CALVINISM IS SIMPLY THE GOSPEL BELIEVED

[GodsGrace]

Something to ponder on, as I read this--

The Role of the Early Church Fathers:
The Early Church Fathers (e.g., Irenaeus, Tertullian, Athanasius) were instrumental in forming early Christian doctrine, especially in defending the faith against heresies like Gnosticism and Arianism. Their writings were critical for the development of doctrines like the Trinity and the incarnation of Christ.

However, their teachings did not exist in a vacuum or as a fixed set of doctrines.

The Church Fathers themselves were engaged in theological debates and often disagreed with one another on certain points.

Doctrinal clarity came over time, often through councils that sought to resolve theological disputes (e.g., the Council of Nicaea in 325 A.D., which addressed Arianism and the nature of Christ).

4. Doctrinal Challenges and Heresies:
Even in the early centuries, various heresies and challenges to orthodox doctrine arose. For example, Gnosticism, Marcionism, and Arianism presented serious threats to early Christian beliefs. The early Church Fathers worked to defend what they understood to be the correct interpretation of Scripture, but they were still refining these ideas in response to these challenges.
Your assertion that the early Church had all the correct doctrines from the beginning might not fully recognize that theological understanding was an evolving process. Key doctrines like the Trinity and Christology were refined over time through councils and debates.

I agree, the creeds like the Nicene Creed and Apostles' Creed are shared by all Christians, not just Catholics. They’re foundational statements of faith that go back to the early Church and summarize core beliefs about Jesus, the Trinity, and salvation.

But when the Protestant Reformation happened, the reformers felt that the Catholic Church had added practices and teachings over time that didn’t align with Scripture-things like purgatory, prayers to saints, and the authority of the Pope. The goal of the Reformation wasn’t to throw out everything from the past, but rather to get back to what they believed was the original biblical faith.

So yes, Protestantism does share a lot with the Catholic Church, but the differences came from wanting to refocus on what they saw as more faithful to Scripture.

J.

I agree with all of the above.
On some matters, the church fathers agreed.
On some they disputed and had to come to some kind of understanding.

When I speak of the ECFs maybe I should make this more clear.
What I mean is that I trust the ECFs more than some teachers of today.
I like Ignatius of Antioch for instance.
He knew John and learned from Peter - he must surely know what Jesus taught.

An example would be this:
The necessity for baptism.
The need to do good works.

When I started posting on these forums I was horrified to learn that some believe
that,, not only are good works not necessary, but that we could commit sin by believing they're necessary
because Paul taught against it.

So I turned to the writings of the early Fathers and, in fact, they did agree that we are to do good works.

Also, some do not believe baptism is necessary but is a way to show what is happening on the inside of a person...
and outward sign of an inward condition.
The early Fathers all spoke about baptism and that we are to be baptized, which agrees with Jesus instructions to the Apostles in
the Great Commission of Matthew 28:19.

 

[Johann]

I agree with all of the above.
On some matters, the church fathers agreed.
On some they disputed and had to come to some kind of understanding.

When I speak of the ECFs maybe I should make this more clear.
What I mean is that I trust the ECFs more than some teachers of today.
I like Ignatius of Antioch for instance.
He knew John and learned from Peter - he must surely know what Jesus taught.

An example would be this:
The necessity for baptism.
The need to do good works.

When I started posting on these forums I was horrified to learn that some believe
that,, not only are good works not necessary, but that we could commit sin by believing they're necessary
because Paul taught against it.

So I turned to the writings of the early Fathers and, in fact, they did agree that we are to do good works.

Also, some do not believe baptism is necessary but is a way to show what is happening on the inside of a person...
and outward sign of an inward condition.
The early Fathers all spoke about baptism and that we are to be baptized, which agrees with Jesus instructions to the Apostles in
the Great Commission of Matthew 28:19.

Nothing wrong here-and many do believe baptism is not necessary-what I don't see, however, is baptismal regeneration in the Scriptures-also taught by some of the ECFs.

But now I know which one you like, Ignatius of Antioch, I concur. Also on the highlighted points.

Ignatius of Antioch on Baptism
Baptism as Essential for Salvation

While Ignatius does not explicitly address baptismal regeneration [A plus for me] in the same systematic way as later theologians, he emphasizes the necessity of baptism for entering the community of believers and receiving grace. In his letters, he highlights the importance of baptism as a crucial step in the faith journey.
Example: In his letter to the Ephesians, he refers to baptism as a rite that prepares the believer for a life in Christ, aligning them with the body of the Church.

J.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Ronald, these first 2 items were YOUR WORDS .

Nope! Never professed to b e able to save a soul for eternity!

said that ONLY THE HOLY SPIRIT could teach you how to behave as a Christian.
And ONLY THE HOLY SPIRIT could save someone.

Well He also teaches us through pastors and teachers. It is the Spirit that empowers what we learn to become life

Actually YOU were the one criticizing another member...it was not very nice.
I ACTUALLY SAID I COULD NOT teach you to behave as a Christian but only the Holy Spirit could...
as I also stated above.
You don't seem to grasp my post very well.

No I grasp it very well. It is you who jumped in on a discussion that has spanned many threads and hundreds of posts without knowing the lengthy background. And behold was the first almost from the onset to condemen berate ridcule and judge all sorts of believers. I am just following biblical princple here:

1. Proverbs 26:4
   Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.
2. Proverbs 26:5
   Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit.

Actually, unless we're having a general conversation, scripture should always be posted.
And, if you're going to criticize someone else for not using scripture -
then YOU, by all means, absolutely should.

And when it is about biblical I do. I do not use Scri[pture when I am challenging someone to use Scripture in their supposed biblical defenses for their position. Any one can say someone is wrong. But if they do not back it up with Gods Word then they are being disingenuous

If we didn't ever judge, Matthew 18 would make no sense.
HOWEVER, we're not on this forum TO JUDGE ANYONE but to DISCUSS DOCTRINE and the like.
The NT teaches us what to do IF A CHRISTIAN IS SINNING....
I don't think a person could sin by posting on a forum.

So we toss out biblical principles when someone is on this forum and vomiting all sorts of hideous doctrine and condemning other believers? Never!!!!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Dude. Stop. I am done even trying to reason with you.

You give Christianity a bad name

Your the fool in this discussion. so i will not answer you anymore.

And I guess I am done trying to show an acolyte of behold why someone needs to stand up to his accusations of fellow believers!

Bye bye.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Ronald, all you can do is give your personal iterpretation of a translation of a book the Catholic Church gave you, and claim we are in error because we don't agree with your personal interpretation. Remember 2 Peter 1:20 says there is to be no personal interpretation of Scripture with regard to doctrine. "Know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation"

I think it is ludicrous to believe that someone or some group, coming along 16 centuries or later think they can correct the constant teaching of Christ's Church, the Catholic Church, because they read a translation of the book that Church created and think they know better.

Nice dodge and circular reasoning.

God gave the bible and it was written long before the Catholic church (big C) was born. And what do popes do but give their opinions as well as the curia.

Well let me list some of those constant teachings of Romanism that are not constant and were borne only after Romanism conquered the fatih and forced all by penalty of death to give fealty.

Mary sinless.
Mary ever virgin
Mary is th eImmaculate Conception
Maruy is coredemptrix
Mary is co mediatirx
Mary is queen of heaven
Mary was assumed bodily into heaven
The wearing of a scapula
veneration of saints and Mary
Veneration of angels
purgatory
limbo
losing ones salvation
perpetual sacrifice of the mass
mortal sin to miss mass on sunday except for dire circumstances
confirmation


These are but a few. I had attended catholic seminary and was Catholic until I was asked to leave or face a Dominican tribunal for heresy for denying that Mary was born sinless and was ever virgin.

All these above contradict the plain teaching of the Word of God.

 

[GodsGrace]

Nothing wrong here-and many do believe baptism is not necessary-what I don't see, however, is baptismal regeneration in the Scriptures-also taught by some of the ECFs.

But now I know which one you like, Ignatius of Antioch, I concur. Also on the highlighted points.

Ignatius of Antioch on Baptism
Baptism as Essential for Salvation

While Ignatius does not explicitly address baptismal regeneration [A plus for me] in the same systematic way as later theologians, he emphasizes the necessity of baptism for entering the community of believers and receiving grace. In his letters, he highlights the importance of baptism as a crucial step in the faith journey.
Example: In his letter to the Ephesians, he refers to baptism as a rite that prepares the believer for a life in Christ, aligning them with the body of the Church.

J.

Could you explain baptismal regeneration?
Sometimes I lose track of the meaning....

 

[GodsGrace]

Nothing wrong here-and many do believe baptism is not necessary-what I don't see, however, is baptismal regeneration in the Scriptures-also taught by some of the ECFs.

But now I know which one you like, Ignatius of Antioch, I concur. Also on the highlighted points.

Ignatius of Antioch on Baptism
Baptism as Essential for Salvation

While Ignatius does not explicitly address baptismal regeneration [A plus for me] in the same systematic way as later theologians, he emphasizes the necessity of baptism for entering the community of believers and receiving grace. In his letters, he highlights the importance of baptism as a crucial step in the faith journey.
Example: In his letter to the Ephesians, he refers to baptism as a rite that prepares the believer for a life in Christ, aligning them with the body of the Church.

J.

Could you go thru the attached and tell me if you agree with it or why you think it's wrong?

What the Early Church Believed: Baptismal Regeneration

Some Protestants teach that baptism is only a sign. Here are examples of what early Christian writers had to say on the subject of baptismal regeneration.

www.catholic.com

 

[GodsGrace]

@Johann

I mean, I'm not sure.
Does baptismal regeneration mean I could ONLY BE SAVED
through baptism?

 

[Johann]

Could you go thru the attached and tell me if you agree with it or why you think it's wrong?

What the Early Church Believed: Baptismal Regeneration

Some Protestants teach that baptism is only a sign. Here are examples of what early Christian writers had to say on the subject of baptismal regeneration.

www.catholic.com

Disagree @GodsGrace

J.

 

[GodsGrace]

Nope! Never professed to b e able to save a soul for eternity!

Ronald, in post no. 178 you stated this:
And we are to rebuke, and judge when brothers are in error to save them

The above means that you feel you must rebuke and judge a brother in error IN ORDER TO SAVE HIM.
Now, you might have misspoken, but you clearly said that you could save someone through rebuking and judging.

Well He also teaches us through pastors and teachers. It is the Spirit that empowers what we learn to become life

No I grasp it very well. It is you who jumped in on a discussion that has spanned many threads and hundreds of posts without knowing the lengthy background. And behold was the first almost from the onset to condemen berate ridcule and judge all sorts of believers. I am just following biblical princple here:

1. Proverbs 26:4
   Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.
2. Proverbs 26:5
   Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit.

This is how Behold posts....he feels strongly about what he believes.
If you don't like how he posts.....DON'T REPLY TO HIM.
Easy.

And when it is about biblical I do. I do not use Scri[pture when I am challenging someone to use Scripture in their supposed biblical defenses for their position. Any one can say someone is wrong. But if they do not back it up with Gods Word then they are being disingenuous

On this we agree.
But once you post the verses....the other person can still disagree with you.
It's not our job here to change the behavior of persons.
I can assure you that some have tried and have not succeeded....

 

[GodsGrace]

Disagree @GodsGrace

J.

OK
But tell me why....

 

[Johann]

@Johann

I mean, I'm not sure.
Does baptismal regeneration mean I could ONLY BE SAVED
through baptism?

I truly appreciate honest and sincere questions, Sorella, and I’m not implying anything negative here.

Question:
Is there any saving efficacy in hudati (water)?

Matthew 3:11
“I baptize you with water for repentance, but he who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.”

Mat_3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

Mar_1:4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.

Mar_1:8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.

Luk_3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:

Joh_1:26 John answered them, saying, I baptize with water: but there standeth one among you, whom ye know not;

Joh_1:33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.

1Co_1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

Mark 1:8
“I have baptized you with water, but he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.”

Luke 3:16
“John answered them all, saying, ‘I baptize you with water, but he who is mightier than I is coming, the strap of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.’”

John 1:33
“I myself did not know him, but he who sent me to baptize with water said to me, ‘He on whom you see the Spirit descend and remain, this is he who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.’”

Acts 1:5
“For John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.”

Acts 2:4
“And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance.”

Acts 10:44-47
“While Peter was still saying these things, the Holy Spirit fell on all who heard the word. And the believers from among the circumcised who had come with Peter were amazed because the gift of the Holy Spirit was poured out even on the Gentiles. For they were hearing them speaking in tongues and extolling God. Then Peter declared, ‘Can anyone withhold water for baptizing these people, who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?’”

Acts 11:16
“And I remembered the word of the Lord, how he said, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’”

Acts 19:2
“And he said to them, ‘Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?’ And they said, ‘No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.’”

1 Corinthians 12:13
“For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit.”

Rom_6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

1Co_1:13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

1Co_1:14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;

1Co_1:15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.

1Co_1:16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.

1Co_10:2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

1Co_12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

1Co_15:29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

Gal_3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

What do you see @GodsGrace?

J.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Ronald, in post no. 178 you stated this:
And we are to rebuke, and judge when brothers are in error to save them

That save was spoken as to deliver them from their error! Not salvation from sin. Sorry I was not more specific. But deliver and save are both the same word in Greek.

This is how Behold posts....he feels strongly about what he believes.
If you don't like how he posts.....DON'T REPLY TO HIM.
Easy.

So you defend him when he rebukes, insults and condemns, and when I do the same I am guilty. OKAY. We are done . have the last word. YOu seem to be a staunch acolyte of Behold and hold him faultless while you condemn and judge others for doing what he does.

 

[GodsGrace]

I truly appreciate honest and sincere questions, Sorella, and I’m not implying anything negative here.

Question:
Is there any saving efficacy in hudati (water)?

Matthew 3:11
“I baptize you with water for repentance, but he who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.”

Mat_3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

Mar_1:4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.

Mar_1:8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.

Luk_3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:

Joh_1:26 John answered them, saying, I baptize with water: but there standeth one among you, whom ye know not;

Joh_1:33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.

1Co_1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

Mark 1:8
“I have baptized you with water, but he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.”

Luke 3:16
“John answered them all, saying, ‘I baptize you with water, but he who is mightier than I is coming, the strap of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.’”

John 1:33
“I myself did not know him, but he who sent me to baptize with water said to me, ‘He on whom you see the Spirit descend and remain, this is he who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.’”

Acts 1:5
“For John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.”

Acts 2:4
“And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance.”

Acts 10:44-47
“While Peter was still saying these things, the Holy Spirit fell on all who heard the word. And the believers from among the circumcised who had come with Peter were amazed because the gift of the Holy Spirit was poured out even on the Gentiles. For they were hearing them speaking in tongues and extolling God. Then Peter declared, ‘Can anyone withhold water for baptizing these people, who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?’”

Acts 11:16
“And I remembered the word of the Lord, how he said, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’”

Acts 19:2
“And he said to them, ‘Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?’ And they said, ‘No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.’”

1 Corinthians 12:13
“For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit.”

Rom_6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

1Co_1:13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

1Co_1:14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;

1Co_1:15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.

1Co_1:16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.

1Co_10:2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

1Co_12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

1Co_15:29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

Gal_3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

What do you see @GodsGrace?

J.

I know both Catholic theology and Protestant theology and sometimes I do get a little mixed up.

Paragraph 1213 in the Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches something that even the priests I know do not teach.
They DO teach that a person must be baptized - for the forgiveness of sins. Let me post 1213 first - and maybe this isn't the right place to discuss this...



Paragraph 1213 CCC
Holy Baptism is the basis of the whole Christian life, the gateway to life in the Spirit (vitae spiritualis ianua),4 and the door which gives access to the other sacraments. Through Baptism we are freed from sin and reborn as sons of God; we become members of Christ, are incorporated into the Church and made sharers in her mission: "Baptism is the sacrament of regeneration through water in the word."

If baptism makes us sons of God....everyone in the CC would be a son of God and would be saved, but this is not true.
They have a way of explaining this and getting around what it says. (which I won't get into).

As far as I can understand, we're saved when we become born again. In John 3:5 Jesus said that we must be born of water and the spirit.
I do believe He meant physical water at birth...the first born experience....and then BORN AGAIN....the spiritually born experience. We must be born AGAIN. Once physically and once spritually.

John baptized with water...
Jesus baptizes with the Holy Spirit, with fire.

IF regeneration means that we must be baptized OR WE ARE NOT SAVED....
then I would have a problem with this.

That's my understanding of baptism.

 

[Johann]

OK
But tell me why....

The early Church Fathers did hold various views on baptism, and while some emphasized its importance, others highlighted the necessity of faith. For example, Ignatius of Antioch spoke of baptism as important but did not provide an exhaustive doctrine on its salvific efficacy.

Glad he did, I don't see any saving efficacy in water @GodsGrace..


The Early Church Fathers (ECF) provided various perspectives on the concept of Spirit baptism, often reflecting their understanding of the Holy Spirit's role in the life of believers and the significance of baptism. Here are some notable references and interpretations related to Spirit baptism from the Early Church Fathers:

1. Ignatius of Antioch (c. 35–107 AD)
Letter to the Ephesians: Ignatius emphasizes the importance of the Holy Spirit in the life of the believer. While he does not specifically use the term "Spirit baptism," he speaks of the necessity of being united in spirit and faith, indicating a belief in the transformative power of the Holy Spirit.
Key Quote: “It is better to be a Christian and not be baptized than to be baptized and not be a Christian.”

2. Justin Martyr (c. 100–165 AD)
First Apology: Justin discusses the role of the Holy Spirit in the lives of believers, describing how Christians receive the Holy Spirit through baptism and emphasizing the transformative nature of this experience.
Key Quote: “For we have been taught that the Spirit of God is in those who are baptized, and that they are made partakers of the divine nature.”

3. Irenaeus of Lyons (c. 130–202 AD)
Against Heresies: Irenaeus speaks of the Holy Spirit being given to the baptized, linking the act of baptism with receiving the Spirit. He stresses the importance of the Holy Spirit in guiding believers into all truth.
Key Quote: “For as the water is necessary for life, so is the Spirit necessary for the regeneration of man.”

4. Tertullian (c. 155–240 AD)
On Baptism: Tertullian addresses the significance of baptism and the role of the Holy Spirit in the believer’s life, asserting that baptism is necessary for the remission of sins and the receiving of the Holy Spirit.
Key Quote: “We are washed in the water of baptism, that we may receive the Holy Spirit.”

5. Cyril of Jerusalem (c. 313–386 AD)
Catechetical Lectures: Cyril outlines the process of baptism and the receiving of the Holy Spirit, linking the two closely and emphasizing the need for both to achieve salvation.
Key Quote: “For after the water is poured out, the Holy Spirit comes down upon the water; and so you have both water and Spirit.”

6. Augustine of Hippo (354–430 AD)
On the Spirit and the Sacraments: Augustine discusses the relationship between the Holy Spirit and the sacraments, including baptism. He views Spirit baptism as a crucial element of salvation and spiritual transformation.
Key Quote: “Without the Holy Spirit, baptism is a mere rite, devoid of power.”

I have given you several verses @GodsGrace -what did you see? Baptismal regeneration?

J.

 

[GodsGrace]

The early Church Fathers did hold various views on baptism, and while some emphasized its importance, others highlighted the necessity of faith. For example, Ignatius of Antioch spoke of baptism as important but did not provide an exhaustive doctrine on its salvific efficacy.

Glad he did, I don't see any saving efficacy in water @GodsGrace..


The Early Church Fathers (ECF) provided various perspectives on the concept of Spirit baptism, often reflecting their understanding of the Holy Spirit's role in the life of believers and the significance of baptism. Here are some notable references and interpretations related to Spirit baptism from the Early Church Fathers:

1. Ignatius of Antioch (c. 35–107 AD)
Letter to the Ephesians: Ignatius emphasizes the importance of the Holy Spirit in the life of the believer. While he does not specifically use the term "Spirit baptism," he speaks of the necessity of being united in spirit and faith, indicating a belief in the transformative power of the Holy Spirit.
Key Quote: “It is better to be a Christian and not be baptized than to be baptized and not be a Christian.”

This is why I love Ignatius....he always agrees with ME!!
LOL

Love the Key Quote.

2. Justin Martyr (c. 100–165 AD)
First Apology: Justin discusses the role of the Holy Spirit in the lives of believers, describing how Christians receive the Holy Spirit through baptism and emphasizing the transformative nature of this experience.
Key Quote: “For we have been taught that the Spirit of God is in those who are baptized, and that they are made partakers of the divine nature.”

But isn't the spirit of God also in those that have NOT been baptized yet?
This is what I mean....
I see change in persons that come to believe but are not baptized yet.

3. Irenaeus of Lyons (c. 130–202 AD)
Against Heresies: Irenaeus speaks of the Holy Spirit being given to the baptized, linking the act of baptism with receiving the Spirit. He stresses the importance of the Holy Spirit in guiding believers into all truth.
Key Quote: “For as the water is necessary for life, so is the Spirit necessary for the regeneration of man.”

Sounds like man cannot be generated UNLESS he gets baptized.

4. Tertullian (c. 155–240 AD)
On Baptism: Tertullian addresses the significance of baptism and the role of the Holy Spirit in the believer’s life, asserting that baptism is necessary for the remission of sins and the receiving of the Holy Spirit.
Key Quote: “We are washed in the water of baptism, that we may receive the Holy Spirit.”

Also, I understand baptism for the forgiveness of sins to be different from baptism in or of the Holy Spirit.
Baptism in the Holy Spirit gives power both for living and for witnessing.

5. Cyril of Jerusalem (c. 313–386 AD)
Catechetical Lectures: Cyril outlines the process of baptism and the receiving of the Holy Spirit, linking the two closely and emphasizing the need for both to achieve salvation.
Key Quote: “For after the water is poured out, the Holy Spirit comes down upon the water; and so you have both water and Spirit.”

We're getting too far from the biblical times for me.

6. Augustine of Hippo (354–430 AD)
On the Spirit and the Sacraments: Augustine discusses the relationship between the Holy Spirit and the sacraments, including baptism. He views Spirit baptism as a crucial element of salvation and spiritual transformation.
Key Quote: “Without the Holy Spirit, baptism is a mere rite, devoid of power.”

You must know by now that I don't care for Augustine.
He's the one that changed THE REASON for baptizing babies.

I have given you several verses @GodsGrace -what did you see? Baptismal regeneration?

J.

Actually, the above DOES make it sound like baptismal regeneration is correct.
But that would mean that we cannot change if we're not baptized.

 

[GodsGrace]

That save was spoken as to deliver them from their error! Not salvation from sin. Sorry I was not more specific. But deliver and save are both the same word in Greek.

So you defend him when he rebukes, insults and condemns, and when I do the same I am guilty. OKAY. We are done . have the last word. YOu seem to be a staunch acolyte of Behold and hold him faultless while you condemn and judge others for doing what he does.

I don't even agree with Behold.
OK about the "save" statement...no problem.

I see a difference between what Behold does and what you did.
He posts the same to everyone....that's how he posts.
On a different forum, he'd be banned lickity split.

What you're doing is trying to "fix" people.
Only the Holy Spirit can fix people.
Also, I was referring to what you stated to Eternally Grateful.
I didn't think that was very nice.
I wasn't protecting Behold...he doesn't need my protection.

LAST WORD !

 

[Johann]

I know both Catholic theology and Protestant theology and sometimes I do get a little mixed up.

Paragraph 1213 in the Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches something that even the priests I know do not teach.
They DO teach that a person must be baptized - for the forgiveness of sins. Let me post 1213 first - and maybe this isn't the right place to discuss this...



Paragraph 1213 CCC
Holy Baptism is the basis of the whole Christian life, the gateway to life in the Spirit (vitae spiritualis ianua),4 and the door which gives access to the other sacraments. Through Baptism we are freed from sin and reborn as sons of God; we become members of Christ, are incorporated into the Church and made sharers in her mission: "Baptism is the sacrament of regeneration through water in the word."

If baptism makes us sons of God....everyone in the CC would be a son of God and would be saved, but this is not true.
They have a way of explaining this and getting around what it says. (which I won't get into).

As far as I can understand, we're saved when we become born again. In John 3:5 Jesus said that we must be born of water and the spirit.
I do believe He meant physical water at birth...the first born experience....and then BORN AGAIN....the spiritually born experience. We must be born AGAIN. Once physically and once spritually.

John baptized with water...
Jesus baptizes with the Holy Spirit, with fire.

IF regeneration means that we must be baptized OR WE ARE NOT SAVED....
then I would have a problem with this.

That's my understanding of baptism.

Give me a little time to get back to you-there’s a lot of noise and distractions right now, and my mood is a bit off. Plus, I've got some opponents who seem to be hoping for my downfall, and today has felt like a day of spiritual warfare.

Maybe @mailmandan or @marks can offer you a response in the meantime-they're the only two I fully trust on this Forum. And please don’t take this as me avoiding your question about water baptism or what comes first.

Heading to the gym now and aiming for an early night.

J.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

EG, maybe some day we'll be on the same thread and could post regarding the CC.
@Augustin56 does not do what we Protestants do.... He follows what his church teaches. And with his brain.
as you very well know, we read scripture and then decide what we agree with and what we do not agree with.
This has caused many denominations...frankly, I think it's a disgrace to the Christian faith.
Who can know the truth when there are so many truths to choose from.

And re the CC:
There are many misconceptions regarding the CC.
I don't think you should dislike it as much as you do.
There are problems, yes, but I see no reason to have such harsh feeling for that church.

Actually I do not do what he does. I do not blindly follow anyone. I will be held accountable by God himsel;f based on what I believe. Not what some church (protestant or catholic) tells me. In Fact I am warned to test each spirit. To be more like the bereans, who searched the scriptures to make sure what Paul said was right. Not just blidnly follow him.

I agree, There are so many different beliefs. But I blame this on satan, Not denominations. Satan has had the history of the world to but a little bit of leaven in the truth, and that leaven exposed into a large lie.. It is nothing new, it did nto start with the catholic church or any protestant church. It started with Adam and Eve, and has continued to go since then.

What misconceptions do you see regarding the CC.. I am open to discuss them. I do not dislike the CC per say, i dislike what they are doing. they are leading 1000's to hell. Just like the jews did. They reject the pure message of grace. and just like the jew. they add their own works, something Paul call the galation Church fools for. something he spent his whole ministry trying to fight. yet here we are 2000 years later with another group of people doing the exact same thing the jews did.

1. They add works to the gospel
2. They claim they were picked by God
3. they claim they have the only truth
4. They claim they have the truth, everyone else does not.

I can go on and on and on.

What I said was true,

I can not stand a person who attacks other people who does the same things he is attacking others for.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

That save was spoken as to deliver them from their error! Not salvation from sin. Sorry I was not more specific. But deliver and save are both the same word in Greek.

So you defend him when he rebukes, insults and condemns, and when I do the same I am guilty. OKAY. We are done . have the last word. YOu seem to be a staunch acolyte of Behold and hold him faultless while you condemn and judge others for doing what he does.

dude, Your pride is so deep. I doubt you would see the truth if it stared you in the face.

Don't worry about what Behold did wrong. if he is in error. god will take care of him. Worry about when YOU make a mistake. Take the log out of your eye before you try to remove the spec from someone elses.

I do not know what it is about reformed people. but probably next to some roman Catholics. they have got to be the most hateful and arrogant people I have ever met.. They attack anyone who disagrees with them, and if someone comes in and tries to get them to calm down. They turn that wrath on those people like you have done here.

what a joke!!!