at today and what is the future fulfilment of Gods plans.

With your teaching: there is nothing literal in Scripture. Everything is spiritualized away. Nothing is the way it seems.

A clear plain straightforward reading of Scripture forbids your reasoning.

1 day being as a thousand years was a simile contrasting eternity with time. It is a comparing things from God's perspective compared to man's.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Romans 9 and Romans 11 have different contexts. And Romans 11 has different contexts within itself.

Rom 11:7,

What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded​

​

Here we see two different people:

1. the election, the remnant, who have obtained salvation (by faith as you say)
2. The rest who were blinded

The previous verses in the context have shown what will happen to the elect i.e. the remnant. They're saved. From 11:7 God tells what will happen to the rest, the ones who were blinded. That continues through the rest of chapter 11, including verse 26.

Rom 11:26,

And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:​

So now we see both the remnant and the rest of Israel saved. In other words, "all Israel shall be saved"

I completely disagree that Romans 9 and Romans 11 have different contexts. I believe Romans 9-11 is all one narrative. Throughout Romans 9-11 Paul is making the case that being saved and being a child of God has nothing to do with one's nationality, but rather has to do with whether or not someone has faith, regardless of whether they are Jew or Gentile. And he shows throughout the Jew and Gentile believers were brought together as one. This can be clearly seen in all of these passages:

Romans 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Romans 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? 25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. 26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

Romans 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; 18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. 19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in. 20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. 22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. 23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

Romans 11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

What is the difference in the context between passages in Romans 9 like Romans 9:6-8 and Romans 9:23-26 and passages in Romans 11 like Romans 11:17-24 and Romans 11:30-32? None. The context is the same. In each Paul is saying that one's nationality is not what matters, but rather having faith is what matters. And in each he talks about the Gentiles being the children of God together with faithful Israelites.

Paul talks about 2 different Israels in Romans 9:6-8 and you can't ignore this when interpreting Romans 11:26.

Romans 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

In verses 7 and 8 here, Paul explains what he meant in verse 6. Verse 8 in particular makes it clear what he was saying in verse 6. By saying "they are not all Israel, which are of Israel" Paul was saying "they which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God". So, one Israel consists only of the children of God and the other Israel consists only of the children of the flesh. So, what Paul was saying in verse 6 then is they are not all Israel that is made up of the children of God (spiritual Israel), which are of Israel that is made up of the children of the flesh. To be part of the Israel that is made up of the children of God requires one to be a child of the promise since "the children of the promise are counted for the seed".

So, who are the children of the promise who are counted as the children of God and counted as being part of the Israel of which not all of national Israel (the children of the flesh) are part? That is the key to understanding which Israel it is of which all are saved.

Galatians 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

There it is. The children of the promise are the children of God, which is not based on being children of the flesh, and they are those who have faith in Christ and belong to Him, whether Jew or Gentile. They are the ones who are part of the Israel of which all are saved. The spiritual Israel of God (Gal 6:15-16).

 

[Keraz]

With your teaching: there is nothing literal in Scripture. Everything is spiritualized away. Nothing is the way it seems.

So says WPM, who spiritualizes Revelation 20. I believe a thousand years means 1000 actual years.

A clear plain straightforward reading of Scripture forbids your reasoning.

That is what destroys the AMill theory. It is absolutely clear and plain scripturally and physically, that we are not in the Millennium now.

1 day being as a thousand years was a simile contrasting eternity with time. It is a comparing things from God's perspective compared to man's.

This is a nonsensical statement. We all know that time is different with Eternal God, but He has given us a formula stating that one day in heaven equals a thousand years of earth time. In our Bibles twice.
You deny plain scriptural truths to your discredit.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

So says WPM, who spiritualizes Revelation 20. I believe a thousand years means 1000 actual years.

Is this referring to 1000 actual generations?

Deuteronomy 7:9 Know therefore that the Lord your God is God; he is the faithful God, keeping his covenant of love to a thousand generations of those who love him and keep his commandments.

Is this referring to 1000 actual hills?

Psalm 50:10 for every animal of the forest is mine, and the cattle on a thousand hills.

That is what destroys the AMill theory. It is absolutely clear and plain scripturally and physically, that we are not in the Millennium now.

It's absolutely clear and plain scripturally that Jesus reigns now.

Matthew 28:18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

Ephesians 1:19 and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is the same as the mighty strength 20 he exerted when he raised Christ from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, 21 far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every name that is invoked, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. 22 And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church,

This is a nonsensical statement. We all know that time is different with Eternal God, but He has given us a formula stating that one day in heaven equals a thousand years of earth time. In our Bibles twice.
You deny plain scriptural truths to your discredit.

No, yours is a nonsensical statement. Time is not just different for God, it doesn't exist for God. He exists outside of time. He created time. Time has no effect on Him whatsoever. So, a day, seven days, a thousand years, five thousand years or any amount of time makes no difference to Him. That is what 2 Peter 3:8 means. YOU are the one who denies plain scriptural truths.

 

[Rich R]

1 day being as a thousand years was a simile contrasting eternity with time. It is a comparing things from God's perspective compared to man's.

Context. If that is blank check to say any length of time is not really what it says, then who's to stop me from saying Jesus will be in the grave, not for three literal days, but for 3,000 years? Since 2,000 years have gone by since Jesus died, we have another 1,000 years to go before he rises. That is the millennium talked about in Revelation.

 

[Keraz]

There it is. The children of the promise are the children of God, which is not based on being children of the flesh, and they are those who have faith in Christ and belong to Him, whether Jew or Gentile. They are the ones who are part of the Israel of which all are saved. The spiritual Israel of God (Gal 6:15-16).

But, but, but.....That messes up the widely held idea that God is going to rapture His Church to heaven as soon as any tribulation occurs.
Millions fondly imagine that they are good enough to be instantly transformed and kept safe in heaven during the time of world satanic control. Then they expect to ride a white horse to accompany Jesus at His glorious Return.

The Jews, of course; must remain and the Great Tribulation will beat the acceptance of Jesus as their Messiah, into them.

These sci-fi and way out fictional ideas are not Biblical and will never happen.
Hebrews 12:7-8, is very clear, we must endure trials and testing, or we are not Gods children.

 

[Rich R]

Context. If that is blank check to say any length of time is not really what it says, then who's to stop me from saying Jesus will be in the grave, not for three literal days, but for 3,000 years? Since 2,000 years have gone by since Jesus died, we have another 1,000 years to go before he rises. That is the millennium talked about in Revelation. Or maybe it meant 3 hours? I don't know. How could I once I abandon the plain meaning of simple words?