Did God Foresee Adam’s Disobedience?

[marks]

Dear marks,
Your comments are untrue and only show your ignorance of how Christ saves mankind. To be saved, Christ knows that mankind must be "born again". This happens when Christ changes us spiritually. After this change, a person will be able to understand and love God. Children of the devil have no such ability.

Joe

John 1:10-13 KJV
10) He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11) He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12) But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13) Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

These are the one's God saves, those who receive Him, those who believe, to them He gives rebirth.

These are written in active voice verbs, meaning plainly and clearly, this is action done by the person themself, not done to them by God or some other agency. The one who receives Him, this is the one who does the action. The same is true of the one who believes, that person does the action, it's not done for them or to them, which would require passive voice verbs.

Much love!

 

[FaithWillDo]

John 1:10-13 KJV
10) He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11) He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12) But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13) Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

These are the one's God saves, those who receive Him, those who believe, to them He gives rebirth.

These are written in active voice verbs, meaning plainly and clearly, this is action done by the person themself, not done to them by God or some other agency. The one who receives Him, this is the one who does the action. The same is true of the one who believes, that person does the action, it's not done for them or to them, which would require passive voice verbs.

Much love!

Dea marks,
The "many" who received Christ are the ones who were given the Early Rain of the Spirit from God. They received Christ not by their own "will" but by God's "will".

You are fitting your belief in man's works into scripture when it is not there.

Look at what Christ told Peter. This truth applies to everyone who accepts Christ.

Mat 16:15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? 16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. 17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Until a person is given the Early Rain of the Spirit, they (flesh and blood) cannot understand and accept Christ as their Lord.

1Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

You are putting the horse before the cart so to speak. Christ is the one who acts first, not mankind.

Joe

 

[GodsGrace]

Dear Berean,
Adam and Eve sinned because God planned and caused them to sin. It did not happen by chance.

Where does the bible state that Adam and Eve sinned because God planned for them to sin?

God caused Adam and Eve to sin by creating them spiritually marred (Jer 18:4)

Jeremiah 18:4 means that the potter RUINED the vessel.
Where in the story of Genesis does it state that God ruined Adam and Eve?

Instead, didn't God warn them to stay away from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil?
Genesis 2:15-17
15Then the LORD God took the man and put him into the garden of Eden to cultivate it and keep it.
16The LORD God commanded the man, saying, “From any tree of the garden you may eat freely;
17but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die.”

God even WARNED the man telling him that if he ate from the tree he would die.

Does God not give correct information and warnings to his creatures? (us).

and subject to vanity (Rom 8:20). In this weak spiritual condition, the body of flesh that He gave them quickly started governing their spirit, causing it to have a carnal nature. With a carnal spiritual nature, Adam and Eve's minds quickly became carnal as well.

This is a strange understanding of Genesis.
I read in that story that God stated that everything He created was good.
Genesis 1:10 GOD SAW THAT IT WAS GOOD.
Genesis 1:12 AND GOD SAW THAT IT WAS GOOD.
Genesis 1:18 AND GOD SAW THAT IT WAS GOOD.
Genesis 1:21 AND GOD SAW THAT IT WAS GOOD.
Genesis 1:25 AND GOD SAW THAT IT WAS GOOD.
Genesis 1:31 BEHOLD, IT WAS VERY GOOD.

God declared everything He had made to be good and to be very good.
Was He lying?
Is God a liar?
Can we not trust the OT?

If God declares that He made something GOOD....
I think we should take Him at His word and believe that it was GOOD.

 

[GodsGrace]

Dea marks,
The "many" who received Christ are the ones who were given the Early Rain of the Spirit from God. They received Christ not by their own "will" but by God's "will".

You are fitting your belief in man's works into scripture when it is not there.

Look at what Christ told Peter. This truth applies to everyone who accepts Christ.

Mat 16:15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? 16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. 17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Until a person is given the Early Rain of the Spirit, they (flesh and blood) cannot understand and accept Christ as their Lord.

1Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

You are putting the horse before the cart so to speak. Christ is the one who acts first, not mankind.

Joe

Mark 16:15 has nothing to do with the Ordo Salutis.

Read Ephesians 2:8 and please explain how salvation comes before faith:

8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

THROUGH faith
we have been SAVED
by the Grace of God - God's LOVE for His creation

We are saved through faith.
Through faith we are saved.

 

[marks]

Dea marks,
The "many" who received Christ are the ones who were given the Early Rain of the Spirit from God. They received Christ not by their own "will" but by God's "will".

No this is incorrect. The syntax of the verse - the spelling form that dictates the function of grammar - refutes that view.

Again, the verbs would have to be in the passive voice for your assertion to be true, and they are not, they are in the active voice. This is a matter of just reading the verse and following the grammar.



Here we see the same thing, "we received the reconciliation", again, active voice verb.

Below we see the same active voice verbs,


Confessing and believing are active voice, something you do, while "you shall be being saved" is passive voice, it is done to you.

If you yourself believe and confess, active voice, you shall be saved, passive voice.

If you believe the sayings of the Bible, this is what it says, you ought to believe it.

Much love!

 

[Biblepaige]

Dear Biblepaige,
I don't believe it affirms marks' post.

Marks was arguing that God looked into the future and saw that Adam was going to sin because of his free will ability to make that choice. This is not what Paul was teaching in Rom 9:17-19. In that passage, it was God's "will" for Pharoah's heart to be hardened. Pharoah had no free will ability to decide differently. This was also true of Adam and Eve. God wanted Adam and Eve and all their offspring to have an experience of evil, so God made Adam and Eve in such a way that the only choice they would make was to sin. God even placed Satan in the Garden to tempt Eve.

Joe

We can agree to disagree.

God Bless.

 

[Stumpmaster]

That would make human will stronger in the ability to overcome God's.

Only if God allowed it. Jesus gave the rich young ruler an option.

 

[Biblepaige]

Only if God allowed it. Jesus gave the rich young ruler an option.

“The heart of man plans his way, but the Lord establishes his steps.” (Proverbs 16:9)

Jesus being Omniscient God The Word made flesh would know which option would be chosen.
I think that we must consider the infinite qualities within the Sovereignty of God.

 

[FaithWillDo]

Where does the bible state that Adam and Eve sinned because God planned for them to sin?

Dear GodsGrace,
You asked:
Where does the bible state that Adam and Eve sinned because God planned for them to sin?

Ecc 1:13 An experience of evil God has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.

Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.

Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

Before Eve sinned, Eve displayed all the signs of having a carnal mind which is the reason why mankind sins:

Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food (LUST OF THE FLESH), and that it was pleasant to the eyes (LUST OF THE EYES), and a tree to be desired to make one wise (PRIDE OF LIFE), she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

The verses below also apply and show that Adam and Eve's path was directed by God to sin just as all mankind steps are also directed by God:

Prov 20:24 Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?

Jer 10:23 I know, Jehovah, that the way of man is not his own; it is not in a man that walketh to direct his steps.

You said:
Jeremiah 18:4 means that the potter RUINED the vessel.
Where in the story of Genesis does it state that God ruined Adam and Eve?

Scripture teaches truth "here a little and there a little" (Isa 28:9-12) so we have to look elsewhere in scripture to learn the whole truth of a matter. Eve sinned because she was created spiritually marred and carnally minded. This is why Eve (and all mankind) put her desires over obeying the commandments of God. All mankind does this, too, and that is why all mankind sins.

The "potter" is Christ who is mankind's God and Creator. He is the one who spiritually marred mankind and made mankind subject to vanity. The flaw in the vessel is a spiritual flaw and is not in the body of flesh. We can know this because Christ came in the world with the same body of flesh as mankind but He was spiritually perfect (full measure of the Spirit) and because of such, He never sinned.

Isa 64:8 But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.

Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.

Christ is now in the process of making mankind into "another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make":

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

You said:
Instead, didn't God warn them to stay away from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil?
Genesis 2:15-17
15Then the LORD God took the man and put him into the garden of Eden to cultivate it and keep it.
16The LORD God commanded the man, saying, “From any tree of the garden you may eat freely;
17but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die.”

God even WARNED the man telling him that if he ate from the tree he would die.

Yes, God warned Adam and Eve to obey Him just as He warned the Nation of Israel to obey Him, too. But in both cases, it was not within their power to obey God because of the flaw in mankind's spiritual makeup. Mankind's spirit is carnal which has made the mind of mankind carnal as well. Christ certainly knew this about man and knew that man cannot follow His commandments perfectly. Mankind will always eventually sin against God and there is nothing that mankind can do about it.

Because God knows this truth about mankind, He tells mankind the proper way to live and behave so that when mankind realizes they cannot do it, they will turn to Christ who can do it for them. The "law" is mankind's schoolmaster which was given to led us to Christ and His work of converting us into a new vessel.

You said:
God declared everything He had made to be good and to be very good.
Was He lying?
Is God a liar?
Can we not trust the OT?

You are not viewing this creation with the mind of Christ. God's purpose for this creation is to create many new children who will have a knowledge of good and evil and be spiritually perfect as He is perfect. To have a knowledge of good and evil, God decided to teach mankind experientially about evil. This is why God created mankind to be spiritually marred and subject to vanity (sin). After the creation week was finished, God said that it was good - and is was good for the purposes that He intended.

Joe

 

[FaithWillDo]

Mark 16:15 has nothing to do with the Ordo Salutis.

Read Ephesians 2:8 and please explain how salvation comes before faith:

8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

THROUGH faith
we have been SAVED
by the Grace of God - God's LOVE for His creation

We are saved through faith.
Through faith we are saved.

Dear GodsGrace,
Salvation does not come before faith and I do not teach that it does. Faith in Christ is what makes Christ's pathway straight for Him to come and convert a person into the new vessel. This spiritual process is called conversion and is taught over and over again in scripture "here a little and there a little".

Below is the pathway to salvation that Christ will cause His Elect to travel. This pathway was established by Christ shortly after Paul's death when the spirit of anti-Christ came and devoured the church (only the unconverted believers/the babes):

When Christ decides to begin the process of salvation for a person, He will come to them without their asking and without their permission. When He comes, Christ will freely give them the Early Rain of the Spirit. Christ gives the person this gift because of His grace and not because of anything (works) that the person did to deserve it. And because the person is carnal, they are veiled from knowing when it happened. However, they can know that it happened later when they make a confession of faith after the Gospel is presented to them. Without the Spirit (even the small amount of the Early Rain), no man can call Jesus "Lord" and with the Spirit, they will always accept Him.

1Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

The Early Rain of the Spirit is what Peter received prior to him recognizing that Jesus was the Christ.

Mat 16:15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? 16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. 17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Christ calls Peter "blessed" because He was given the Early Rain of the Spirit which revealed who Jesus actually was. Christ then says that the only reason he could "see" this truth was because it was revealed to him by His Father. Peter had no ability of his own to know this truth about Jesus if he had not been given to Peter (via the Early Rain of the Spirit). Christ then continued and said that it is upon this rock (the foundation) that He will build His church. And since Peter's confession originated from having the Early Rain of the Spirit, so will everyone else's confession.

Since the Early Rain of the Spirit is given in "measure" (a small amount, a "seed"), it will leave the new believer carnally minded, spiritually blind and unconverted. This is the spiritual condition of all new "babes" in Christ. They will have a "measure of faith" but little else beyond knowing "Christ and Him crucified". It is at this point that the person will enter the church.

Next, Satan will come to the new believer and plant his seed within them, too. His seed is the spirit of anti-Christ. Now the new believer as both the Early Rain of the Spirit and the spirit of anti-Christ within themselves. This causes a spiritual war to develop over who will govern the person. Since the Early Rain of the Spirit is given in "measure" and the person is unable to understand the spiritual truths of the New Covenant, Satan has no trouble deceiving the new believer into thinking that he is Christ (an angel of Light) and that his lies are truth. Paul mentions it here:

2Cor 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

Christ mentions it here:

Mat 12:43 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none. 44 Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished. 45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself SEVEN other spirits (represents the spirit of anti-Christ) more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.

After the new believer is deceived, they will accept Satan's "another gospel" which mixes "works" with faith. When the believer commits this sin, they will "fall from grace" and lose their salvation. This is the "sin that leads to death" that Paul and John mentioned in their letters.

The believer will remain in this fallen away condition until they die OR (if they are one of the Elect) until Christ restores their faith by giving them the Latter Rain of the Spirit. Peter received the Latter Rain of the Spirit on the Day of Pentecost with the other 119 Jewish Elect. Judgment also fell on him and he was converted. Paul received the Latter Rain of the Spirit after being in Damascus for three days.

Besides restoring the believer's faith, the Latter Rain of the Spirit will also heal the person's spiritual blindness and cause the person to be "born again". With their blindness healed, Christ will appear and gather the new child of God to heaven (spiritually speaking). In other words, the believer is added to the Kingdom of Heaven but they will still physically dwell on the earth until they die. After this event, judgment will follow and remove the spirit of anti-Christ and the Great Harlot (represents the person's carnal nature) from within the believer. Both will be cast into the Lake of Fire for destruction. Mat 24:37-41 and Rev 19:11-21 teach this truth. After the person's judgment is complete, the believer is converted and will never fall away again. Their salvation is secured and they will receive their rewards upon their resurrection from the grave.

This is how Christ builds His church and He starts with the foundation of the confession of faith.

Joe

 

[FaithWillDo]

No this is incorrect. The syntax of the verse - the spelling form that dictates the function of grammar - refutes that view.

Again, the verbs would have to be in the passive voice for your assertion to be true, and they are not, they are in the active voice. This is a matter of just reading the verse and following the grammar.

View attachment 50727

Here we see the same thing, "we received the reconciliation", again, active voice verb.

Below we see the same active voice verbs,

View attachment 50728
Confessing and believing are active voice, something you do, while "you shall be being saved" is passive voice, it is done to you.

If you yourself believe and confess, active voice, you shall be saved, passive voice.

If you believe the sayings of the Bible, this is what it says, you ought to believe it.

Much love!

Dear marks,
Yes, confessing and believing is something that we do BUT it is caused to happen by Christ after He gives us both the Early and Latter Rains of the Spirit.

Prov 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.

Phil 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Confessing and believing can come no other way. When you claim these works as your own, you are stealing from Christ and are committing the sin that leads to death (mixing your own works with faith).

Joe

 

[GodsGrace]

We can agree to disagree.

God Bless.

Tough nut to Crack.

 

[GodsGrace]

Dear GodsGrace,
You asked:
Where does the bible state that Adam and Eve sinned because God planned for them to sin?

Ecc 1:13 An experience of evil God has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.

What version are you reading?
What do you think Ecc 1:13 is stating?

Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.

So you think God makes mistakes?

Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

What does Romans 8:20 have to do with your statement that God made Adam and Eve GOOD?

I can't spend time trying to exegete verses you don't seem to grasp

My statement is that GOD MADE ADAM AND EVE PERFECT and He declared them TO BE GOOD...
in fact some theologians would say VERY GOOD (although that could be debated).

So,
YOU have to show with some scripture that states that God did NOT make Adam and Eve perfect...
none of your verses state this.

Before Eve sinned, Eve displayed all the signs of having a carnal mind which is the reason why mankind sins:

Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food (LUST OF THE FLESH), and that it was pleasant to the eyes (LUST OF THE EYES), and a tree to be desired to make one wise (PRIDE OF LIFE), she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

If a food looks good to you,
If something is pleasant for your eyes,,,
You have not sinned yet, have you?

These verses are explaining WHY satan was able to deceive Eve.
Satan decieves us in exactly the same way.....the verses are a warning.....

Could you tell us what gifts God gave to Adam and Eve that we do not have?

Did they HAVE any gifts?
Or were they just two blokes God created to have some fun with?

The verses below also apply and show that Adam and Eve's path was directed by God to sin just as all mankind steps are also directed by God:

Prov 20:24 Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?

Jer 10:23 I know, Jehovah, that the way of man is not his own; it is not in a man that walketh to direct his steps.

I'm sorry Faith, but you're going to have to study your bible a little more.
This conversation will soon come to an end because no understanding is shown here.
Proverbs 20:24 A mans' steps are directed by the Lord. God is trying to direct you by taking the right action for the situations that come up just before that verse and just after it.

If Proverbs 20:24 could be used to show that God INTENTINALLY mislead Adam and Even.
then
How does Proverbs 3:5-6 make any sense?

Would you care to reconcile those two verses?

I don't now if you're reformed or just misunderstanding scripture....
I do know for sure that the reformed faith causes many conflicts in scripture because the entire concept (yes, concept) is not biblical and thus causes many problems that have to be waved away as "mysteries".
As if God does not want us to know Him. (as revealed in scripture).

You said:
Jeremiah 18:4 means that the potter RUINED the vessel.
Where in the story of Genesis does it state that God ruined Adam and Eve?

Scripture teaches truth "here a little and there a little" (Isa 28:9-12) so we have to look elsewhere in scripture to learn the whole truth of a matter. Eve sinned because she was created spiritually marred and carnally minded. This is why Eve (and all mankind) put her desires over obeying the commandments of God. All mankind does this, too, and that is why all mankind sins.

Yes sir. We DO have to look elsewhere is scripture - something YOU are not doing.

You say Eve put her own desires above Gods.

OK. So you believe Eve had her own desires.
This means she had free will.

So how does you using Proverbs 20:24 make any sense?

The "potter" is Christ who is mankind's God and Creator. He is the one who spiritually marred mankind and made mankind subject to vanity. The flaw in the vessel is a spiritual flaw and is not in the body of flesh. We can know this because Christ came in the world with the same body of flesh as mankind but He was spiritually perfect (full measure of the Spirit) and because of such, He never sinned.

Isa 64:8 But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.

Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.

Christ is now in the process of making mankind into "another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make":

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Already replied to.

You said:
Instead, didn't God warn them to stay away from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil?
Genesis 2:15-17
15Then the LORD God took the man and put him into the garden of Eden to cultivate it and keep it.
16The LORD God commanded the man, saying, “From any tree of the garden you may eat freely;
17but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die.”

God even WARNED the man telling him that if he ate from the tree he would die.

Yes, God warned Adam and Eve to obey Him just as He warned the Nation of Israel to obey Him, too. But in both cases, it was not within their power to obey God because of the flaw in mankind's spiritual makeup.

But you said above that Eve PUT HER OWN DESIRE before God's.
So why are you now saying that it's not within man's power to obey God?

Your inconsistency is incredible.

Mankind's spirit is carnal which has made the mind of mankind carnal as well. Christ certainly knew this about man and knew that man cannot follow His commandments perfectly. Mankind will always eventually sin against God and there is nothing that mankind can do about it.

Well actually, there is something mankind can do about it.
Man can decide to turn to God and obey the gospel and all of God's commandments.

And BTW, God KNOWING man cannot follow His rules automatically....
does not mean
That God CREATED MAN to be UNABLE to follow His rules.

Because God knows this truth about mankind, He tells mankind the proper way to live and behave so that when mankind realizes they cannot do it, they will turn to Christ who can do it for them. The "law" is mankind's schoolmaster which was given to led us to Christ and His work of converting us into a new vessel.

You said:
God declared everything He had made to be good and to be very good.
Was He lying?
Is God a liar?
Can we not trust the OT?

You are not viewing this creation with the mind of Christ. God's purpose for this creation is to create many new children who will have a knowledge of good and evil and be spiritually perfect as He is perfect. To have a knowledge of good and evil, God decided to teach mankind experientially about evil. This is why God created mankind to be spiritually marred and subject to vanity (sin). After the creation week was finished, God said that it was good - and is was good for the purposes that He intended.

Joe

Joe, you have your very own reason for evil. It's interesting, except for the part that God PURPOSEFULLY created man marred.
You'd be willing to serve this God that created man marred?
Let me go to the next post.

 

[GodsGrace]

Dear GodsGrace,
Salvation does not come before faith and I do not teach that it does.

Teach?
You teach?
You have a PhD after your name?

I'd like to post this verse for you:
James 3:1
1Not many of you should become teachers, my fellow believers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly.

Faith in Christ is what makes Christ's pathway straight for Him to come and convert a person into the new vessel. This spiritual process is called conversion and is taught over and over again in scripture "here a little and there a little".

Below is the pathway to salvation that Christ will cause His Elect to travel. This pathway was established by Christ shortly after Paul's death when the spirit of anti-Christ came and devoured the church (only the unconverted believers/the babes):

When Christ decides to begin the process of salvation for a person, He will come to them without their asking and without their permission. When He comes, Christ will freely give them the Early Rain of the Spirit. Christ gives the person this gift because of His grace and not because of anything (works) that the person did to deserve it. And because the person is carnal, they are veiled from knowing when it happened. However, they can know that it happened later when they make a confession of faith after the Gospel is presented to them. Without the Spirit (even the small amount of the Early Rain), no man can call Jesus "Lord" and with the Spirit, they will always accept Him.

1Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

The Early Rain of the Spirit is what Peter received prior to him recognizing that Jesus was the Christ.

Mat 16:15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? 16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. 17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

I'm ignoring your verses because they really have little or nothing to do with your statements....
however, it sounds like I agree but can't be sure due to your previous post.

To WHOM does Jesus give this first rain water you speak of...
which other Christians call GRACE....

Christ calls Peter "blessed" because He was given the Early Rain of the Spirit which revealed who Jesus actually was. Christ then says that the only reason he could "see" this truth was because it was revealed to him by His Father. Peter had no ability of his own to know this truth about Jesus if he had not been given to Peter (via the Early Rain of the Spirit). Christ then continued and said that it is upon this rock (the foundation) that He will build His church. And since Peter's confession originated from having the Early Rain of the Spirit, so will everyone else's confession.

Does Father reveal THIS TRUTH to everyone or just to a select few?

Since the Early Rain of the Spirit is given in "measure" (a small amount, a "seed"), it will leave the new believer carnally minded, spiritually blind and unconverted. This is the spiritual condition of all new "babes" in Christ. They will have a "measure of faith" but little else beyond knowing "Christ and Him crucified". It is at this point that the person will enter the church.

Next, Satan will come to the new believer and plant his seed within them, too. His seed is the spirit of anti-Christ. Now the new believer as both the Early Rain of the Spirit and the spirit of anti-Christ within themselves. This causes a spiritual war to develop over who will govern the person. Since the Early Rain of the Spirit is given in "measure" and the person is unable to understand the spiritual truths of the New Covenant, Satan has no trouble deceiving the new believer into thinking that he is Christ (an angel of Light) and that his lies are truth. Paul mentions it here:

2Cor 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

Christ mentions it here:

Mat 12:43 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none. 44 Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished. 45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself SEVEN other spirits (represents the spirit of anti-Christ) more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.

After the new believer is deceived, they will accept Satan's "another gospel" which mixes "works" with faith. When the believer commits this sin, they will "fall from grace" and lose their salvation. This is the "sin that leads to death" that Paul and John mentioned in their letters.

The believer will remain in this fallen away condition until they die OR (if they are one of the Elect) until Christ restores their faith by giving them the Latter Rain of the Spirit. Peter received the Latter Rain of the Spirit on the Day of Pentecost with the other 119 Jewish Elect. Judgment also fell on him and he was converted. Paul received the Latter Rain of the Spirit after being in Damascus for three days.

Besides restoring the believer's faith, the Latter Rain of the Spirit will also heal the person's spiritual blindness and cause the person to be "born again". With their blindness healed, Christ will appear and gather the new child of God to heaven (spiritually speaking). In other words, the believer is added to the Kingdom of Heaven but they will still physically dwell on the earth until they die. After this event, judgment will follow and remove the spirit of anti-Christ and the Great Harlot (represents the person's carnal nature) from within the believer. Both will be cast into the Lake of Fire for destruction. Mat 24:37-41 and Rev 19:11-21 teach this truth. After the person's judgment is complete, the believer is converted and will never fall away again. Their salvation is secured and they will receive their rewards upon their resurrection from the grave.

This is how Christ builds His church and He starts with the foundation of the confession of faith.

Joe

Joe, our conversation is sadly ended.
You have so much heresy and odd ideas in your posts that I can't even address them all.

If you care to address ONLY what I've posted, fine - I'll reply to that.

But I'll ignore the rest as your language and ideas are most odd.

 

[GodsGrace]

Dear marks,
Yes, confessing and believing is something that we do BUT it is caused to happen by Christ after He gives us both the Early and Latter Rains of the Spirit.

Prov 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.

Phil 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Confessing and believing can come no other way. When you claim these works as your own, you are stealing from Christ and are committing the sin that leads to death (mixing your own works with faith).

Joe

Confessing and believing are works?

Your post if for @marks but I'd like to see some verses that state that confessing and believing is a work -
especially in light of the fact that Paul made it a POINT to state that faith is NOT a work.....
and confessing and believing are both involved with having faith.

Paul states that faith is not a work:

Romans 4:4-5
4Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation.
5However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

To the one who works, wages are credited as AN OBLIGATION.
To the one who DOES NOT WORK, faith is credited as righteousness.

Romans 11:6
6And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

God's remanant is chosen BY GRACE....
so it cannot be by works.

If the remnant were chosen by works....
then it would not be by grace.

WORKS AND GRACE DO NOT MIX.

 

[marks]

Paul states that faith is not a work:

Romans 4:4-5
4Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation.
5However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

To the one who works, wages are credited as AN OBLIGATION.
To the one who DOES NOT WORK, faith is credited as righteousness.

It's plain to see to anyone who looks. So what does that mean about those who don't see this? Either they are not looking, or they do not understand what they are looking at, or they are denying the meaning of what they are looking at.

Clearly, faith contrasted to works shows the distinction.

Much love!

 

[FaithWillDo]

So you think God makes mistakes?

Dear GodsGrace,
You asked:
What version are you reading?
What do you think Ecc 1:13 is stating?

The translation is from the Concordant Literal Translation.

Here is the full verse:

Ecc 1:13 Ecc 1:13 I applied my heart to inquiring and exploring by wisdom all that is done under the heavens; an experience of evil (ra) God has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.

You asked:
So you think God makes mistakes?

Absolutely not. God made Adam and Eve spiritually marred and subject to vanity on purpose. He created them this way so that they would sin and experience evil. In this way, they would experientially learn about good and evil.

So why do you believe that Adam and Eve sinned?

The apostate church teaches that God took a chance with Adam and Eve by giving them a free will ability. With this free will ability, Adam and Eve choose to disobey God. However, this teaching has ZERO scriptural support and is contradicted by numerous scriptures. The truth is that God did not give Adam and Eve a free will ability. Only God the Father has a free will ability to do as He pleases. Everyone else's "will" is governed by God.

Because of this belief in man's free will ability, Paul said this about apostate believers:

2Thes 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there comes a falling away first, and that MAN OF SIN be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

The Doctrine of Free Will taught by the apostate church is the reason that the man of sin (the worsen child of the devil) sits in God's temple (place where the Holy Spirit resides) claiming to be God. This is the Abomination of Desolation the Christ mentions in Mat 24:15.

You said:
YOU have to show with some scripture that states that God did NOT make Adam and Eve perfect...
none of your verses state this.

Jer 18:4 and Rom 8:20 clearly state that Adam & Eve were created spiritually marred and subject to vanity. This is the reason they sinned. When Christ came into the world, He received the same type of physical body that Adam and Eve were given, BUT Christ was spiritually perfect. It was because He was spiritually perfect that He never sinned. After Christ converts a spiritual marred and sinful person, they will be like Christ and will likewise never sin. This is how Christ saves mankind and produces new children for His Father.

You said:
If a food looks good to you,
If something is pleasant for your eyes,,,
You have not sinned yet, have you?

These verses are explaining WHY satan was able to deceive Eve.
Satan decieves us in exactly the same way.....the verses are a warning.....

Could you tell us what gifts God gave to Adam and Eve that we do not have?

Did they HAVE any gifts?
Or were they just two blokes God created to have some fun with?

Eve sinned because she was spiritually marred and became carnally minded. Because of this, she put her needs above following the commandments of God. Satan's temptation just exposed what was already "within" Eve (and Adam, too). All their offspring are just as spiritually marred and carnally minded as they were. For that reason, the Father sent Christ into the world to spiritually change mankind into a new spiritually perfect vessel. This is the purpose for this creation.

As for "gifts" that Adam and Eve were given, scripture never mentions that they were given any. They were completely carnal and because of such, they became sinful.

Your comment about "just two blokes" is disrespectful to God. God made Adam and Eve to be His children and He loved them very much. And because He loves them (and all their offspring), God the Father sent Christ into the world to change mankind into a new spiritually perfect vessel. It is with great tribulation that God births new children who will be like Him.

You said:
Proverbs 20:24 A mans' steps are directed by the Lord. God is trying to direct you by taking the right action for the situations that come up just before that verse and just after it.

God is not "trying" to direct our steps, He is doing it.

This verse applies:

Mat 4:4 But he answered and said, it is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Some of God's words that mankind follow are "evil" words:

Lam 3:38 Out of the mouth of the Most High doth not there proceed evil and good?

God is giving mankind an experience of evil and since God controls all things, He is the cause of that evil. When God's purpose for evil has been satisfied, God will end it.

Listen to the words of Job:

Job 2:10 But he said to her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. We have also received good from God, and should we not receive evil? In all this Job did not sin with his lips.

You then asked:
How does Proverbs 3:5-6 make any sense?

Prov 3:5 Trust unto Jehovah with all thy heart, And unto thine own understanding lean not. 6 In all thy ways know thou Him, And He doth make straight thy paths.

Presently, mankind is following the "crooked" path of approaching God by trying to make themselves acceptable to God by their own works. This is called "religion" and is the way that Satan's "another gospel" teaches. For that reason, scripture calls Satan the "crooked serpent". To change mankind from following the crooked way, God sent Christ into the world to show mankind the "straight way" which leads to God. The straight way is placing our faith & trust in Him to supply all our needs. After Christ converts a person, they will only approach God by the straight way. They will then understand that their "works" were nothing more than "filthy rags".

CONTINUED ON THE NEXT POST...

 

[FaithWillDo]

So you think God makes mistakes?

CONTINUED FROM THE PREVIOUS POST...

You said:
You say Eve put her own desires above Gods.

OK. So you believe Eve had her own desires.
This means she had free will.

So how does you using Proverbs 20:24 make any sense?

No. Eve had a "will" but it was not free. You are making that assumption rather than letting scripture tell you if her "will" was free or not.

Dan 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of the heavens, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

At this time, it is God's "will" for mankind to be carnal and sinful. After mankind realizes that they can never be good enough, Christ will convert each person of mankind into a spiritually perfect vessel. This is why Christ came into the world.

1John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.

Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Luke 5:39 No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better.

The Old Covenant (old wine) is based upon man's works to make a person acceptable to God. However, man's works will not ever justify us before God because we are spiritually marred and imperfect. After a person realizes this truth, they will be lead to Christ and the New Wine which will change us and justify us before God.

After being given the Early Rain of the Spirit, all new believers will prefer and drink the old wine after having "tasted" the new wine. When they consume the old wine, they will be mixing works with faith and will fall from grace. No new believer (a babe) can avoid it happening to them. This truth is taught by Isa 28:9-12 and Mat 12:43-45.

You asked:
But you said above that Eve PUT HER OWN DESIRE before God's.
So why are you now saying that it's not within man's power to obey God?

I assume you meant to say "dis" obey God?

God made Eve spiritually marred and carnally minded so that she would disobey God's laws. This is exactly what God's "will" was for her at that time. After God's purpose for Eve's disobedience has be satisfied, God will convert Eve so that she will obey His laws. When that happens, that will be God's "will" for her at that time, too.

You said:
Well actually, there is something mankind can do about it.
Man can decide to turn to God and obey the gospel and all of God's commandments.

And BTW, God KNOWING man cannot follow His rules automatically....
does not mean
That God CREATED MAN to be UNABLE to follow His rules.

What you have stated above comes from Satan "another gospel". There is no truth in it. You are still wearing the filthy rags of man's works. You need to turn to Christ for all your needs because He is the only one who can. When Christ is ready for you to do so, He will give you the Latter Rain of the Spirit so that you will approach Him solely faith. You are at the mercy of Christ to save you. You have nothing you can contribute toward you own salvation.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Since you believe that you are the one responsible for having faith and accepting Christ as your Savior, you do have something to boast about to others who didn't make those correct choices. By believing the way you do, you must believe that you are wiser, smarter or just not as evil as those who reject Christ. This belief comes from the spirit of anti-Christ.

Final comment: Your understanding of scripture is "filtered" through your "works" based belief system. You need to turn to Christ and ask Him for "eyes that can see". He is your only hope.

Joe

 

[GodsGrace]

It's plain to see to anyone who looks. So what does that mean about those who don't see this? Either they are not looking, or they do not understand what they are looking at, or they are denying the meaning of what they are looking at.

Clearly, faith contrasted to works shows the distinction.

Much love!

Or they're going to a church that slowly but surely confuses the mind by incorrectly exegeting verses to agree with Calvin, and the like, instead of what the NT actually says and is in plain sight for all to see.

Anyone reading the NT on their own would NEVER come to the conclusion that God chooses persons to be saved or not.
It's just not there.

 

[FaithWillDo]

Confessing and believing are works?

Your post if for @marks but I'd like to see some verses that state that confessing and believing is a work -
especially in light of the fact that Paul made it a POINT to state that faith is NOT a work.....
and confessing and believing are both involved with having faith.

Paul states that faith is not a work:

Romans 4:4-5
4Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation.
5However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

To the one who works, wages are credited as AN OBLIGATION.
To the one who DOES NOT WORK, faith is credited as righteousness.

Romans 11:6
6And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

God's remanant is chosen BY GRACE....
so it cannot be by works.

If the remnant were chosen by works....
then it would not be by grace.

WORKS AND GRACE DO NOT MIX.

Dear GodsGrace,
You asked:
Confessing and believing are works?

Yes, they are works if you claim them as coming from your own free will ability.

You are denying the truth that is taught in the verses below:

Phil 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Deut 29:4 Yet the LORD hath not given you a heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day.

Prov 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.

Isa 26:12 O Jehovah, thou appointest peace to us, for, all our works also thou hast wrought for us.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

1Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

Rom 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

Even our repentance comes from God:

2Tim 2:25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

We are completely at the mercy of Christ to save us - and that certainly includes Him giving us our faith, repentance, love for Him, etc.

You said:
Paul states that faith is not a work:

Romans 4:4-5
4Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation.
5However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

Faith is a gift from God. When a person believes that their faith came from their own free will ability to choose it, it becomes a "work" for them. With this "work", they justify why others are not saved and why they are. It is with this mindset that they justify why unbelievers are worthy of the Lake of Fire. In other words, they believe that unbelievers brought this fate upon themselves. This is how believers like you have turn the gift of faith into their own work. You are still wearing filthy rags.

Joe