Did God Foresee Adam’s Disobedience?
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Lambano
Well-Known Member
As I remember from Rabbi Abraham Heschel's book, God in Search of Man, the Hebrew word "Yirah" carries connotations of awe, wonder, reverence, and yes, some real fear, as when confronted by a being infinitely greater than oneself.
I figure a Rabbi might know a little something about Hebrew.
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Yes,just a little something.As I remember from Rabbi Abraham Heschel's book, God in Search of Man, the Hebrew word "Yirah" carries connotations of awe, wonder, reverence, and yes, some real fear, as when confronted by a being infinitely greater than oneself.
I figure a Rabbi might know a little something about Hebrew.
Fear, as when confronted by a being infinitely greater than oneself, is I think different than being terrified of God.
Dear Berean,
Adam and Eve sinned because God planned and caused them to sin. It did not happen by chance.
God caused Adam and Eve to sin by creating them spiritually marred (Jer 18:4) and subject to vanity (Rom 8:20). In this weak spiritual condition, the body of flesh that He gave them quickly started governing their spirit, causing it to have a carnal nature. With a carnal spiritual nature, Adam and Eve's minds quickly became carnal as well.
In this condition, Adam and Eve would sin and sin often just as all their offspring do. Christ even placed Satan (who He made to be the "destroyer" of mankind, Isa 54:15) in the Garden of Eden to tempt Eve after her mind became carnal:
Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food (LUST OF THE FLESH), and that it was pleasant to the eyes (LUST OF THE EYES), and a tree to be desired to make one wise (PRIDE OF LIFE), she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
By tempting Eve to sin, Satan became mankind's destroyer just as God created him to be.
These scriptures also apply:
Ecc 1:13 An experience of evil God has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.
Ecc 7:13 Consider the work of God: for who can make that straight, which he hath made crooked?
Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Prov 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
Isa 63:17 O LORD, why hast thou made us to err from thy ways, and hardened our heart from thy fear? Return for thy servants' sake, the tribes of thine inheritance.
In their spiritual carnal condition, Adam and Eve had no ability to choose following the law of God over the dictates of their flesh.
These verses apply:
Prov 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.
Prov 20:24 Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?
Jer 10:23 I know, Jehovah, that the way of man is not his own; it is not in a man that walketh to direct his steps.
Dan 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of the heavens, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?
The teaching that mankind has a free will ability to make choices is a lie from the destroyer via the spirit of anti-Christ. God is in complete control of everything that happens in this creation. Nothing happens by chance or by man's will - everything happens because God plans and causes it to happen.
So why does God do it this way?
Because this creation if for the purpose of creating many new children who will be like Him in spirit and in character. To accomplish this goal, God determined that it was necessary for mankind to have a knowledge of good and evil. For this reason, God made mankind in such a way so that mankind would sin. In the end, God will convert all mankind from the sinful creatures that we presently are (children of the devil), into a new creation that pleases Him (children of God).
Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.
It was for the purpose of mankind's spiritual conversion that God sent Christ into the world:
1John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.
When Christ finishes His work, this scripture below will be testified to be true:
1Tim 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; 4 who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
As with physical child birth, the birth of God's children is also a painful experience for both the mother (Christ) and for the child (mankind).
Lastly, concerning the "foreknowledge" of God, there are ZERO scriptures that teach that God looks into the future to see how things turn out. This is not where His foreknowledge comes from. His foreknowledge is derived from His ability to CAUSE all things to turn out exactly as He has purposed and planned. God is not a fortuneteller.
Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning (foreknowledge), and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: 11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.
Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.
Joe
I was with you until your proposal as to, "
So why does God do it this way? "
I believe: In the beginning is not delineated in scripture. We have no starting point as to how deep that beginning is.
Is it the beginning of all that is,seen and unseen?
Is it the beginning of our known galaxy?
We are told in the beginning God made the heavens and the earth. In the Bible there are more than one heaven.
Humans did not exist until God made them.
The proposal that God created humans to fall so that he could reform them anew I believe vacates the God quality of benevolence.
As I understand your proposal then regarding our creation and the potter analogy, this then speaks also of a potter who creates first a deformed,marred,pot and then later reforms it through another personality that is the potter himself reformed into a savior of the pot his initial,genesis,will and purpose created so to need saving. And this was to be understood by the renewed pot to be an example of the pitters grace toward the pot he first created marred.
And to what purpose? According to your proposal.
That the pot be grateful and recognize its creator as grace filled and generous?
When all that is created,as God tells us in his own inspired word, is both of God and from God.
In other words,the clay is of God the creator of all. And as such creates, that manifests, what we know to be clay.
I find it incongruous with regard to what God is suppose to be to believe God created something of and from his perfect self so to be imperfect.
And then later arrived as that potter,creator,later to save his creation from himself so that his reformed pot would know the potter exists and is benevolent toward the marred pits of his world.
Thanks for reading my observation.
God Bless.
Behold
Well-Known Member
That's Calvinism theological garbage, you are posting.
Listen,...
= "in Him" means that the believer, gives their FAITH.......to God, and God Puts them "IN CHRIST".
You are now born again, and this is to become "IN CHRIST"< and not until the BELIEVER.... gives THEIR FAITH, to God.
'Calvin, who was sort of crazy, = has caused many to believe that He is the Bible, and what Calvin says is "bible", as that is how the DEVIL has deceived Billions with this man's "doctrines of Devils". Hebrews 13:9
Reader,
= Calvin, redefined "God's KNOWING EVERYTHING", (Foreknowledge) as "God pre-destined" everything.
See that Redefining? That is the CORE of Calvinism. Its the CORE of "TULIP".
Calvin somehow became "mind locked".. and convinced Himself that everything that God Knows, is God pre-destining it.
I suspect it was a Demon who took over his Thinking, and caused him to PEN, "Calvinism".
Calvin and Calvinists, have a "Pre-destined" Fetish.
They have this bizarre, demonic, fascination with trying to prove that everything God does, has to be "pre-destined".
And this crazy idea, came from Calvin, who FALSELY redefined "God knowing everything, as God causing it, or pre-destining it".
So, when you talk to a Calvinist, notice how crazy they are, to try to prove that "its all pre-destined" and you will find the power of the Devil, as Calvinism, that has total control of their mind, and that is their Theology.
Calvinists are literally a TOOL of Calvinism. And John Calvin is one of the greatest Tool's of Satan.
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Dear Biblepaige,
You said:
The proposal in a synopsis of your extensive sharing and as I understand it being, God made us to fall so he could create us anew through his mercy.
IMHO, this makes for vacating any notion of God being benevolent. Or grace filled. It isn't an example of grace, IMHO, for a potter to make a pot, mar it and then reformed it later so as to enlist gratitude and subservience from the pot for having been made perfect a second time when the potter through their skill deformed the pot by his choice first.
The verses below apply to your comments:
Psa 145:17 The LORD is righteous in all his ways, and holy in all his works.
Isa 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. 9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
God is benevolent by teaching His children good and evil. The knowledge of good and evil is a vital understanding that God possesses and is one which He wants His children to possess. And in His great wisdom, God decided that it takes an experience of evil to truly learn about evil. Then, with that knowledge of evil, His children can understand and appreciate the goodness of God.
Joe
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Stumpmaster
Well-Known Member
No. Everything God made was good until after the Fall. That is when creation became marred and subject to vanity.
Dear Stumpmaster,
You are not looking at creation from the mind of Christ.
Everything that God made from the beginning was good and it was especially good for His purpose of birthing His offspring (children of God) who He desired to have a knowledge of good and evil.
Scripture clearly says that God created Adam and Eve spiritually marred and subject to vanity (sin). Eve even displayed her carnality PRIOR to her sinning - which was BEFORE the fall. In God's eyes, this was good for His purposes.
Joe
When the Creator created all things good,what can change that when all that is is God's creation?
Stumpmaster
Well-Known Member
No ... You listen ... THE CHURCH was predestined ... NOT the members that make up the Church.
Ahh, So Jehovah created Adam and Eve imperfect, planned it so that they would sin and then punished them as well as all those who came from their loins (the world of mankind) for sinning. yeah ... no!
Dear Berean,
You sound like the people who questioned Paul about the same truth:
Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. 19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Here is Paul's answer and my answer to you:
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
I suspect God holds mankind accountable for our sins (even though He was the cause of us sinning) so that we can learn right from wrong.
Joe
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Ritajanice
Born-Again
I guess he would have known, after all God knows beginning to end.
Did he not give Adam a choice....on saying that would Adam have known what that choice entailed, if he disobeyed what God said.
God put me in a situation 33 yrs ago....he showed me his will in an area of my life, that is what I believe.
Now, I have a choice to make, to believe what he made known to me by divine revelation....that his will be done.
Or do I deny his word and take my own action......I know what the consequences of disobeying Gods will would be......therefore I wait on him, in this situation until the day my physical body dies...
He showed me his will , I believe his will be done...your will be done Father God not my will, no matter how heart broken I have been in this situation....I wait on you, you can do what I see as impossible....” Possible “ Praise your Holy Name!
Did he not give Adam a choice....on saying that would Adam have known what that choice entailed, if he disobeyed what God said.
God put me in a situation 33 yrs ago....he showed me his will in an area of my life, that is what I believe.
Now, I have a choice to make, to believe what he made known to me by divine revelation....that his will be done.
Or do I deny his word and take my own action......I know what the consequences of disobeying Gods will would be......therefore I wait on him, in this situation until the day my physical body dies...
He showed me his will , I believe his will be done...your will be done Father God not my will, no matter how heart broken I have been in this situation....I wait on you, you can do what I see as impossible....” Possible “ Praise your Holy Name!
That would make human will stronger in the ability to overcome God's.
Dear Biblepaige,
I wholeheartedly agree with your statement. Human "will" is nothing for Christ to overcome:
Dan 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of the heavens, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?
Nor does mankind even have a "free will" as these scriptures below proclaim.
Prov 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.
Prov 20:24 Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?
Prov 21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.
Isa 26:12 O Jehovah, thou appointest peace to us, for, all our works also thou hast wrought for us.
Isa 44:18 They have not known nor understood: for he hath shut their eyes, that they cannot see; and their hearts, that they cannot understand.
Jer 10:23 I know, Jehovah, that the way of man is not his own; it is not in a man that walketh to direct his steps.
Phil 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
John 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
When a apostate believer reads verses like the ones above, they are forced to reject them. Why? Because they have fully accepted Satan's "another gospel" which mixes man's works (Old Covenant) with the works of Christ (New Covenant). If they were to accept the truth of what the verses above teach, their worldly paradigm with which the "see" Christ would crumble. And this they cannot allow.
Scripture teaches that when Christ is ready to begin the salvation process for an unbeliever, He will spiritually come that person without their asking or permission and freely give them the Early Rain of the Spirit (like He did with Paul on the Damascus Road). After Christ gives the person this free gift, they will become a believer and have a "measure of faith". The person had no "free will" ability to decide differently.
1Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.
Since this is the way Christ works to save a person, the person has nothing from which they can boast concerning their salvation.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
However, the Early Rain of the Spirit will NOT convert the new believer (a babe) because they remain carnally minded and spiritually blind. In the weak spiritual condition, the believer will ultimately fall from grace and become apostate. For the Elect though, Christ will come to them a second time (the second coming of Christ) and pour out the Latter Rain of the Spirit, followed by judgment. This spiritual work of Christ will restore and convert the fallen away Elect believer. This is how Christ builds His true church.
Those who are not chosen to be saints (the many who are only called) will die in their apostate condition and will receive their portion with the unbelievers in the Lake of Fire. But before they perish (the penalty of sin), Christ will have mercy upon them all and freely give them the Early and Latter Rains of the Spirit. With both the Early and Latter Rains of the Spirit, the "lost" person will be born again as a child of God who will then be gathered to heaven. Justice will be satisfied by the death of the child of the devil (who they used to be).
These verses apply:
Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law: justice, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain (both the Early and Latter Rain of the Spirit) on the just and on the unjust.
After Christ has saved (converted) the last person in the final age, all of Satan's children (all mankind) will cease to exist. However, the Kingdom of Heaven will be that much fuller. At that time, the scripture below will be testified to be true:
1Tim 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; 4 who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
Joe
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