What affect is there on The Fall and The Atonement, if Adam was not the first human?

[Lambano]

So, yes, you could pray for someone with cancer, but will he be healed?
You might just be told that you don't have enough faith...

Yeah, bummer about that, huh?

 

[GodsGrace]

Yeah, bummer about that, huh?

Not only is it a bummer Lambano...
It's a terrible thing to accuse someone of either not being Christian
or not being Christian ENOUGH --- not having enough faith.
Seems some denominations believe God is Santa Clause - sitting up in heaven just waiting for our wishes
so He could make them come true.
This would cancel out the term MIRACLE ....
maybe they would be renamed Granting Wishes.

I don't claim to understand why Jesus said what He did or how He meant it.
But I do know that the Word of Faith movement has lead to many leaving the faith
or believing they don't have enough faith.

We should be helping each other - not tearing each other down.
Haven't found anyone like that on this forum, but there probably are some.

 

[St. SteVen]

Huh?
Santa always ate the cookies we left out for him!!
Think of all the cookies he eats every Christmas.
No wonder he's so fat.

The color red is slimming...
that's why Santa wears it. - LOL

[

 

[RedFan]

A basic knowledge of the bible tells one that Deuteronomy is a repetition of the law, a 2nd reading. So if there are differences it is that the Deuteronomy rendering that has been changed.

The writer of Deuteronomy changed what the writer of Exodus said? Wow! And I thought you believed that there was only one author of both -- and that He cannot change!

If the earlier account is always to be preferred over the later account, how do you explain Mark 2:26, which quotes Jesus as saying that David entered the house of God and ate the altar bread “when Abiathar was high priest.” 1 Samuel 21:1-6 is explicit that Ahimelech, not his son Abiathar, was high priest at the time. Did the revisionist (Jesus in this case) correct an earlier error by the original account, or did he make one himself?

 

[Lambano]

I don't claim to understand why Jesus said what He did or how He meant it.

Me neither.

 

[St. SteVen]

GodsGrace said:
I don't claim to understand why Jesus said what He did or how He meant it.

Me neither.

Get with the program, guys. - LOL

Matthew 13:13-15 NIV
This is why I speak to them in parables:
“Though seeing, they do not see;
though hearing, they do not hear or understand.
14 In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah:
“‘You will be ever hearing but never understanding;
you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.
15 For this people’s heart has become calloused;
they hardly hear with their ears,
and they have closed their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts
and turn, and I would heal them.’


[

 

[Windmill Charge]

We understand everyone else's holy texts as myth, just not our own.

We're not discussing comparative religion, but Christianity.
As I posted earlier, if there was no literal Adam, then there was no fall, no promise of a saviour and consequently no Jesus.

The writer of Deuteronomy changed what the writer of Exodus said? Wow! And I thought you believed that there was only one author of both -- and that He cannot change!

If the earlier account is always to be preferred over the later account, how do you explain Mark 2:26, which quotes Jesus as saying that David entered the house of God and ate the altar bread “when Abiathar was high priest.” 1 Samuel 21:1-6 is explicit that Ahimelech, not his son Abiathar, was high priest at the time. Did the revisionist (Jesus in this case) correct an earlier error by the original account, or did he make one himself?

If Jesus had made a mistake it would have been pounced on bathe scribes etc .instead ing.

 

[Windmill Charge]

Hi Windmill,
you're one of those Christians I mentioned in a post at the beginning of this thread.

If it is PROVEN that the Genesis account of creation was made up by men...
will that destroy your faith in God?

Does the existence of God require that the bible be absolutely correct 100% in every way, each and every word,
or the whole idea just falls apart?

Is God separate from the bible?
Did He write the bible or did He inspire it?
Is there a difference?

Your faith in God should not depend on words written 4 thousand years ago - or should it?

My faith is based on the resurrection of Jesus, as Paul wrote in 1 cor15 if Christ is not risen we are guilty of misrepresenting God ( my paraphrase)

No resurrection No Christianity.

 

[Windmill Charge]

Do you believe that OT law has spiritual value? Whether historically true, or not?

[

The O T has value both as a accurate historical document and for the spiritual lessons we can learn from that history.

If not true then it has no spiritual value.

 

[RedFan]

We're not discussing comparative religion, but Christianity.
As I posted earlier, if there was no literal Adam, then there was no fall, no promise of a saviour and consequently no Jesus.


If Jesus had made a mistake it would have been pounced on bathe scribes etc .instead ing.

And maybe they did correct him. Or maybe they were too stunned by the point being made to correct him. Or maybe the mistake was Mark's. Either way, Mark's quotation of Jesus is at odds with Samuel. Someone made a mistake here, whether originally or in the retelling. I'm sorry if such mistakes scandalize you. They don't for me. The point being made is what matters.

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
We understand everyone else's holy texts as myth, just not our own.

We're not discussing comparative religion, but Christianity.
As I posted earlier, if there was no literal Adam, then there was no fall, no promise of a saviour and consequently no Jesus.

I don't think a mythological Adam* means "no promise of a saviour and consequently no Jesus."

If there was no literal Adam, then the word Adam is representative of "man", that is, huMANkind.

* Genesis 2:7 The Hebrew for man (adam) sounds like
and may be related to the Hebrew for ground (adamah);
it is also the name Adam (see verse 20).

[

 

[St. SteVen]

The O T has value both as a accurate historical document and for the spiritual lessons we can learn from that history.

If not true then it has no spiritual value.

Did Jesus' parables have spiritual value?
Were they "true"?

[

 

[Lambano]

GodsGrace said:
I don't claim to understand why Jesus said what He did or how He meant it.

Get with the program, guys. - LOL

Matthew 13:13-15 NIV
This is why I speak to them in parables:
“Though seeing, they do not see;
though hearing, they do not hear or understand.
14 In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah:
“‘You will be ever hearing but never understanding;
you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.
15 For this people’s heart has become calloused;
they hardly hear with their ears,
and they have closed their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts
and turn, and I would heal them.’[

(Note that the graphic has a nice rainbow, just to piss off "certain users".)

 

[GodsGrace]

GodsGrace said:
I don't claim to understand why Jesus said what He did or how He meant it.

Get with the program, guys. - LOL

Matthew 13:13-15 NIV
This is why I speak to them in parables:
“Though seeing, they do not see;
though hearing, they do not hear or understand.
14 In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah:
“‘You will be ever hearing but never understanding;
you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.
15 For this people’s heart has become calloused;
they hardly hear with their ears,
and they have closed their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts
and turn, and I would heal them.’


[

Which program SS?
Matthew 13:13-15 is quoting from the OT.
Isaiah 42:14-

The Blindness of the People

14“I have kept silent for a long time,
I have kept still and restrained Myself.
Now like a woman in labor I will groan,
I will both gasp and pant.

15“I will lay waste the mountains and hills
And wither all their vegetation;
I will make the rivers into coastlands
And dry up the ponds.

16“I will lead the blind by a way they do not know,
In paths they do not know I will guide them.
I will make darkness into light before them
And rugged places into plains.
These are the things I will do,
And I will not leave them undone.”

17They will be turned back and be utterly put to shame,
Who trust in idols,
Who say to molten images,
“You are our gods.”

18Hear, you deaf!
And look, you blind, that you may see.

19Who is blind but My servant,
Or so deaf as My messenger whom I send?
Who is so blind as he that is at peace with Me,
Or so blind as the servant of the LORD?

20You have seen many things, but you do not observe them;
Your ears are open, but none hears.

21The LORD was pleased for His righteousness’ sake
To make the law great and glorious.

22But this is a people plundered and despoiled;
All of them are trapped in caves,
Or are hidden away in prisons;
They have become a prey with none to deliver them,
And a spoil, with none to say, “Give them back!”

23Who among you will give ear to this?
Who will give heed and listen hereafter?

24Who gave Jacob up for spoil, and Israel to plunderers?
Was it not the LORD, against whom we have sinned,
And in whose ways they were not willing to walk,
And whose law they did not obey?

25So He poured out on him the heat of His anger
And the fierceness of battle;
And it set him aflame all around,
Yet he did not recognize it;
And it burned him, but he paid no attention.


God is talking about Israelites that were in disobedience not hearing and not understanding.
He would like them to turn and understand and He would heal them of their disobedience.
This is not talking about physical healing.

 

[GodsGrace]

We're not discussing comparative religion, but Christianity.
As I posted earlier, if there was no literal Adam, then there was no fall, no promise of a saviour and consequently no Jesus.

If there was no literal Adam....
does that mean there was no literal Jesus?

I asked you some questions to which you didn't reply,
but it seems my understanding of your beliefs was correct.

Not here to change your mind.
But I do think that we should worship God and not the Bible.
Some persons worship the bible and TRUST and HAVE FAITH in the bible instead of in God and in Jesus' teachings - since He is God.

So if something is confirmed to be incorrect or does not match or some mistake is made, their faith will be harmed because they trusted a book instead of God.

God did not write the bible.
He inspired it.
I just think it's important to understand the difference so that, no matter what happens, your faith will be secure in the Lord.

 

[St. SteVen]

Which program SS?

It was in jest.
See post #133.



[

 

[GodsGrace]

It was in jest.
See post #133.

View attachment 49831

I thought it strange that you would post that!

BUT

I STILL don't understand why Jesus said that!

 

[St. SteVen]

I STILL don't understand why Jesus said that!

It was a fulfillment of prophecy, right?

Matthew 5:17 NIV
“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets;
I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

[

 

[GodsGrace]

It was a fulfillment of prophecy, right?

Matthew 5:17 NIV
“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets;
I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

[

No SS.
I meant about how Jesus said to ask anything in His name and the Father will grant it.
THIS is what I will never understand.
To me prayer isn't too much about asking for anything.
I do ask for a lot of strength.

Yes. The smallest letter or stroke....
until all is accomplished.
Fulfill....to complete.
OK.
'night.

 

[Johann]

Not only is it a bummer Lambano...
It's a terrible thing to accuse someone of either not being Christian
or not being Christian ENOUGH --- not having enough faith.
Seems some denominations believe God is Santa Clause - sitting up in heaven just waiting for our wishes
so He could make them come true.
This would cancel out the term MIRACLE ....
maybe they would be renamed Granting Wishes.

I don't claim to understand why Jesus said what He did or how He meant it.
But I do know that the Word of Faith movement has lead to many leaving the faith
or believing they don't have enough faith.

We should be helping each other - not tearing each other down.
Haven't found anyone like that on this forum, but there probably are some.

Well zed!!