Past The Exuberance of Victory: Assessing MAGA's enemies

[Wrangler]

Humans have no excuse to behave like animals

Humans ARE animals. As I said, we are not plants.

I've observed for decades that civilization depends on barbarity; that is the civilized must be more violently capable and willing to use that violent capability that the barbarian or the rule of law will be replaced by the rule of the jungle. The world is, always was and always will be ruled by the effective use of force. Let's keep it real, AJ!

 

[Wrangler]

Therefore the acquisition of land is not justified in taking the lives of rightful owners because this is not sanctioned by the Creator.

You have a fundamental misunderstanding of God given freedom. We are not free to only do what the Creator sanctions; we are free to do anything but what he prohibits.

Here is another simple justification. We are made in the image of God and God is a warrior. Do you just ignore that because it is inconvenient to your doctrine?

And there are way more justifications to take land beyond divine direction. The Law of Economics states that resources tend to the best user.

Sharing is not killing people to steal their land and it’s resources. It’s not bombing innocent women and children and calling them “collateral damage” or victims of “friendly fire”…terms invented by murderers to make it less offensive.

You are obtuse. Murder and war are not the same thing. From yesterday's devotional reading Deuteronomy 2-3.

V 2:34 In every town we utterly destroyed men, women and children ...​

V3:3 We struke him down until not a single survivor was left.​

These are the words of Moses referring to actions he ordered, not condemning these acts as murder, as you are want to claim.

 

[Wrangler]

I am indoctrinated???

Yes, painfully so. If the land you live in was not conquered by the Europeans but by Muslims, you would not have 50 years experience of Bible study.

 

[Aunty Jane]

hmmmmm!

Read my post carefully……

”Israel never took land off anyone for the sake of conquest and military superiority.”
The Promised Land was God given, not taken from rightful owners. It was given back by the rightful owner, and given to the ones he promised it to.

Israel did not conquer other territories, they just defended their own land with God’s backing.
Why did foreign invaders want Israel’s land? Because it was a choice piece of real estate…..it had what other nations desired….sound familiar?

 

[Aunty Jane]

Humans ARE animals. As I said, we are not plants.

I've observed for decades that civilization depends on barbarity; that is the civilized must be more violently capable and willing to use that violent capability that the barbarian or the rule of law will be replaced by the rule of the jungle. The world is, always was and always will be ruled by the effective use of force. Let's keep it real, AJ!

Barbarity is justifiable in your book….a desirable attribute because “might makes right”?
Are you hearing yourself right now?

Tell me what “civilized” means Wrangler…

One definition given says…….”Civilized is an adjective that describes the very opposite of barbarity. A civilized person is polite and courteous; he knows how to say "please" and "thank you." A civilized group of people is characterized by being socially and technologically advanced.”

Does the advancement of “civilization” actually mean what you are suggesting? I see the exact opposite.
You have redefined what it means to be “civilized” to justify your implementation of “barbarity” as a human right.
Indeed. Let’s keep it real….

 

[Aunty Jane]

Here is another simple justification. We are made in the image of God and God is a warrior. Do you just ignore that because it is inconvenient to your doctrine?

And there are way more justifications to take land beyond divine direction. The Law of Economics states that resources tend to the best user.

You are good at justification apparently….tell it to the judge and see where it gets you…

God was a warrior in Israelite times because he defended his people against bigger and stronger nations, militarily. This was to show these foreign powers that their useless gods were no match for Israel’s God.
There was a reason back then…and a reason why Jesus changed all that. Now that God’s Messiah was in the world, everything changed. When Jesus walked the earth, Israel had no military force. They were an oppressed people, living under the dominance of stronger world powers…..why did God not fight for them then? You tell me.

The Warrior that Jesus will become, wipes out Satan’s entire system of governance and takes down all who support them.

You are obtuse. Murder and war are not the same thing. From yesterday's devotional reading Deuteronomy 2-3.
V 2:34 In every town we utterly destroyed men, women and children ...V3:3 We struke him down until not a single survivor was left.
These are the words of Moses referring to actions he ordered, not condemning these acts as murder, as you are want to claim.

Murder is the UNLAWFUL taking of innocent lives…..war is murder in every sense of the word because the innocents are killed along with their parents. Who gave them permission to do that? Even Israel had to be sanctioned to eliminate entire wicked nations from existence.

What makes something UNLAWFUL Wrangler? It does not have God’s sanction. No war of man over political or selfish agendas has God’s sanction. He is not the ruler of this world…satan is, so whose laws are you obeying? What are you offering as justification, that God will never accept?

You appear to suffer from your patriotic indoctrination to the degree that you do not know where your first loyalty as a “Christian” has to be placed……God’s laws can NEVER be put in second place to the laws of man. (Acts 5:29)

Where will you stand when Christ comes to ask who has proven their loyalty to God by their obedience to his stated commands?
We will all find out soon enough….won’t we?

 

[quietthinker]

Humans ARE animals. As I said, we are not plants.

I've observed for decades that civilization depends on barbarity; that is the civilized must be more violently capable and willing to use that violent capability that the barbarian or the rule of law will be replaced by the rule of the jungle. The world is, always was and always will be ruled by the effective use of force. Let's keep it real, AJ!

Jesus came to reveal a new paradigm ie, the paradigm of God's reality......and we rejected him.

Man on the other hand is so fixated with his 'barbarian' paradigm since his fall ( even many calling themselves christians) that he insists on projecting it onto God.....as if God were like one of themselves. The pagans fashion their gods in the exact same way.

 

[quietthinker]

Read my post carefully……

”Israel never took land off anyone for the sake of conquest and military superiority.”
The Promised Land was God given, not taken from rightful owners. It was given back by the rightful owner, and given to the ones he promised it to.

Israel did not conquer other territories, they just defended their own land with God’s backing.
Why did foreign invaders want Israel’s land? Because it was a choice piece of real estate…..it had what other nations desired….sound familiar?

hmmmmm

 

[Wrangler]

”Israel never took land off anyone for the sake of conquest and military superiority.”

False. I know your reliance on deconstruction hopes to paint far more noble motives for their actions. This is why I start with the facts and jettison your commentary.

Putting aside motivation, the fact is Israel DID take land by conquest, by military superiority.

This is the WHAT. You hope to divert attention by focusing on the WHY. The why you assert does not change the fact. War has been a part of life since the beginning.

 

[Aunty Jane]

False. I know your reliance on deconstruction hopes to paint far more noble motives for their actions. This is why I start with the facts and jettison your commentary.

Putting aside motivation, the fact is Israel DID take land by conquest, by military superiority.

This is the WHAT. You hope to divert attention by focusing on the WHY. The why you assert does not change the fact. War has been a part of life since the beginning.

There is this pig headed blindness that attaches itself to those whose patriotism supplants their Christianity….I’ll let Jesus do the judging…..you really cannot see the forest for the trees though…can you?

 

[Brakelite]

What is this patriotic blindness you manifest Wrangler? Do you really believe that “lifting a finger to prevent being ruled by Satanists” is something humans need to do, when God handed the world over to the devil for that very reason? (Luke 4: 5-7) You really think that God is not in control of all that is taking place as a prelude to Armageddon? You think he needs Christ’s disciples to elect a leader of any nation? What happened to being “NO PART OF THE WORLD” because of who is pulling all the strings? (1 John 5:19)

It’s what you ignore to implement and justify your patriotism that seems to be the problem...

That was for God’s Kingdom...not man’s.
This expression “over-spiritualization” seems to cancel out the one thing that Scripture is....”spiritualized”.
Your approach is “under-spiritualized”......to the point of being not spiritual at all. We will all be held accountable for what we accept as truth....and how we carry out God’s will rather than our own. And yes, a humble Christian can fight on their knees, with nothing more than God’s word....our only legitimate weapon.

The “acquisition of power” in any nation, is not in our hands....it is in God’s hands, but you seem to judge him as inadequate to the task, so you must assume that he needs our help? I assure you he can take care of his own business without us.
Those raised with a patriotic heart, are trained to put their “Christianity” in second place to their “nationalism”. You have them in the wrong order.....these compete for our loyalty....they are polar opposites....completely incompatible.

An empty plea I’m afraid, when God has told us to butt-out of any participation in this world’s political affairs. Christ asked you first, and you made a choice.
Your consent was your own, nothing to do with God. Your words here are said as if Trump is Christ’s conquering hero.
We will all be judged on our ability to control our emotions (patriotism) and do as we are told. God has no place in his Kingdom for those who do not trust him to do as he has stated in his word.

You would obviously agree that to render unto Caesar that which is his, and render unto God that which is His, is a spiritual truth to be honoured. The problem the church has these days is in discerning what actually belongs to each camp. Also, I believe there were many genuine Christians being led by their conscience to vote for Trump, thus giving to Caesar his due. They, while believing it their God given duty to do so, did not go so far as to align that duty with the idea that Trump is God's anointed servant and the saviour of the American Church. Nevertheless, they voted for someone they believed would better promote freedom to exercise their religious duty in rendering to God that which is God's. Any sane, sensible, observant Christian would have recognised the attacks that Satan, through the political, educational, legal and media apparatus, had made against family and the laws, and the people of God. Those voters, at least many of them, would have also recognised that only God can change hearts and minds, and that the voting for Trump cannot do that work. But it can do work in as much as Caesar is given authority and power to bring common sense back into American society, just as we would hope Caesar can do in Australia. Where I would draw the line, is not in refusing to give Caesar his due as you espouse, but in refusing to use Caesar or allow Caesar to give the church power which is outside of his perview. That is my greatest fear as far as the current American situation stands. That America would create an image to the medieval church/ state union as per the prophecy of Revelation 13. An image to the Catholic beast. That people voted for Trump doesn't bother me. What bothers me is the present relationship between church and state. The amalgamation between Caesar and God is purely a Roman Catholic concept, totally contradictory to the intents and beliefs of those founding fathers who wrote the constitution based on protestant principles that repudiated the Catholic mindset and dogmas of the dark ages.

 

[Brakelite]

Humans are animals! We aren't plants. It's just sad that you cannot address the OP. Just acting like a troll, engaging in personal attacks as a way to avert attention from the soulful needs we have now.

Sadly, the European invaders of Australia relegated the indigenous people of Australia to exactly that...flora and fauna, thus justifying their genocide.

 

[Wrangler]

From today's devotional reading, more Biblical guidance to war:
Deuteronomy 4:32-34
New Revised Standard Version Updated Edition
32 “For ask now about former ages, long before your own, ever since the day that God created human beings on the earth; ask from one end of heaven to the other: Has anything so great as this ever happened, or has its like ever been heard of? 33 Has any people ever heard the voice of a god speaking out of a fire, as you have heard, and lived? 34 Or has any god ever attempted to go and take a nation for himself from the midst of another nation, by trials, by signs and wonders, by war, by a mighty hand and an outstretched arm, and by terrifying displays of power, as the Lord your God did for you in Egypt before your very eyes?

 

[Wrangler]

There is this pig headed blindness that attaches itself to those whose patriotism supplants their Christianity

Not blindness but realism. No one is only a Christian.

In the West, we have civic responsibility, family responsibility and personal responsibility. There is an expression, cleanliness before godliness. There is no excuse to not bath, brush your teeth, not to care for family (Matthew 15:5), and not live up to the duties of citizenship - which is just an extended family.

You are the pig headed one, totally refusing to address the topic of the OP. You've made a bad choice in making yourself irrelevant in the world around you. Don't worry though! America's greatness will fall on you, being part of Western Civilization down under.

 

[Aunty Jane]

From today's devotional reading, more Biblical guidance to war:
Deuteronomy 4:32-34
New Revised Standard Version Updated Edition
32 “For ask now about former ages, long before your own, ever since the day that God created human beings on the earth; ask from one end of heaven to the other: Has anything so great as this ever happened, or has its like ever been heard of? 33 Has any people ever heard the voice of a god speaking out of a fire, as you have heard, and lived? 34 Or has any god ever attempted to go and take a nation for himself from the midst of another nation, by trials, by signs and wonders, by war, by a mighty hand and an outstretched arm, and by terrifying displays of power, as the Lord your God did for you in Egypt before your very eyes?

LOL….are you serious? You think this is justification for war? To whom was this addressed? And what wars was this referring to? What era is this talking about?

Good grief Wrangler…..your thirst for political victory and support for any resulting bloodshed of your elected officials, overrides any instruction by Christ and his apostles to be “peacemakers”…..and to NOT be involved in the conflicts of the nations. We are specifically commanded NOT to “return evil for evil” in the Christian era. We are not Israelites in an era of God’s wars. That era is over, ushering in the peaceful rule of the Christ in his followers.

“Never pay back evil for evil to anyone. Respect what is right in the sight of all men. If possible, so far as it depends on you, be at peace with all men. Never take your own revenge, beloved, but leave room for the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. . . .Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.” (Romans 12:17-21)

Is war conquering evil with good…or are you simply paying back evil for evil? What then makes you superior to your enemies in God’s eyes?
We are told by Jesus himself NOT to be “part of the world”….(John 18:36) so we put ourselves in line for adverse judgment if we disobey the Christ….

Can you tell me why the nation of Israel (these very same people whom Moses addressed in your quoted passage) were subjugated by gentile powers all through their sad and sorry history? Why did Christ not send his nation to war with Israel’s enemies? Why did he not organize the Christians into an army to defeat Rome….and free his people?…..did he not say that “legions of angels” were at his command? Who could have come off victorious against him in those circumstances?

Cherry picked verses do make make something true. Context tells the story….not biased inference.

Christ himself will have to take off the blinkers….

 

[Wrangler]

LOL….are you serious? You think this is justification for war?

First, there is justification for war. Do you deny it?

 

[Aunty Jane]

First, there is justification for war. Do you deny it?

Do I deny that there ever was a justification for war? NO.
But the wars spoken about in Israel’s day, were for the defense of the Promised Land…gifted to Israel by God hmself….this is the reason why he defended them. But no wars were justified in the Christian Era.

You've made a bad choice in making yourself irrelevant in the world around you.

Irrelevant? How is it irrelevant to obey Christ and form the basis of your own salvation?
It is disobeying Christ that gets you off side with God.

Don't worry though! America's greatness will fall on you, being part of Western Civilization down under.

Have you ever seen The Truman Show” Wrangler? Some people get it…for others the message is lost on them completely.

America’s ‘greatness’ is a sad illusion…..you are all victims of clever propaganda…..you are fed this illusion from birth and grow up thinking that you live in the greatest nation on earth…..you fall for the whole MAGA thing because you thought that America used to be great, when in actual fact it never was that great in the first place. It just taught its citizens by way of mass media that “Leave it to Beaver’s” family was the typical American family….and “Father Knows Best” was also the American norm….think about all the other shows that carried that theme?…….but I wonder how many people thought that it was real, when their own family life was nothing like that. Do you have any idea how propaganda works?…and who promotes it?

Hitler used it by making newsreel movies about how well the Jews were treated in the camps…like ‘a home away from home’. The German people had no idea how far from the truth it was until it was exposed.
God will expose all of it before he brings the curtain down…..then you will see how sadly mistaken you are.

 

[Wrangler]

Do I deny that there ever was a justification for war? NO.
But the wars spoken about in Israel’s day, were for the defense of the Promised Land…gifted to Israel by God hmself….this is the reason why he defended them. But no wars were justified in the Christian Era.

Ridiculous!!

We fundamentally disagree. Hence, your refusal to address the OP, enemies of MAGA. You’ve made yourself irrelevant. Go be irrelevant in todays wars.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Ridiculous!!

We fundamentally disagree. Hence, your refusal to address the OP, enemies of MAGA. You’ve made yourself irrelevant. Go be irrelevant in todays wars.

Have you heard of community responsibility Wrangler? If you read about Israel’s history, you will see that when the nation was led astray by corrupt leaders, the faithful suffered along with the unfaithful. When Israel was conquered by Babylon and taken into exile far away from their homeland, the faithful ones like Daniel and his companions remained faithful to God even when the bulk of the Israelites compromised with the Babylonians. It shows that what the majority do, holds no sway with God.

When apostasy was foretold for the Christian faith, it was “already at work” towards the end of the first century. The apostles were acting as a restraint until the last words of the Christian Scriptures were penned by the apostle John…..his Revelation, which was pictorial for our day (the time of the end) and his last three letters. Upon his death, the restraint was removed and the apostasy grew rapidly resulting in the Roman takeover of the church, and it’s present state of corruption….in its many manifestations known today collectively as Christendom.

2 Thess 2
“Let no one deceive you in any way, for that day will not come unless the rebellion [apostasy] comes first and the lawless one is revealed, the one destined for destruction. . . . .And you know what is now restraining him, so that he may be revealed when his time comes. . . . .For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work, but only until the one who now restrains it is removed. . . . .The coming of the lawless one is apparent in the working of Satan, who uses all power, signs, lying wonders, and every kind of wicked deception for those who are perishing because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion, leading them to believe what is false, so that all who have not believed the truth but took pleasure in unrighteousness will be condemned.” (NRSVUE)

The majority in Christendom support their nation’s politics and any resulting bloodshed is justified in their eyes….but not to God or his son, who told us to be “peacemakers” and not to meddle in this world’s affairs.

The devil rules this world, (1 John 5:19) so no matter who you vote for, the devil is the only one who has candidates in government. (Luke 4:5-7) Propaganda serves these candidates well because politicians rarely carry out what they promise…especially in a so-called democracy. The system has ways to sabotage the opposition, no matter who is in power. It’s the power behind the power you have to worry about, because there are no good guys…..there is only the lesser of two evils in a two party system. It’s up for grabs who is the better pretender. Australia is on the same treadmill…..red or blue…blue or red…no one can do what only God’s Kingdom can…..but some will pretend that they can bring in God’s kingdom on their own….

No power corrupts like absolute power….

I’d rather be irrelevant in this world, than irrelevant to God when he demands an accounting about how we spent our time. Whose interests have we served?

 

[Aunty Jane]

You would obviously agree that to render unto Caesar that which is his, and render unto God that which is His, is a spiritual truth to be honoured. The problem the church has these days is in discerning what actually belongs to each camp. Also, I believe there were many genuine Christians being led by their conscience to vote for Trump, thus giving to Caesar his due. They, while believing it their God given duty to do so, did not go so far as to align that duty with the idea that Trump is God's anointed servant and the saviour of the American Church. Nevertheless, they voted for someone they believed would better promote freedom to exercise their religious duty in rendering to God that which is God's. Any sane, sensible, observant Christian would have recognised the attacks that Satan, through the political, educational, legal and media apparatus, had made against family and the laws, and the people of God. Those voters, at least many of them, would have also recognised that only God can change hearts and minds, and that the voting for Trump cannot do that work. But it can do work in as much as Caesar is given authority and power to bring common sense back into American society, just as we would hope Caesar can do in Australia. Where I would draw the line, is not in refusing to give Caesar his due as you espouse, but in refusing to use Caesar or allow Caesar to give the church power which is outside of his perview. That is my greatest fear as far as the current American situation stands. That America would create an image to the medieval church/ state union as per the prophecy of Revelation 13. An image to the Catholic beast. That people voted for Trump doesn't bother me. What bothers me is the present relationship between church and state. The amalgamation between Caesar and God is purely a Roman Catholic concept, totally contradictory to the intents and beliefs of those founding fathers who wrote the constitution based on protestant principles that repudiated the Catholic mindset and dogmas of the dark ages.

If Jesus told us to be “NO PART“ of the world under satan’s control, (1 John 5:19) then voting in any candidate or party is a vote for satan, not Jesus, who said his kingdom is not from this source (John 18:36)…..not from this world….nothing whatever to do with it.

Satan actually admitted that world rulership had been delivered to him, and that he could give it to whomever he wished…..what is that telling us? (Luke 4:5-7) Jesus did not deny it.

When Jesus said to ‘give Caesar the things that are Caesar’s’, he was speaking about taxes and the things that Caesar has a right to demand from his subjects.…within limits set by God.
So what were the things that a Christian needed to ‘give to God’? Their exclusive devotion and loyalty to the King of the only government that will do what it promises….God’s Kingdom.

If we have our citizenship in the Kingdom of God, then we cannot have a foot in both camps. God has given satan what he asked for, rulership of the fallen human race…..but not indefinitely. His time is almost up.